The best Leica M to use nothing but a 50mm on?

[terry_rory]

Whatever it is, it will need to be better than this (2 recent pics from London taken with Contax 139 & Tessar 45mm f2.8)......

 

"<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/2250272">click here</a>"

 

"<a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo.tcl?photo_id=2250732">click here</a>"

[cameron_sawyer]

The 0.72 finder is optimized for 35mm. It is a little too wide for optimal use of the 50mm framelines, even for a specs wearer. Furthermore, from M4-P the 50mm framelines are squeezed a little (after addition of 75mm framelines) and are even more inaccurate then on earlier M's.

 

Therefore, there is really a lot of sense in the advice to use an M3, which has the highest mag finder ever in an M, and the least inaccurate 50mm framelines. Second choice would be M6,M7 or MP with the 0.85 finder.

 

The 0.85 finder has the extra bonus of usable 35mm framelines, which the M3 does not have.

 

As to the choice of cameras with an 0.85 finder: this is a matter of taste and budget. I prefer the M6TTL which is nice and simple without the flashy blinky stuff of the M7 finder and without the showoff retrograde ergos of the MP.

 

Consider the M7, however, if you shoot a lot of color reversal material (slides). The electronic shutter is much more accurate.

[terry_rory]

Gadge, Hi, my opinion of the Sondek was coloured by a someone I knew (I cant say friend) who had the Valhall/Nirvana/Ittok/Troika with every mod one could buy. He bought 2 of every album he liked (mostly Wagner Ring cycle and Dire straights Telegraph road because thats all he ever seemed to play!) the reason was that he liked to araldite the LPs back to back to make them more rigid and to cancel out any slight warps! He had a small lamp permanently clamped to shine on the cartridge to keep it supple and would almost daily adjust the VTA depending on what the latest theory on VTA was in the magazines he had just read.

 

He played this set-up VERY LOUD via his tri-amped Naim/NAP/NAC/SNAIC/SNONK/KRANK Isobariks until ones head was bleeding!

 

He gave up his job, went tens of thousands in debt and eventually left his wife to return to his mother in Glasgow (with his precious hi-fi) as soon as she announced she was pregnant. There was no room in his life for the Linn and a child.

 

Pretty much most Linn owners I have encountered had milder versions of his traits.

 

I have always favoured Rega and just leave it all to get on with its job. I upgrade/renew about once every 7 sevens years and never tweak anything. I sounds great and I have a life.

[cameron_sawyer]

"I want reliability and a machine that is not going off to be tweaked, adjusted, CLAed, 'Krauter-ed' or whatever every 10 minutes.

 

The last thing I need need is a 'precious' camera that misaligns or 'goes out of tune' from the indignity of being used too often and equally I want a 'patient' camera that will not get petulant because I choose not to use it for a long period sometimes and 'goes off'."

 

 

By the way, you are not talking about any Leica here, other than perhaps an M7. The Leica mechanical shutter is one of the most inaccurate and unreliable shutters ever made and will need frequent attention whether you use it a lot, or, even worse, if you leave it on the shelf. People put up with it only because it's very quiet and makes a lovely sound, and because until the introduction of the M7 they simply didn't have any choice.

 

You might consider a VC Bessa R2 if you really want something which will need no maintenance. The Copal Square shutter is completely bulletproof and maintenance free, and much more accurate than Leica mechanical shutters. Relatively noisy, though. You could pop a 50 Summicron on it and be pretty happy. The finder mag at about 0.7 is a bit low, but the finder itself is bright and flare-free, better than any other than the latest Leica finders, and has a wider opening in it than Leica finders, making it easier to use for specs wearers.

[terry_rory]

Gadge I didnt see the last question. I sold my last crappy Rega 3 a while ago (getting just about what I paid for it new after sounding great for 7 years and got a Jupiter CD instead.)

 

Many Linn adherents tend towards being very emphatic (even dogmatic) about this subject. I just played records or CDs. Hi-fi equipment should never have a 'philosophy' attached to it. It is like a radio, switch on, enjoy, switch off, forget.

[gadge]

Sorry Trevor - There was meant to be a smiley after the crappy turntable fun comment but it got lost in my editing somewhere. No offence intended.

 

The Rega 3 was in fact my first turntable love and not at all crappy. Minimilist, no fuss, great sound and quite well priced too. Plus I lived fairly locally to Southend at the time so visits to the factory were easy if required (none ever needed). Nice choice.

