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zora_suleman

By zora_suleman
in Leica and Rangefinders

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h._p.

h._p.

Posted
Posted

"the urge to tear them down is a telltale sign of an artist grappling with their own failure."

 

Sounds a little like sophistry to me. The real problem lies with them being put on a pedestal to begin with. We're all the same, no better and no worse than one another. Bresson is just another chap, a little better at self promotion than most and occassionally capable of turning out an interesting picture, just like a million other people. It's not about tearing anyone down, just seeing them as the ordinary people they are.

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beau 1664876222

beau 1664876222

Posted
Posted

"Bresson is just another chap, a little better at self promotion than most and occassionally capable of turning out an interesting picture, just like a million other people."

 

Fine, Harvey. Just like Michael Jordan is just another chap for whom the ball fell through the net a bit more often than it usually did for others...

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sprouty

sprouty

Posted
Posted

<I>"Bresson is just another chap, a little better at self promotion than most and occasionally capable of turning out an interesting picture, just like a million other people."</I>

<P>

Harvey, if it's only a matter of self-promotion skills, then politicians would rule the photography world. I have to assume you're being a bit facetious because otherwise you're dismissing the entire concept of talent.

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olivier_reichenbach

olivier_reichenbach

Posted
Posted

«Bresson is ... occassionally capable of turning out an interesting picture, just like a million

other people...»

 

Harvey P., you don't really believe that, do you? Come on, don't you see the conceit that's

coming across such a judgment from another photographer? After all, wether you like his

work or not, you're talking about a man who is said by many to be the greatest

photographer ever. You have the right to disagree, that's for sure, but to dismiss him in

such a

superior tone sounds really pretentious, and is rather difficult to take seriously..

 

As for self-promoting, HCB has, for a few years now, repeatedly said that

photography was just bull... and that drawing, now that was an art form. Coming from one

of the best photographer ever this can hardly be considered self-promoting.

 

Your statement about him, in fact, may well be the ultimate self-promotion.

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h._p.

h._p.

Posted
Posted

"otherwise you're dismissing the entire concept of talent"

 

Yes I am and no, I'm not being facetious. 'Talent' is a word used to play status games with and I don't like such games. I quite simply agree with the American Declaration of Independence...

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal......"

 

And if you have a problem with that, take it up with the US Congress.

 

"to dismiss him in such a superior tone sounds really pretentious"

 

There's nothing pretentious about saying the man is the same as everyone else. If you chose to think Bresson is a better photographer than anyone else, or that the sun shines out of his backside, I can't and won't stop you but I don't need to agree with you.

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terry_rory

terry_rory

Posted
Posted

Stephen, Hi, thanks for your help in making my links clickable. I still cant seem to get the syntax even when someone pastes it in here.

 

I have'nt had time to digest every single word, phrase, argument and nuance on this thread but it does seem that the HCB bully boys are out in force every time a thread like this is started.

 

OK you can see from the links I put up above (thanks for the help again Stephen) that I love the work of such People as Bill Brandt and Fay Godwin. Now it would'nt be right or seemly to start making judgemental comparisons by saying Brandt is better than X or Godwin is better than Y its just that I like them better than X or Y.

 

However, HCB always has a vociferous following who are never happy to say... "I think his stuff is great". Oh no, they have to stomp all over everyone elses choices by saying... "HCB is the best and your preferences are c**p, if you do not think likewise then you have no taste/talent/opinion/right to speak."

 

I think it would be good if we all re-read the original question from Zora and responded in the spirit intended and give examples of photographers work that has inspired us rather than sniping at other peoples choices.

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nesrani

nesrani

Posted
Posted

That's a bit uncalled for, don't you think, Harvey? The <grin> doesn't make it any cuter, sorry.

 

The "all men are born equal" thing refers to their political rights and potentials, not to their innate capabilities. It is a programmatic proposition, a statement of political ideals, nothing more. As comforting as it may be to the mediocre and untalented to believe that they are the equals of Mozart, Schrodinger or Picasso, the fact is they are quite simply not (I include the minor talents on this forum in this, of course - they do not measure up in any way to first class photographers like HCB or MEM or DAH). Your repeatedly stated belief that there is no hierarchy of ability smacks of denial - why?

