leaf shutter vs. the other type!

[samantha_passey]

I am looking to get started in Medium format and from reading other

peopls postings and reviews I think I'm after an SLR with

interchagnebale lenses and backs, but I am confused about the

distinction and pros and cons of leaf shutters vs. the other shutter

type (focal plane????)Could someone explain?

 

I am looking for a versatile system which has a variety of lenses to

allow me to expand on it in the future. I am interested in close-up

and still life, but would also like the versatility to be able to go

out and about with it, albeit with a tripod. I was thinking perhaps

of a Mamiya or Bronica but am baffled by the range of models out

there and which ones are SLR! I like the look of the Mamiya RZ67,

particularly the rotating film backs, but would 6x7 be too much of a

jump up from 35mm?

 

Any advise would be welcome!

[jdc]

leaf shutters cause less noise and vibration and can sync at any speed. Some MF cameras that use an in lens shutter have curtains at the film plane somewhat negating the noise issue. All MF SLR's suffer from mirror slap (locking the mirror up prior to shooting fixes this)

Focal or film plane shutters generally sync at one speed (some as slow as 1/30). Having one shutter (or so I'm told) for every lens can be a benefit -- you need only accommodate the peculiarities of one not 2,3,4... shutters.

6x7 is fairly close to 35mm proportion wise. The bigger size of neg should not be an problem, but a benefit. 6x6 would be a different story all together. Framing for a square, with the intent of keeping the square (meaning not cropping when printed) is a fairly large leap for those accustomed to 35mm. The size of the mf camera could be an issue and the RZ is about as big as they get.

I shoot MF, use a system with in lens shutters and I am very satisfied. I don't use an slr though. My first MF was an slr and it was not for me.

[david_goldfarb]

The above post covers most of the issues.

 

Another that I would add is cost. With a leaf shutter system, you are paying for a shutter with each lens, which can add a few hundred dollars to the price. An upside to that is that if you have separate shutters for each lens, and one shutter has a problem, you can still use your system and other lenses. A downside is that over time your shutter speeds may become inconsistent from lens to lens, and you have more shutters to maintain.

 

Bear in mind that focal-plane shutter systems often provide the option of one or more leaf shutter lenses, so you can have a mixed system--less costly unshuttered lenses for most uses and one or two leaf-shuttered lenses for situations where you might want high-speed flash sync. This is what I have.

[joseph_verdesca]

I suggest that, in addition to reading up on medium format here on photo.net, you also check out http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/cameras.html. The site has some nice perspectives on medium format systems and issues.

 

In addition, rent a variety of systems from a pro shop, one system per weekend, until you have a better feel for what works for you.

 

Do lots of research (both hands-on and reading) up front - it's a very expensive step to make.

[paul_kerfoot]

Samantha

 

You are correct in that there are basically two varieties of shutters in MF cameras, focal plane and leaf shutter types.

 

Leaf shutter disadvantages are they must be built into every lens and that adds significantly to cost, on the order of $1000 per lens. Advantages of leaf shutters are flash sync at all shutter speeds which for MF can be up to 1/1000 second. Leaf shutters are also essentially vibrationless.

 

A focal plane shutter is located in front of the film plane within the camera body. This reduces the cost of additional lens purchases significantly but because the focal plane shutter is larger and heavier adds to camera vibration. Focal plane shutter vibration is usually overcome via a heavy tripod or other form of rigid camera stabilization. Flash sync is also limited to low shutter speeds, this speed varies depending on the camera.

 

Some MF cameras, such as the Hasselblad 203FE, support both shutter types.

[paul_kerfoot]

Samantha

 

I forgot to add one thing, a good introduction to medium format cameras is "Medium Format Cameras" which is a users guide to buying and shooting by Peter B. Williams. ISBN number is 1-58428-042-5 and the price is about $20. I think it will answer a lot of your questions. Don't jump into MF without some serious research and thought, its not inexpensive.

[carl smith]

It's not a bad idea to consider some of the medium format systems that can handle both leaf and focal plane shutters. It may not be what you want, but the Hasselblad mentioned can, as can the Pentax 645N, I don't know about their 67 models. I just mention those because I've used them recently, they're relatively inexpensive compared to some others and the optics are great.

