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At this point in the thread, you can't really say anything is "off-topic". A few more random comments, and we can put it out of its misery.

 

As one of the first people in the thread to express reservations about this image and the judgement of the elves in picking it for POW, I'd like to apologize to Aldo for the fact that he was in a pillory for a week. If I had known what was going to happen, I would have refrained from my criticism.

 

I won't say that Aldo didn't fan the flames a little, but no one deserves to have this happen. I hope very much that this does not repeat itself.

When I looked at this picture, I wondered what happened in this man's life to bring him to this point. I wondered how he lost his leg and arms. I said a prayer for him.

When I looked at the other picture of the homeless, no questions boiled up from my emotional well.

Is a good picture one that is technically perfect or emotionally charged? Must it be both to be good? I am always careful when something makes me uncomfortable. I tend to be happier finding fault with it, then dealing with my own uncomfortable emotions.

and that is the thoughts of a certified California Air Head.

The point is, Dan Bayer can stand on the tallest

soap box, scream till his vocal cords pop, type

as many e-mails as his bleeding little fingers

can handle, and take all the pictures he wants to

show what he believes is rotten about this country. Hopefully, he will direct it toward

someone who can do something about it, and I will defend his right to do just that. But, when he

brags about puting his hands on people and their stuff, or threatens to drag me out of my

vehicle because it's an eight instead of a "six banger", I get pissed.

I am new to this site, and I have no photos to offer at this time. I'm here because I truly admire the work of some of the memebers, and Mr.Bayer happens to be one of my favorites. Perhaps this is partially why I've reacted to his words.

 

I think 300 comments would show Aldo's work to

be quite provocative. I think that's important

I think 300 comments would show Aldo's work to be quite provocative. I think that's important

The problem is that it's provocative because of artistic and technical weakness set off in stark relief by PoW status. Left on its own, the picture would hardly generate any reaction.

Wow, this sure have been quite controversial.

I couldn't resist.

 

Aldo, I thought I had a tough time.

 

You took the bait early, but Vuk advised me not to answer until Thursday, but then he decided to speak for me anyhow. Fortunately, in my case, it didn't make much difference. Unfortunately, in your case following his suggestion caused more of a problem.

 

I haven't had a chance to read the last fifty or so comments, but on a cursory glance, there is a lot to catch up with.

 

Besides the bad composition, the remote, detached view, the spots, (latter, very easy to take care of), the 'toning' if that is what it was is awful. I don't know what the point of it was, but it is ugly. Totally unnecessary. If you are shooting B&W, keep it that way. Artsy toning doesn't work with this sort of subject.

 

 

....and everyone else who caught my CO2 rant.

 

Sorry about the brash view of the "Gas Gobblin's" It's been a peeve of mine since I was about 5. I remember living in Florida and thinking as a cloud of manmade flew out of an exhaust pipe, "That's not right." So it isn't.

 

I apologize for the physical and harsh way I put my dealings with it.....it's just how passionate I am about this subject. I will put my life on the line to get people to change thier ways.

 

I am very passionate about photography too and have made some impact with published snowmobile and suv pictures that have really pissed some folks off.

 

I appreciate your kind regards to my work Mike, did not mean to get you as rowled as I was. I will keep to just photo related subjects as there are tons of people who read these threads and don't want to "Blow my cover" or make enemies out of potential friends.

 

I am getting ready to put about a dozen new pics on .NET from Soth East Asia.

 

Enjoy the pics, forget the rant, we are all human and by the way, I love my country!!

 

Congrats Aldo, you have made history.

Keep shooting what YOU want, it's just a forum afterall.

 

Dan

Does anybody else see the irony here? Some poor homeless guy who probably doesnt have a computer has caused such a big commotion. I think he would get the biggest laugh out of it if he knew.

The sad thing is that you don't understand that it is your very attitude that has made Amerika just what it is.

I know this is a statistic that everyone has heard at lease 27 times, but we makeup something like 15% of the world's pop, and consume something like 60% of it's resources. Will Moore

The US? More like 5% and of course much less than 60% of the worlds resources. Something like isnt very convincing in statistics.

It takes something like 2,500 gallons of water to produce ONE POUND of red meat. Not one cow, ONE POUND.

Please. If we assume we get an average 500 lb of beef per head (conservative), that means a consumption of 1,250,000 gallons per head. Over a lifespan of 500 days (typical), that is 2500 gallons per day, or an average of over 3 gallons per minute during its waking 12 hours per day. Thirsty Daisy, huh?!

