one 2 a.m. too many

my two cents,

i don't really care for this photo that much. it is nice, has good aesthetic quality, technically it worked out, but i find whatever that is in front of his face behind him and out of focus very distracting. Highlights are in the right spots, but so?

And why do you always get those guys that insist on changing the picture, LEAVE it alone, it's his picture not yours, go take your own photo. let's see if it will make POW!

Anyone, regardless of their experience, should feel free to offer an observation concerning what it is about the photograph that they respond to. I think it's fair to say that learning how to appreciate the nuances of a photograph is, however, not intuative and requires some training and experience before they should feel qualified to make the determination that the photographer has come up short in his attempt. If you want to raise an issue despite your lack of experience, feel free to do so in an open ended way.

 

On the other hand, there are photographers following this thread who seem to me to have the experience necessary to make a judgement, if they are so inclined.

 

I don't know how widespread retaliation is these days; I know it used to be a problem for outspoken critics. I guess offering a detailed diplomatic explanation still might not prevent it, but one would hope the the truly constructive critics would not be intimidated.

 

My concern is more with people not knowing what they don't know.

A terrific photograph killed by bad printing? that remark is not only wrong, but it's insulting as well. Iv'e skipped through a few of these remarks and it's obvious that some of you folks spend more time nit picking and tearing apart any picture you can in order to justify calling it a bad photo than you spend shooting. Can anyone enjoy this shot for what it is? This is a natural shot taken in a natural setting, It's real, It's not a posed studio shot where the photographer was in complete control. Their are many elements in this shot that the photographer had no control over, and in my opinion the he did a great job of pulling this shot off. It's not a perfect shot, but I think thats what makes it good. I would have been proud to take a shot like this.

Carl,

 

You're right, and that's what I meant. If a critic doesn't like a pic and can't work up the enthusiasm to rate or comment on it, then they shouldn't leave a half-baked condemnation either. Couldn't agree more.

 

And no Doug, no one has to rate a picture at all. You're correct. I hope the paragraph above clarifies that.

 

 

 

Amazing feedback on this image, i read through them all and I think I learned a lot.I've been working on my own available light photoraphy and this was inspirational.

 

I find the spot above the hand a bit distracting, and I do agree w/ the grey on the wall posting... but most small format black & white goes into that group... what a great expression. the subject seems completely comfortable and either unaware of the shooter or unwary.

 

great shot!

"When you get a bricklayer to build you a wall and the wall falls over, no one says you can't complain because you couldn't wield a trowel for love or money, do they? (...) Yet so many artists (or those who claim to be artists) get all huffy when they receive a contrary criticism. (...) Criticism requires honesty on both sides of the equation - the artist and the critic. The critic has a right to evaluate an artwork, and the artist has a right of reply. This is often forgotten on these pages. I don't know why. There seems to be a view going around that there is no such thing as bad art, and that therefore any adverse comments are prima facie invalid, perhaps borne of jealousy, native nastiness or clique loyalty." - Tony Dummett.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Tony might have touched here a general issue that goes beyond this POW itself and by far, but I hope the moderators will leave this as it is. I couldn't agree more with Tony here. It reached the extent of some people e-mailing to me to tell me I was "bad-mouthing" other members, and the next thing I knew was that these people were all over my folders with insulting posts rather than critiques, and of course low rates. Tony is certainly right to say that there is a trend here which is to shut up and pass if you don't like an image, rather than trying to explain why, whereas another trend, well established too, consists in expressing your opinion by throwing low rates on high-rated works with no explanation of any sort. Something's really wrong with both attitudes imo. What's even more ridiculous is that some people seem to make a point insulting other members for expressing their opinions in a detailed manner - which is what I happened to do generally. How much worse can it ever get ? If someone finds a weakness in an image and says so, another person steps in minutes after to basically tell him to shut up. How nice ! And that even happened in this week's POW and had to be deleted by the moderator, and it's all over the site.

Moderator Edit: Marc - this is directed not at you in particular but quite a few of the very long commenters of this debate - Yours was the last post on this subject. And as such I am commenting here...Sorry..

Folks - Please start another forum on this subject. Unfortunately, due to the terms of use of the POW -- I will have to delete all the comments following the beginning of the off-topic thread that refer to the start of a debate of this nature. Now - let's get back to the image ;-)... Please...

Hi Mike,

Thanks for posting this and your other photos.

First my 2 cents worth:

1: - out of focus lights and exposure... good.

2: - composition.. A little to the left would be the only improvement in my mind

After following your work for a while and comparing your B&W to what I get back from the lab I have to say I'm finally motivated to start doing my own darkroom work. I had no idea 3200 could look that good.

Cheers,

I'm all out of words, but would like to thank Mike for this photograph, and to offer him an apology for all the pain and suffering inflicted on his image in what was one of the best POW rides I've ever been on.

Mike,

 

If you're inclined to give us a parting remark, I'd like to know how you pulled this off. Did he know you took it? Did you have a conversation before or after the shot? You've inspired me to get out my 1.4 and buy a roll of 3200. Thanks.

Thanks again to everyone for the comments and the interesting discussion. In answer to Carl's question, I'm sure he was aware I was taking photos, but it was not a posed shot in the sense that I was directing his actions. I doubt that he was posing for my camera because his behavior seemed no different when my camera was pointing at him than when it was not, though there is always the issue when photographing people in public of how the way they present themselves to others differs from how they conduct themselves privately.

 

A final technical note: I know my camera, my meter, and the films I use--the in-camera exposure and subsequent development were on target. The web image loses contrast and detail in the shadows--I've yet to discover the secret for preserving subtleties in dark areas in a jpg file viewed by a web browser. Of course, several people simply disagree with the choices I've made in how the image should look. I don't take such disagreements personally.

 

Tom, I haven't tried my hand at filmmaking--I can barely afford still photography. ; ) I think directing would be a wonderful challenge, but I hope that I'd have the advantage of working with a good cinematographer (as well as quality script and actors) since my sensibilities in that area are undeveloped.

I've looked at this image a few times over the week it's been POW, and I think I understand what disturbs me about the lighting. It's the fact that the highlights in the face and (particularly) the hand appear to have no detail in them, but are not printed white. My long wet-darkroom experience is sending out "fogged paper!" warning signals. (The dodged version by Burgess fixes this and looks to me much more natural.)

 

Am I the only one who looked at this and who had visions of trying to print on the last couple of sheets in a box of paper that had sat on the shelf a bit too long?

truly excellent.

Great shot Mike.....I can smell stale beer, cigarette smoke....and something like grime...there's a old blues guitar twanging quietly in the background, tuned slightly sharp, and the woman just out of shot is arguing with someone on the other end of a payphone.....occasionally the sound of a siren wilas over the low hum of the dowtown traffic.....cinematic image indeed :-) straight out of a Tom Waits song....

 

so glad it's not perfect in the post 'production' sense of the word.....it's as perfect as real life gets :-)

 

....congrats

My favorite at the site. Someday maybe I will be able to shot photo like this. 7-7!

great work..good idea..very emotional