[edsel_adams]

You dont mention several important things,for example :your budget!This is key to the discussion.No point mentioning a $1000 set up to you,if your budget is less than this?The cheapest way to enter MF is with a TLR (twin lens reflex)camera.You can get a variety of brands & models from $150-500.For a SLR camera with the specifications you want,expect to pay roughly double this amount.If you dont shoot flash pictures,the advantages of leaf shutters are lost to you.Do you like working with a square format?Or is the rectangle more familiar to you?The 6x7cm cameras are all pretty heavy & bulky.The 6x6cm cameras are all way over priced!This leaves the 645's.These have negatives roughly 3 times the size of a 35mm neg.(I have used Mamiya 645 cameras for years,as a wedding photographer,these are bascially indestructable!They use focal shutters,so the lenses are inexpensive.Many accesories & lenses ,etc are available for these on the used market.Id say more so than any other brand.)Good luck & happy shooting!

[chris_montuori]

Samantha,

 

I use leaf shutters in lens in a Bronica 645. The possible gain in sharpness in the camera's "preset" condition is something to consider. You've actually got to listen closely to hear it release; a good sign the camera is not gonna "shake" the image. If your interest is in landscapes and with longer lenses, this becomes even more important. Furthermore, flash work with all your lenses is effortless. I have had no problems with my lens shutters and I have used them a long time.

[wayne_crider4]

Jumping to an RZ would be a shock from 35mm, especially if your small, small handed or not very strong. Nice format, big camera. Definetly handle one first. A Pentax 6x7 will have more of a 35mm feel to it's use, just bigger and heavier; Good cheaper lenses tho, so you could put together a bigger kit on the cheap. Get a MLU model.

6x6 is nice and you might find your cropping it often, so there's an expense to that. Some like it, some don't. 6x4.5 works well as a setup since their smaller and have good capabilities in lenses and interchangeable backs. For your intended subjects, find your lenses at the price you want to pay and get a body with what you need on it, especially MLU. Figure your print sizes and intended usuage as a determining factor.

[samantha_passey]

OK, I forgot to put in my budget when I psoted my question! I'm in the UK and having looked around it looks like a Mamiya 645E retails at around £700 new, whilst the Bronica ETRSi is around £800 and the Mamiya RZ67 is around £1500 I think, although it depends where you look. I don't know what second hand prices are like though. I could afford up to around £700 with a bit of saving, i guess thats around $1100 or something like that?

 

Thanks for all the replies so far, I'm really pleased at people take time out to answer posts from MF beginners who don't know anything!! I've just ordered that Medium Format book by the way, thanks for the recommendation!

[robert_kennedy]

The Mamyia 645E is a good camera, but in that price range I'd go with the Bronica ETRSi.

 

The Mamyia is pretty basic and as I recall sacrafices a few features for affordability. The back and the prism are fixed. You you can't slap on a polaroid back or switch from the AE prism to a waist level finder. So if you want to get a bit fancier with the system, you have to buy another body with a new back and prism.

 

That said it is a good camera.

 

The Bronica has a lot advantages. I use an old ETR myself. The quality is great. The ETRSi is a full-fledged MF camera. It also has TTL flash if used with a Metz adapter. The Mamyia doesn't. You can slap on a variety of backs. It has a choice of finders. And pretty much anything in the ETR series will work with the ETRSi. Old lenses. Old backs. Etc. This is good because you can get used stuff pretty cheaply out there. A few hundred dollars can get you a new lens, etc. Not sure how this works with the Mamyia (can someone else fill-in that info?). The ETRSi also has the AEiii prism, which is more advanced than the Mamyias 645E prism. But it is also a bit pricey.

 

In the end both systems are good. With the Mamiya you get a ower starting cost for an AE camera, but with spectre of having to get a new body, finder, and backs in the future if you want to move up. With the ETRSi you are going to get a good priced starter package, but you will have to shell out more cash for the metered prism. But you won't have to get rid of the body in the future if you want more advanced features.

[randall_shafer]

As a photographer who uses a variety of 35mm and medium format equipment, I can offer some advice.