Cattle consume about HALF of all the fresh water on earth.

Come again? Not even if these million-gallon drinking cows existed would they consume anywhere remotely approaching half the fresh water on earth. And what does that mean anyway? Water isnt consumed.

In any case, the problem with the world isnt that there is too little food; its that it is unevenly distributed. It would be naive to think that if the pampered West stopped eating, our excesses would feed the needy.

Daniel,

 

I admire your photos.

 

Kyle,

 

He probably doesn't have a computer but I don't think he would be laughing. He is merely trying to survive like many others.

 

To the Elves:

 

I would still like to post my pictures from time to time but please don't consider them again for POW "status". I am just trying to get some feedback on my passion and I don't feel comfortable dealing with this type of controversy.

 

That's the best comment of this thread...Congrats on POW.

 

Cheers,

Regas

ok, this is way off topic, and there's probably not a lot of ppl that will know what I' talking about, but anyway:

 

Seeing the carnage here reminds me of Nine Inch Nails.. esp. the latest album, the Fragile, in particular the track "we're in this together".. no, not the title itself, but the feeling of the track.. struggle & facing a not so friendly world.

 

well, just thought I'd add to the wall of sound.. this chaos of information is almost a piece of art in itself. Few can keep any overview anymore, and the discussion loses itself in a maze of directions and purposes.

Dan,I've always wondered why you were so quiet during the trip around Sydney I treated you and Amy to when you were here last year... so... was it my SUV Forester? Or my dogs (remember that Rottweiler at Newport beach)? Couldn't have been the fish and chips, could it?

Gotta know, man....

(How's London?)

I shouldn't add any more comments, but my ego has got the better of me again (remind you of anyone?). I was tempted to write to Aldo in private, but to do so would be to deprive the forum of my fantastic insights (ditto).

 

Aldo, please don't be discouraged by the negative comments about this picture (most of which are directed at the Elves anyway...). You have a good portfolio (much better than anything I have), and its good to get feedback from the (more than) technically competent photographers on this site (which doesn't include me or you-know-who).

 

As I said earlier, my problem with this being POW is it's "political" content (which has triggered a rather unpleasant discussion about homelessness and SUVs and Dubya and goodness knows what else). I concede Kyle's point that this is due to people's inability to have a civil debate rather than the photo itself.

 

My problem with photos like this is that they are somewhat immune to technical criticism. I wouldn't want to swap places with this man ('professional' beggar or not), and that is what this photo does for me. Somehow, complaining about the composition seems trivial.

 

What constitutes a 'good' photo of a homeless person anyway? I agree that Mike Czepiel's photo is better in many ways (better tone, more detail, more texture etc.), but its no more 'real' than the photo here.

 

The 'homeless' defy generalization like any other sociological group. One of most difficult things I encountered in London was people sleeping rough (and begging) whilst I was on my way to the Shelter (where people were getting re-settlement help and three hot meals a day). On the night before I left London (New Year's Eve), I saw a defenceless rough sleeper (a woman) being verbally abused and physically threatened by a group of men. Call me naive, but this was the most disgusting thing that I have ever witnessed with my own eyes.

 

As for Tris...

 

I'm sorry, but I WON'T be looking forward seeing you in next week's POW. Your obsession with meaningless ratings is just pathetic (especially when it concerns meaningless photographs). Daniel Bayer doesn't care if people rate his pictures badly; he KNOWS that he is a decent photographer. I can't imagine him (or anyone else) losing sleep because he drops 2 places in Photonet's top #50.

 

Although its true that one (how pretentious, sorry) doesn't need to be a master of a craft to pass comments on the work of others who are, I do feel that you are skating on the proverbial thin ice.

 

I don't care about ratings, but I do care about comments. Furthermore, I am much more likely to care about comments from photographers whose work I admire (such as Ian MacEachern). I do not admire your work; therefore, I don't care much for your comments (especially technical ones). Your work does not inspire me, Tris; it only reminds me of my own.

 

The sad thing is that actually agree with you about the general poor choice of POWs and people over-rating photographs, but I haven't managed to make most of photo.net hate me (yet). Most of the top-rated photographs (and photographers) are too 'artifical' for my tastes (they flatter their subjects too much), but I'm not going to patronize everyone with an amateur treatise on aesthetics.