 

Interesting that you have now moved entirely to CD.

I still use both (vinyle and CD) that is although I no longer buy vinyl new stuff.

 

Shades of film versus digital all over again perhaps?

[mitch_zeissler]

Trevor...

 

It all depends on the 50mm you're talking about and the amount of money you wish to spend. I've gone through a ton of LTM, M and R gear, briefly switched to digital, then came back to the M world a whole lot wiser.

 

And yes, I'm a spectacles wearer as well.

 

I still have a IIIf, but consider it more of a museum piece than a shooters tool, mainly because the shutter leaks and Sherry has never been able to make it stop, no matter how many times she's had it. I don't sell it because I don't want a war on the home front (it was my father-in-law's and my wife dearly loves it). The same thing occurred with my M3; went to Sherry for servicing over and over, and at the end of the day still had the light leak issue with the shutter. I eventually replaced the M3 with a new M6TTL .85 and loved it.

 

I'm now shooting with the MP. If you want the closest thing to the M3 experience, without the worry of constant repair and better film loading, get an MP and leave the batteries out. If you want to take really good flash shots of the family during the holidays, get an M6TTL or an M7 for the excellent flash support (much better than what I've been able to cobble together on the MP).

 

I know there will be other postings of outrage about the "M3 that has never seen servicing and still works perfectly after a bazillion rolls have been run through it", but my experience has taught me to buy the glass used and get the bodies from an authorized Leica dealer with at least a one year warranty on them (new or demo is fine, no gray market or cheap overseas sources).

 

Before you buy *any* Leica body, be sure you have seen and played with the viewfinder (.58, .72 or .85) you think you want and make sure you're comfortable with it. If your style of shooting is mid to far distance images with the slower glass (f/2.0 and below), then go for the .58 or .72 and don't look back. However, if you *ever* decide to step up to 'Lux or Noct to use in close focused territory, you'll kick yourself blue for not having gotten the .85.

 

My primary, 95-or-more-percent-of-the-time, lens is the Noct (I ignore all the naysayers, forge ahead and have fun anyway), on an MP .85 with a 1.25x magnifier constantly in place. For close focused portraits, you can't do better unless it is with an original M3, or an M6/M7 of similar configuration. I've found the high magnification of this rig to be perfect for critical focusing situations.

 

For those instances of mid-to-far distance shooting where I don't need the high mag viewfinder, I use a SBOOI 50mm brightline viewfinder on top of the body for framing. The SBOOI can be had for roughly $150 or more on eBay, while the equivalent (or better) from Cosina/Voigtlander can be had for $128 from Stephen Gandy's website. The accessory viewfinder gives the brightest view available and no other framing lines are visible. Makes for very fast framing with zone or hyperfocal shooting.

 

Hope that helps you.

 

/Mitch

[Rob F.]

I don't think an M6 is good advice for someone who only wants to shoot the 50mm, because the 50mm frame in the M6 is undersized. Same goes for all Leicas after the early M4P.

 

As to the choice of magnification, note:

 

"I am a spectacles wearer. I want a fair amount of viewfinder area in the 50mm frame but just enough room around the frame lines to 'predict' the right moment to snap. I want a good bright view."

 

In other words, you want to see a little of what's going on outside the frame, as well as inside. And you want to do that while wearing glasses. I would say a .72 finder meets this need best. You can see a little bit around the frame with an M3, but not much. With an M2, you can see it all comfortably, and with an (reasonably) accurate frame line. Sounds to me like you need an M2. I sent mine for a tuneup after 40 years, but it wasn't broken, and the rangefinder was still accurate. The rangefinder adjustment on my M6 will sometimes drift for no good reason. Not a lot, but it happens.

[patricks]

Probably a .85 VF MP.

 

Best value: mint .85 VF M6 TTL, nowadays around $1,050-1,200.

 

If you have problems with the framelines with a .85, then .72 is your natural choice. I would never go for a .58 if 50mm is your focal lenght. Highest possible magnification is critical to maximize your number of "keepers".

 

Th 50/2.8 Elmar would make it the ultimate travel companion, a 50'cron a supurb allround machine, and a 50'lux or Nocti, the ultimate available tool.

 

I am confident you will figure this out soon. Sell first, buy afterwards.

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

Trevor---There's an awful lot of chest-puffing and posturing on how wonderful

the M3 is. There's some about the M2.