 

First of all, shutter type should be of concern if you intend to use flash illumination quite a bit. Typical leaf shutter systems will synchronize with strobes over their entire range of speeds, while focal plane shutters are usually limited to 1/60th of a second or slower. (Medium format-- newer 35mm systems can often sync at 1/125 or faster.) If you will use flash regularly then you should lean towards leaf shutter cameras. If a prime requirement is fill flash outdoors, then you definately need a leaf-shutter system.

 

You list two requirements-- close ups and portability, that have a big impact on your choices. I shoot with both the Mamiya 645 (645 Pro system) and the RZ67 Pro II system. You can certainly use the RZ in the field, even hand-held (with the left-hand grip) but the champ here is the Mamiya 645. The film area is about 3X the size of 35mm, and you will be able to see the difference in slides and prints. I like the horizontal format (backs don't rotate) and the camera is every bit as portable as my Nikon F5. The camera is easiest to hold and shoot if you have one of the winder grips and the SV reflex finder or a metering prism. It does have a focal plane shutter, though, which limits flash sync speed to 1/60th second. Close up accessories are plentiful (including bellows) and you can get a wide variety of models of this camera series from inexpensive (about $500 for a complete kit -645J) to the latest autofocus version. (About $2500 for a clean demo kit.)

 

The RZ is just not very portable, but if you are willing to drag the equipment around and use a tripod, you will find it a superior photographic machine. The rotating back you've already mentioned, and you can get backs for 6X4.5 and 6X6 formats too. Honestly, the first time you see 6X7 transparencies from this camera, you will be shocked at the quality and sharpness!! The RZII AE Prism has the best metering system I've ever used with a medium format camera, and the system includes a short bellows built-in for closer focusing. Also available are two different-length extension tubes, and a truly excellent 140mm macro lens. (The macro lens has adjustment scales for use with the macro tubes printed right on the barrel.) I also use my macro lens for regular shooting.

 

Lenses and accessories for the M645 tend to be quite a bit cheaper than the RZ, but RZ lenses and accessories seem to be an order of magnitude or more cheaper than those for systems like Hasselblad and Rollei. I got out of Hasselblad to switch to the Mamiya, and frankly, the images are just as good, and I don't have to put up with the constant stream of camera lockups which the Hassy is famous. I've looked at the Rollei system, and even tested it, but I couldn't justify paying $30,000 for a system that cost me $10,000 for Mamiya equipment. My test shots with the Rollei system didn't reveal any substantive difference in image quality (compared to RZ equipment)that I could detect.

 

The bottom line for my recommendation: If you don't need to use flash extensively, look at a Mamiya 645 system. Currently the 645 "Pro" is the best balance of performance vs. cost.

[kornelius_j._fleischer]

When moving up from 35 mm to medium format, photographers usually do it for image quality reasons. Leaf shutters have significant impact on image quality. That's why leaf shutters are available in quality oriented medium format, and are not available in in cheap and convenient 35 mm. There is quite some information on leaf shutters available from these sources: www.hasselblad.se, click on "gallery", then "articles". There is an even more revealing article in the 1/2002 issue of "FORUM", a magazine available from Hasselblad. The article is about the 100 years anniversary of PRONTOR, manufacturer of the only all-metal battery independant leaf shutter in the world today, the shutter that is used in the lenses for Hasselblad. The article reveals a lot of technical details and has many pictures. Worth reading before you decide on a medium format camera system.

[richard_milner2]

Like you, I have been thinking to upgrade from 35mm, so I have been researching medium format SLRs.

 

I'd advise you to look at the Bronica ETRSi, the Mamiya 645 Pro TL, and the Bronica SQ-Ai and -B. You can get detailed brochures on these systems from the UK distributors; Johnsons Photopia for Mamiya (01782 753300) and Introphoto for Bronica (01628 674411).

 

The various other SLR systems on the market (Rollei, Hasselblad and Contax) are all very much more expensive, or else they don't have changeable film-backs or finders (Pentax 645 and 67, Mamiya 645 AF).