 

Anyway, you're a probably just a troll (or one of the top #250 photographers using a pseudonym). If that's the case, then the jokes on me.

 

If not, then please consider your comments on next week's POW very carefully. You are wrecking this forum, not bringing it to its senses.

This is what this photo would inspire by itself, but I'm afraid it's not the saddest thing you see when you click on it and unfold all the senseless hubbub it has caused. I just wish that the poor guy who is the actual protagonist of the picture could receive something in return of it...

Well, for Aldo's sake, I'm glad this week has come to an end. And I have learned a thing or two from this whole fiasco too!

 

1) Never post any of your work that's good enough to qualify for a PoW. You'll save yourself the week long pile of hurdles that Aldo had to leap over.

 

2) Never take what the elves say seriously.I think they mentioned something about being at a bar and consuming beverages before deciding on a PoW...and you know how the bar attending beverage consuming type are.

 

3)Seldom approach a homeless person, unless you're out to get a good photograph of him/her. At least that seems the consensus of this group. I think the man in this picture deserves a gratitous supper and a printed copy of this forum. He'd probably chuckle at what commotion he's caused.

 

4)The best kind of homeless person to photograph is the sort missing an appendage. Should we pity the two-armed homeless any less? What makes a person worthy of taking a picture? How pitiful they appear?

 

5)Never drive my SUV near other photographers. For the sake of being dragged out and beaten by a flaming ecologist, I'll just hike all my equipment up the next mountain I'm on.

 

6)Never take the rating system seriously on this website. Well, I never really did to begin with. I just hope everybody else understands why too.

 

7)Photo.net is an excellent source for essay writing. Just ask Dennis or Tris, they seem quite competent in it. I'd write one myself, but *gasp,* I have things to do for today!

 

 

Well I leave you all with this cheery note, hopefully, to wrap up this battle of the words. Let's pray this Sunday for a bit more maturity on behalf of both sides of the photograph from now on. Crap, I'm almost late for work! Make sure to play nice in the sandbox while I'm gone, Dustin

..."i am just trying to get some feedack on my

passion"....

 

Aldo, whatever you may have missed with your

photo, you certainly nailed with that statement.

Your passion is your life, the reason you take a

breath,eat, drink, sleep. The air you breath, the

energy you expend, the space you occupy has been

questioned, scrutinized, at times ridiculed. When

a person's passion is questioned, the simple act of drawing a breath of air is challenged. This is

serious stuff. Honest, intelligent criticism should make it easier to breath, to give you the recourses to pursue that passion.

 

Aldo, take a deep breath and persue your passion.

 

Daniel Bayer:

"I HAVE pulled people from thier Ford Excursion's and Lincoln Navigator's before, put huge notes exclaiming my dismay on their windows for all the world to see.

 

We all have our causes, that's mine."

 

 

Normally I read, rather than participate in, photo.net, but I just had to reply to this. Environmentalists play on guilt, which is fine. But it seems that, generally, it's the man on the street who earns an average salary and who is trying to get by and raise a family that takes most of that guilt. What about the factories and plants all over the world that pump more crap into our atmosphere in a day than my SUV does in a year? Daniel, why not trying storming a CEO's office and dragging him from the building and seeing how far you get? Perhaps because it's a lot more risky and difficult than attacking an average joe who's just trying to get by, like you.

 

And it's good to hear that a 4Runner is OK rather than, say, a Navigator. Like everyone else on the planet, you seem to bend your rabidly-held opinions when it suits you. So maybe you're not so holy after all. That being said, perhaps you could put together a list of Bayer-approved cars for us to choose from?

 

As for the picture, it's all right.

 

SC

Re: Morwen's chart

 

Now THAT's good reading. I'm (before this post) 4,787 words from top-rated though. Perhaps I can increase the word-saturation of my comments in PhotoShop and move up the list.

 

 

....Simon, drive whatever you feel like until the world makes the changes it will eventually make in fuel use. It will happen as more findings surface and policy dictates.

 

But for now, stop attacking me back for my cause when I said that I will keep it to photo subjects. I have my causes, they are very well founded. I work with alot of knowledgeable people who have no financial or political gains from opposing such practices.

 

It's all good, there are worse things going on in the world than what I do......a couple of buildings fell down and alot of innocent people perished as I recall.

 

I don't smoke, I rarely drink and I take care of my self and my planet, it's what I am here to do and someone has to.

 

Chill OUT, I probably won't be engaging in the "removal" practice anymore, education is a much more effective and respectable practice.