 

If you are a user and--I mean a user--of Leicas the M6, M6ttl or M7 are what

you want. If you shoot on the street and want to take photographs they are the

fastest and easiest to use because of the built-in metering. You just need the

camera and the lens. No external metering, just point and shoot. David Alan

Harvey has shot thousands and thousands of pictures with a plain M6. That's

all he uses. IF it's good enough for DAH it should be good enough for any

working Leica "M" photographer. If you're not a hard user and like to fool

around with cameras then an M2/M3/M4 is fine. By-the-way, I still own two

M2s and a well-worn black chrome M4. When I'm shooting it wouldn't even

occur to me to take any of those with me except for backup or a third body. I

get them out occasionally, but not if I'm on the street shooting. They were fine

in their time but the M6/M6ttl/M7 are far superior.

 

Please, ignore all the jibber-jabber about the early M cameras. You'll be

happier with a metered M6/M6ttl/M7.

[ben z]

Trevor I won't try to declare for sure what one you should get but I'll tell you about why I chose why I did. I have an M4 an M4-P and an MP I just got myself for my birthday (I was hooked on it back last Spring when Nils Thorsen brought some to the LHSA Spring Shoot but took me a while to save up, and it will be my last film-shooting Leica). All of these cameras feel about the same with my eyes closed as anybody else's M2 or M3 that I've ever played with. The M4-P was just overhauled by Sherry K before I bought it so maybe that accounts for why it feels as good as the others I don't know. The rangefinder on my M4-P only flares up a little bit more than the others, nothing as bad as an M6 can do in the same light. All of the bodies are 72x. The 50 lines in the MP obviously outline a smaller area than the ones in my M4 and M4-P but even with those if I trust the lines I always end up with junk on the negative that was outside the lines except that if the background is all out of focus it doesn't usually create a problem. If the whole shot is in focus though it is a problem. One way would be to always trust the lines and then crop for the print. But for prints bigger than 4x6 I kind of would like to be able to use the whole negative if possible, so I mostly compose a little (or a lot, in the MP) outside the lines. Now, I wear large glasses with bifocals. On the M3 or the 85x finder I can't see outside the 50 lines and that's a problem. I have not ever used a 58x but I would miss the 135mm lines because I like to use that lens sometimes when I'm on vacation.

[terry_rory]

This is getting to be a really easy choice :-)

 

What I appear to need is a TTL M3 or M2 with 0.58-0.85 'zoom' viewfinder and then sent it all off to Sherry Krauter to 'breath' her magic onto it and install a Copal shutter before I mount an El-Nocti-cron lens on it. AND then I have to buy an 18 year old Linn Sondek and buy back all my old records! (Kidding Gadge, sorry. You like Rega so you are OK)

 

It just goes to show that, despite there only being a few generations of Leica M out there, even with only one lens there are as many preferences as people. I guess it is down to me to go somewhere where there is more than one Leica M in the whole city (like London) and try out a few variants before deciding. (and still wondering if it was the right choice for rest of my days!)

 

Thanks to all for another lively, opinionated and intelligent set of responses. This is why I come here.

[john_brewton]

Trevor, Gadge. First of all the reference to the Linn turntable was interesting. I've had a Linn for fifteen years and only had to replace the needle once. As to which M? I would be hard pressed to choose between my M4 & M6 TTL .85. Each works well and takes such gorgeous pics... But luckily I don't have to choose. I use the M4 for 28 & 50 lens and the M6 for 50, 90 & 135. So the 50 is good with either. I would have to agree with most of those who suggested to start with any model, either used with a recent CLA or a new one and get out there and shoot for many years without a worry.

Good luck.

[terry_rory]

John. Thanks. I once knew the sort of people who would have had you tarred and feathered for referring to a Linn stylus as a 'needle'.

 

Thankfully I never became that sort of person. (Suspending uninsulated solid copper speaker cable from fishing line and picture hooks, sticking mysterious little foil triangles onto speaker cones, sending little packets of spikes to the Deli Lama (or Ivor Teifenbraum) to have them blessed before inserting them under every component and sprinkling grit from Stonehenge in opposing room corners paralell to the local ley line. Not all of these are made up either! (I even knew a chap who had velcro attached pads to fit over the television speakers before cranking up his stereo. He eventually removed the television altogether from the room and would endlessly change the position of his Linn 'directors' chair to find the 'sweet spot'. NUTS!)