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h._p.

h._p.

Posted
Posted

OK - we'll take the grin off. If you wish to think that other people are in some way better than you, that's fine by me. The only trouble is, it tends to go both ways and I'm sure you'll soon be saying that you're better than me. Well, I've got a newsflash for you: you're not. Nor am I better than you. If you really have a problem with egalitarianism then go find a bunch of like minded people and build yourself a hierarchy. The top dog can be a dictator.

 

And who are you to declare that someone else is mediocre and untalented? You can say that you don't like what they produce but that means that you don't like what they produce. You can say you like what Bresson produces, or Motzart, but that simply means you like what they produce. I just don't buy the genius idea. I never have. Some people consistently produce stuff that other people approve of or agree with, fine, but for every person who likes Motzart there a thousand who turn off his stuff if it comes on their radio. Are they mediocre?

 

The only thing I'm denying is that anyone is better than anyone else. It's not a new idea, you know, it's the cornerstone of every major religion and philosophy in the world: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bhudism. They all start from the proposition that everyone is exactly equal. They all go on to say that if you are more fortunate than others, you should help them. And all of them give very clear warnings about setting people up on pedestals and worshipping them.

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nesrani

nesrani

Posted
Posted
The point though, is not whether some people are better than others _tout court_, but whether they are better than others at particular skills - whether photography or the 100 metres. Would you say you are just as good as a top athlete at his discipline? That seems unlikely. The same applies to the arts.
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olivier_reichenbach

olivier_reichenbach

Posted
Posted

Harvey, I respectfully think you're confusing different ideas here. It's not about being BORN

«better» than anybody else. No one is. Everybody is born EQUAL, we agree on that. BUT

THEN,

some people DO get better than most others in certain fields. Some genes may be at play,

here, but mostly, I guess it's a matter of family, social and cultural environment. Luck and

wealth (or sometimes lack thereof) may play a role as well.

 

I tend to think that, yes, Mozart was a tiny little bit better at playing the piano and the

violin at age seven than most of the kids his age in History. And that he went on to

become a tiny little bit better at composing music than most human beings in History. At

least, better than me, for instance. So, AT MUSIC, I'm not his equal, and never will be. I

may be better than him at some other things. Making a living from my abilities, for

example. But, God, I shudder at the idea that Mozart could have been my equal in music.

Or your equal, for that matter. What a loss for mankind this would have been!

 

I think Mother Teresa was a little bit better at charity than most of her contemporaries.

 

And I wish you that the neurosurgeon that may one day operate on you not be my equal in

his field ;) Not that I wish you any such harm, mind you.

 

Your idea of «egalitarianism» is actually frightening because it negates any ambition to

elevate oneself in any endeavor and to try and elevate others. It tends to blend all human

beings in one big mediocre grey entity.

 

Heck - since you're citing religions - even Jesus was a little bit better than many at being

THE Messiah later Christians had been expecting, and at helping create a new religion

from Judaism. But then again, He was the son of God. That may have helped ;) But, you're

right, it doesn't mean everybody likes Him or agrees with Him. I know I don't. But God

knows I'm not His equal (pun intended.)

 

Which brings us back to HCB.

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nesrani

nesrani

Posted
Posted

"I�m not quite sure how athletes and photographers can be compared."

 

They're not on the same page of course, and there is no real ranking for artists, but the basic idea that some individuals are excellent performers and other just don't do anywhere near as well, is applicable to both, although in different ways.

 

Harvey - what are "little round things"?

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edmo

edmo

Posted
Posted

Rob, I stand corrected. It seems that Dali came up with a numerical grading system for painters, maybe a similar system could be applied to photographers.

<p>

Anyway, if anyone�s a Mondrian fan, look away. Anyone else might want to guess at who�s the greatest painter according to Dali before looking.

<p>

<a href="http://www.nelepets.com/art/20c/70-79/1979dali%20grades%20the%20painters.htm">DALI GRADES THE PAINTERS

</a>

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