 

 

Bronica vs Mamiya in 645 Format

The ETRSi is currently available as a kit for £699 from Mifsuds. This includes a body, waist level finder, 75mm f2.8 lens and 120 roll film holder. Jessops and Dale Photographic have the same kit for £750. You will want a hand-held light meter as well. You can pay between £50 and £400 for one, depending how well-featured it is. Later on you can add a speed-grip winder or a motor drive, a metering prism, and there is a good range of lenses. As they are leaf shutter, they flash sync to 1/500s, which is the top speed of the camera. If you want to use a lot of flash, this is the system to go for.

 

The Mamiya Pro TL costs £699 for a body and winder crank. There is a kit (from Mifsuds) costing £1,199 for the body + crank, 120 film-back, WLF and 80mm, f2.8 lens. There are also more expensive kits including a motor drive and AE prism finder. This seems much worse value than the Bronica but Mamiya accessories and lenses are 10-30% cheaper than Bronica, so the cost of building up a system is going to be similar in the long run. The Pro TL has a higher top speed (1/1000s) than the ETRSi, but a flash sync of only 1/60s. There are two leaf shutter lenses (out of 21 in the range), a 55mm and a 150mm. They flash sync to 1/500s. At the moment, Mamiya are running promotions where you can get a free film-back or some money off a non-standard lens.

 

The Mamiya E is a budget version of the Pro TL. It has a fixed, metering finder and fixed film-back. It can't use leaf shutter lenses or have a motor drive added. It costs £799. It would probably be your worst choice, more expensive than the ETRSi and less expandable.

 

The Mamiya looks a better choice if easy handling is important. Its motor drive integrates very well, and gives it handling like a big 35mm SLR. The Bronica drive looks bolted on as an after-thought. Also, if you are going to use an auto-exposure prism, the Mamiya carries the film speed setting dial on the film-back, the Bronica on the prism. The Mamiya should be handier to avoid ISO mistakes when you change film types mid-roll.

 

It sounds like you'll use a tripod a lot, though. In that case, a WLF, hand-held meter and hand-cranked film winding are arguably better than a metering prism and motor drive. The very good price on the ETRSi kit would let you get started straight away.

 

 

Bronica vs Mamiya in 6x6 and 6x7

The Bronica SQ-Ai and -B are 6x6 format cameras. This could be a nice format for close-up and still-life. It avoids having to switch the camera between landscape and portrait positions. The SQ-Ai is electronic, so you can add metering and auto-exposure, but it's more expensive (£1,150 for a kit). The SQ-B is fully mechanical and cheaper (£859 for a kit). Both these cameras are full system cameras with optional winders and stuff you can add later. The lenses are leaf shutter, and flash sync to 1/500s.

 

Mamiya don't do any 6x6 cameras.

 

They do have the Mamiya RZ67 and RB67. These are much larger and heavier. The RZ is electronic and the RB is mechanical. They can both have winders, finders and film-backs added. All the system accessories are relatively expensive. The lenses are leaf shutter and flash sync to 1/400s. Your best reason for looking at these cameras is that they have extremely precise bellows focussing, which is good for close-up work. The 6x7 format has a much larger picture area. (6x6 is actually 56mm x 56mm, 6x7 is 56mm x 69mm which gives you 23% more area of film.)

 

Bronica also do a 6x7 camera, the GS-1. It's lighter and cheaper than the Mamiya cameras, but the film-back does not rotate. Instead there is a rotating prism eyepiece and a special adaptor for your tripod. The GS-1 is not bellows focussing. The lenses are leaf shutter. Bronica claim it is light enough to hand-hold, but I reckon there is a difference between hand-holding at a fashion shoot and taking it on holiday with the family.

 

 

Buying second-hand

There is a fair bit of stuff on the second-hand market for all these systems. You need to be careful with compatibility, as the older versions of these cameras are up to 25 years old, and details change. The quality can be variable too. Ex-professional cameras are often 'well-used'. Even so, major second-hand dealers like Fieldgrass and Gale give as much as 12 months guarantee.