[terry_rory]

Some of these people were deaf to good hi-fi which was the ultimate irony. I once visited the Cornflake shop just after it opened in London back in the 80s. (Behind Tottenham Court Rd in a little tiny house with a basement.) We had to make an appointment in advance and when we arrived my 'friend' listened rapturously to some exotica costing many thousands. One speaker had been left unplugged throughout the entire 30 minutes. (of Prince, yech) I approached the very aloof Male Model look alike assistant and told him about the mono performance we were getting and was told "oh we often do that for a laugh, people still buy it". hmmmm

[feli]

>Cameron Sawyer , apr 10, 2004; 06:24 a.m.

>By the way, you are not talking about any Leica here, other than perhaps an M7. The

>Leica mechanical shutter is one of the most inaccurate and unreliable shutters ever

>made and will need frequent attention whether you use it a lot, or, even worse, if

>you leave it on the shelf. People put up with it only because it's very quiet and

>makes a lovely sound, and because until the introduction of the M7 they simply

>didn't have any choice.

 

Absolute nonsense. The main reason why older Leicas (and many other older

mechanical camera) get sticky is because most of the older lubricants weren't of the

synthetic type and gum up with age. It has nothing to do with the mechanical design

of the camera. The M shutter is among the most reliable and accurate mechanical

shutters ever designed and it's only real competition is the one in a Nikon F or F2.

 

I am consistently amazed that people are surprised that a 40 year old piece of

mechanical equipment may need a CLA.

 

Feli

[h._p.]

Trevor, why not give yourself a day out in Bath and pop into Ace Cameras? They generally have half a dozen assorted bodies in stock and they really are sensible chaps. What's more, they give a good guarantee on used equipment and stand behind it. Ring beforehand to make sure they've got the ones you're interested in.<div></div>

[terry_rory]

I may just do that Harvey. I see 'Evil Leica M3' is enjoying a nice Cappucino Massimo :-) Where are Evil's friends F and Rolleiflex?

[melvin_bressler]

Hi Trevor: I think Rolfe nailed it. But, an M4 would be just as good. You would be trading the longer viewing base for ease of loading, if that's a serious concern. If you are using one lens, and especially with BW film, you'll know the exposure, and won't miss the meter.

However, let me add this: I started using my clip on VF w/my 50 mm, and boy is that ever easy. Easy to view, very bright frame, room around the frame if you wear glasses. Try it.

[watts]

Trevor, if you are tempted by a 0.58 M6TTL I have a near mint

black example (with UK passport) that I don't use and am

looking to offload. Email me if you are interested.

[johnmarkpainter]

Actually,

 

There is an M3 SS with a "Quickload" Mod for sale on KEH right now. That SHOULD mean

that the FIlm loading was updated to be the same as an M4.

 

That's what I would buy.

 

jmp

[george_b1]

Trevor - Fol Linn, read M7. I wouldn't trade my Linns, Brystons and Thiels for anything - - ditto my M7. I really appreciate the shutter.

[terry_rory]

Aha another Linn fiend!

 

I have a theory.

 

Gadge A... loves his Linn has name beginning with G and ending with e and has single letter A as surname.

 

George B.. loves his Linn has name beginning with G and ending with e and has single letter B as surname.

 

I guess that the next Linn lover is going to be called Grunge C or preferably, Georgina C. (Not enough women around here as it is and a Linn listening, Leica snapping woman is going to be a very unusual woman.)

[gadge]

Weird theory Trevor but interesting for all that :-)

 

Meant to mention by the way that I did review your posted pictures. They were excellent and you got added to my list of favourite photog's. If you can substantially better those with a Leica then money well spent but frankly I just can't really see that much clear blue sky between Zeiss and Leica in either direction based on your scans.

 

It will certainly be interesting to hear what you think when you get the first Leica results in. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing what body you choose in the next installment.

[Uhooru]

Ahh this type of thread will be about splitting hairs. Personally? I like the M3 and the M7 .72 with one of those over priced viewfinder thingies. It actually makes my M7 a great 50 shooter, as good as the M3. I love the M3 for its build and its great simple finder. I just have to find a good meter for it. I'm thinking of the the M4, but someone at Sammy's camera says he's using one of I believe Gossen's meter that fits in the shoe, has a little slide that turns it into an incident meter, is accurate, and will cost less than an M34.

For a retro look camera that works great, the M3 and the just discussed Elmar 2.8 50 (especially the old ones) is a great combo, though I often use a next to last Sumicron, and wouldn't mind find a DR version. BTW, how do you DR users like that one?