 

Tony, the forrester is a great car, good on gas and can really go more places than some of the 4WD 10 cylinder urban assault vehicles ion use can't.......Simon, I am so sorry my friend but they are simply not need in this world.

 

P.S. When I was 15, I was homeless, I have worked my but off to get what I have since that age, no choice.

 

:-)

 

NEXT SUBJECT PLEASE!!!

 

Daniel

Forgetting the photo and the reason for this forum for a minute...

 

I'm all for that guy who claims he drags soccer moms from their (6-cylinder) SUV's and wails them. That's what democracy is all about, GDm'it, imposing your own personal views on everyone else while demanding complete respect for your own.

 

My personal bug-a-boo is folks who ride on those JP4 guzzling aluminum skin monsters off to faraway ecological paradises, such as Thailand, in search of the perfect photo. Since 9-11, however, I've been having a lot more trouble pulling these folks out of their Boeing and Airbus seats to educate them. Wish I could find some way to get them while they're up there next to the ozone doing the dirty deed.

 

Another bug-a-boo of mine is people who use Nikon F5's and other goods manufactured by that star polluter Nikon. Have you ever done a soil test near any of the Nikon plants in Japan? Way, way above EPA and Kyoto Protocol levels. Geez, any piece of human scum who would contribute to that evil company must be worse than a Starbuck's counterperson.

 

And Thailand...wow, ever cleaned out your nostrils after a day spent walking the Bangkok streets? You could repave the entire US Interstate system! To hell with auto inspections!

 

As a person who happens to "phoot Thai gaeng mak", I think this fellow who heard all the criticisms of the US while taking photos on some southern island filled with those "close to nature" Thais just didn't get it becuase he probably didn't chat with the people in Thai. What they were saying, according to my own experience, is not that Amerika is a big polluter, but rather that it doesn't pollute enough! The Thai's can certainly teach the US a thing or two about pollution. I just love it when I sit near one of those "pristine" Thai beaches, watching the sun set over the garbage and raw sewerage, seeing whether the colors from the effluents in the sky are more saturated than those reflecting off the toxins floating on the water. I mean, no fancy filters or Velvia needed. And when municipal trucks pull up, offload spent motor oil in 55 gallon drums, then pour it into the already colorful mix...well, I just get all warm and fuzzy inside and dream of my own PoW.

 

Oh yes, and I just love chatting it up with all those international types who jump on GB for abrogating the Kyoto Protocols. I mean, why did that lout have to go and point out the obvious, which is that the rest of the world, who neither had made the slightest move toward reaching KP levels, nor did any believe they could even come close in fifty years, was quite happy with the deal. They were quite content to stand behind a meaningless agreement, knowing they could hoodwink their own populations into thinking the only bogeyman in the world is the US. That GB just made it so uncomfortable by putting everything back on the table, making it likely that every country will actually have to do something. And of course half the world (China, India) is angry because their ten year free ride might be rescinded.

 

But I digress. What I really wanted to know was how 6 cylinder SUV's ever got into a discussion of a photo of a panhandler in the first place?

Mr.Vucsanovic, your remark further proved my

point: you are not totally indifferent to Aldo's photo. That, I think, is important.

 

Mr.MacEachern, your 'toning' comment was well

stated, constructive, and not the least bit

demeaning.

Ignorance kills, not freedom.

 

Daniel B's comments reminded me of a question I asked General Norman Schwarzkopf at a Vanderbilt University "TownHall" type meeting a month or so ago. He gave his speach and then opened the floor for questions.

 

I asked him, paraphrasing, "considering the United States role as a leader and world power, what did he think our role was in promoting peace and non-violence."

 

His response was something to the effect of, "Sometimes all they will understand is a swift hit in the face with a 2 by 4." The crowd cheered. . . yada yada.

 

Pollution, Poverty, Famine, War. . . Photography explores them all. If it makes you feel good to be a tool of the American Media Machine, then just sit back and enjoy your ignorance. But don't tell me that I have to sit back with you.

 

If you really believe that pollution is not killing our planet, war is good, and Mcdonalds is your good ole American do right corp. Then that happy pill is working just like GWB said it would.

 

Anybody wanna come over and eat some dead cow with me? How bout some manufactured chicken parts?

 

Aldo's photo, love it or hate it. It is great photography. It might not be the most beautiful display of light and lines, but it has definitely taught me a thing or two about perception and subject.