 

If buying new, see if the retailer will do a deal. Some retailers offer 5-10% off their list price if you just hesitate before replying to an offer. Check the comparative prices at other outlets. People like Jacobs Photo often list stuff at their price, but will consider matching a lower price to get the sale. A retailer might be happy to give you some discount, or chuck in some free filters or something, if he thinks you will come back for film and more gear in the future. Paying by credit card or Switch adds about 2.5% to their costs. If you can pay by cheque or cash, it gives you a bit of leverage to ask for a discount. All this also applies to buying second-hand.

 

 

Leaf shutter vs focal-plane shutter

I don't have a strong opinion on leaf shutter versus focal-plane shutter. Most of the vibration comes from mirror slap, which is inherent in all SLRs whatever shutter they have. You can eliminate it by using the mirror lock-up function. I don't think the high-speed flash sync is a decisive advantage by itself, but why not get it if you like everything else in the system? I'd be happy to use a focal-plane shutter camera in 645. The bigger cameras are all leaf shutter anyway.

 

 

Choosing a system

Try and use, or at least handle, each of the possible choices, and see what suits your style. A retailer should let you try them out. Small details can matter. For instance, you can adjust every setting on the Mamiya 645 with your right hand, and support the camera with your left. On the Bronica ETRSi, you need to change shutter speed with your left hand, and crank the film with your right. No problem if it's on a tripod, but a nuisance if you are hand-holding. Mind you, all the MF systems on the market are widely used by professionals; they each have their plusses and minusses, their fans and opponents, but they're all good enough to survive the competition.

 

Get a system you're happy to carry, use, and add to. In the long run, the running costs will exceed the equipment cost, whatever you buy.

 

I'd also advise you not to get rid of your 35mm stuff until you're perfectly happy with medium format. Save it up and when you want to go the whole way, you will be able to part exchange it.

 

 

Some useful web sites:

 

www.mifsuds.co.uk,

www.jessops.com,

www.jacobs-photo.co.uk,

www.fieldgrassandgale.co.uk,

www.johnsons-photopia.co.uk,

www.introphoto.co.uk,

www.dalephotographic.co.uk

 

and check Amateur Photographer for many more ads and web sites for new and second-hand kit.

[samantha_passey]

WOW! Thanks guys for all your replies, you've given me loads to think about and every posting offers even more information and things to consider. I'm very grateful!!

 

More info still welcome though, I'm learning so much!

 

Just one further question - is it difficult to find places to process and print Medium format films in the UK? and is it incredibly expensive or not too much more than 35mm? Just thought I'd ask, trying to weigh up the extra costs I hadn't really thought about yet!!

[richard_milner2]

Roll film processing is more expensive than 35mm, but not incredibly expensive. (Unless you are used to the Boots 3-day service price.)

 

Individual rolls of film are slightly cheaper than 35mm, typically £2.50 to £3 per 120 roll. You can only buy from specialists or mail order - Boots doesn't stock it. Remember you get a lot fewer shots on each roll.

 

People who start with MF, often slow down their pace of shooting. Not to save money, though naturally it helps. The format urges you to shoot more slowly and carefully. The sheer size of the viewfinder picture makes you spend more time looking all around the frame. You probably take better pictures as a result.

 

I shoot a lot of rubbish on 35mm. I blast off 3 or 4 frames because it's quick and easy, when I shouldn't even shoot one.

 

You can't take a roll film to Boots. But you wouldn't shoot MF if you just wanted bog-standard, 6x4 prints. You need to find a professional lab. I work in central London, and there are lots round here. I should think any large town would have at least one.

 

Here are some links that might help:

 

www.cetaimaging.com (Soho. These prices are ex-VAT)

 

www.jessops.com/info/dp/index.cfm?page=blackwhite.htm&style= (Jessops claim they do B&W roll film but actually they do not offer all services at all their stores.)

 

www.stanleysmith.worldonline.co.uk/index.htm (Sunderland)

 

www.photosdir.com/ (Camarthenshire)

 

Check also the sites for the Royal Photographic Society, Amateur Photography and so on - they have a lot of links to suppliers.

 

No doubt there are mail order services for roll film processing, in case you are in the Outer Hebrides or something.

 

E6 (slide film) roll film processing looks pretty cheap, but you need a hand viewer or light box to examine your slides. You also want a slide projector to show your pics off to friends. I assume you can buy MF projectors but I bet they are expensive. You can get prints done from slides, at extra cost.

 

I'd rather spend £20 to get one great image, than £10 for 36 mediocre ones.

[q.g._de_bakker]

Kornelius Fleischer,

 

Thank you for your comments and the article in Hasselblad Forum about the Prontor Werk where all Hasselblad's leaf shutters are made.

 

Could you comment on the U.S. Patent 6,123,466, September 26, 2000, assigned to Victor Hasselblad AB, titled "Electromagnetic displacement means", describing an "Apparatus [...] for the cyclic displacement of a camera shutter mechanism"?

 

So are the days of Prontor shutters in Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses numbered? Is Hasselblad developing an electronically controlled leaf shutter? Are we in for a big surprise perhaps as soon as the next Photokina? What are your thoughts?

[kevin_ing]

Kornelius Fleischer,

 

The ability to synchronize with an electronic strobe for outdoor fill-flash work is indeed a great benefit of camera systems which use leaf shutters. The article on the Hasselblad site demonstrates this very clearly.

 

What are the other benefits of leaf shutter systems? The only others that come to mind are that they are quiet and vibration-free.

 

Vibration-free is a benefit in extreme telephoto and macro work, but it somewhat requires that an SLR also have a mirror lock up or mirror pre-release system (many, but not all of the leaf shutter MF cameras do).

 

Quiet is often negated by SLRs and their mirrors and internal shutters/baffles which tend to be quite loud when getting out of the way. TLRs and rangefinders win here.

 

Are there any other real benefits to having leaf shutters?

[q.g._de_bakker]

Kevin,

 

TLRs do indeed win on the "quiet front" over camera's with big a mirror, slapping out of the way. Even more so if these TLRs have a leaf shutter... So what do you mean, "real benefits"? Not real enough for you? ;-)

 

By the way: yes, mirror slap is a cause of vibrations too. That's why cameras should indeed have mirror pre-release. And that's why good (!) MF cameras all do. ;-)

But it all adds up. Though the bigger vibration may pale the smaller one into insignificance, it's still beneficial to eliminate each and every single source of vibrations, wherever possible.

[kevin_ing]

Q.G.,

 

Er... What I meant to say is that I see three benefits of leaf shutters: flash sync at all speeds, practically vibration-free, quiet.

 

Kornelius pointed us to the Hasselblad website which gives an excellent argument for the benefit of flash sync at all shutter speeds.

 

But, for a lot of other situations, the 'vibration-free' and 'quiet' benefits are negated by mirror slap and internal light baffles getting out of the way. Even if a camera has MLU, we are not always allowed the luxury of time to use it. And unless we're talking TLRs (I don't think the original poster was considering a TLR) or rangefinders, the 'quiet' aspect is lost.

 

Of course, today the two major leaf shuttered camera system makers are Hasselblad and Bronica. Neither camera is especially quiet IMO, nor vibration-free (without activating MLU).

 

So I was wondering if there is some other benefit to leaf shutters that perhaps I am overlooking. Can you think of any?

[ShunCheung]

In lenses with leaf shutter, you need to leave room for the shutter, thus putting some restrictions in the optical design. For small lenses that have a lot of elements but not that much space, such as wide angles, isn't that a disadvantage? For supter telephotos, this is probably a non issue since there is plenty of room.

[david_goldfarb]

The shutter leaves don't take up that much more room than the iris diaphragm, and the mechanics of the shutter are built around the optical path, so it's not really a problem.

[q.g._de_bakker]

Kevin,

 

No, apart from every lens having its own shutter (which some will say is a disadvantage. Ah well... ;-)), i can't think of any more benefits that leaf shutters have over "the other type" than the ones you mention.

 

You're absolutely right that when handholding and not using a rangefinder type camera, a TLR, or prerelease, both "quiet" and "low vibration" benefits have mostly disappeared. But when you're not, and you do...! ;-)

[q.g._de_bakker]

Kevin,

 

By the way: i admire your courage for not forgetting Bronica, yet not mentioning Rollei and Mamiya when listing the major manufacturers using leaf shutter lenses... ;-)