Handholdable 6x6 (SLR) Tilt/Shift Solution

[pompu]

Hi,<br>

I've been looking for a handholdable medium format outfit with

movements, but haven't found a comfortable solution yet.

I need mostly tilt/swing capability for selective focusing and I

really love the TS-E lens with my canon (35mm). I just wish I could

get the same effect in a 6x6 medium format. (I currently own a

Hasselblad 503CW with 3 lenses: my main set of gears)

<br><br>

So far, I came up with the following options, but they all have some

problems.

<br><br>

1. Zoerk Tilt/Shift<br>

Pros: I can probably use 503CW with it (Can anyone confirm?)<br>

Cons: I can't use my Hasselblad lenses. Not sure of the

quality/price either.

<br><br>

2. Kiev + Hartblei lens<br>

Pros: 6x6 Tilt/Shift<br>

Cons: Can it really substitute Hasselblad (in terms of quality?). I

don't want to carry around two bodies either.

<br><br>

3. Light MF Viewcamera<br>

Pros: Multiple format possibility.<br>

Cons: When handholding, I have to use the viewfinder, and I can't

really check the 'selective focusing' effects. I need an SLR!

<br><br>

4. Rollei SL66<br>

Pros: 6x6 with tilt.<br>

Cons: Maintenence issues. Limited movements(?)

<br><br>

Any other ideas? If I have to chose from above, I would probably

like option 1 the best, given that it is not terribly expensive.

Otherwise, I would consider switching my Hasselblad to a comparable

6x6 outfit.

<br><br>

Any suggestions, ideas or comments are welcome.

<br><br>

Thanks,

<br><br>

Ted

[lawrence_title]

Here is a relatively cheap solution, but only applies to 200 series Hasselblad cameras as

you need a focal plane shutter. Basically, I constructed my own version of Mark Tucker's

plungercam ( www.marktucker.com/plungercam ). This is simply the lens from a

Rodenstock (Calumet branded) 6x6 3x

aspherical loup that has been removed and then duct taped to a drilled out Hasselblad

body cap. THe body cap is screwed on to the body. Cheaper than the Zoerck and more

abstract (lower tech). To focus, you either pull the lens out or into towards the film plane

and can shift or tilt the lens relative to the film plane to create your desired selective focus

effect. Here are some examples:

<br><br>

<img

src="/photodb/image-display?photo_id=1873181&size=md"

height=524 width=524 hspace=10>

<br>

<img

src="/photodb/image-display?photo_id=1845555&size=lg"

height=555 width=555 hspace=10><br>

 

<br><br>

 

You can email me if you want more details and more architectural examples can be found

on my junky webpage: http://homepage.mac.com/lawrencephotographs/index.htm

 

Remember, you need a 200 series camera, but it is handheld with incamera metering as

well.

[roberto_manderioli]

Flexbody, if you can live with little shift ..

[tito sobrinho]

Horseman 6x9, 6x7, and 6x6 Technical camera.

[dale_dickerson2]

1) about "2. Kiev + Hartblei lens"

You want the Arsat 55mm. It was designed to shift and is sharp over the whole range of coverage. The Harblei lenses do not have good coverage. Set 0 degree the Harblei is sharp but resolution and contrast fast fall off as you change the degrees.

 

2) You left of the Rolleiflex 600x series with the shift lens.

 

3) Hassy flexbody

[lucas_griego]

Here's the link to the Zoerk site.

Interesting stuff that I have thought about getting myself for the selective focus for

the RZ67 Pro II... but of course have yet to actually make the leap.

 

The build on the stuff looks more than adequate. Typcial for engineered products

coming out of Germany.

 

Though not as precise the plunger cam is interesting and hell of alot cheaper!

[ulrik_neupert]

Everything will be easier if you buy a second Hasselblad body with focal plane shutter from the 200- or 2000 series. You can buy a Hartblei 65 mm shift lens from http://www.kievcamera.com/ with Hasselblad mount. Zörk offers a 50 mm Mamiya shift lens with Hasselblad mount.

 

Ulrik

[mskovacs]

Its the hand-holdable that's the real issue. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that hand holding for this type of photography is just plain dumb. Composing is hard enough without introducing movements. Get a view camera with a rollfilm back and use a tripod!

[danny_liao]

I agree with Mike. Why go half ass? By selectively focusing on a subject, you are pin

pointing where you want to be focused. Any slight movement would cause the focus

to go off your intended focus area. Get a nice field camera and a tripod, and do it the

right way. By using a 6x6 camera, you are very limited on your range of tilt and

swing. Have you ever been on location and wished you would have brought one extra

roll of film or a second lens or a reflector and you get so pist-off at yourself for not

bring it? Well, by going with a 6x6 with tilt and shift lens, that's what is going to feel

like. With a field camera you ARE bring the extra film, lens, reflector. You are not

limiting your self. You won't be caught in a situation where you wish you could do a

little more tilt or swing. Plus, you could go from 6x6 to 6x7 to 6x8 to 6x9 to 6x12 to

4x5. You could pick up a used in like new condition Horseman FA for about a 1,000

on ebay. The most I've seen it go was about 1300. And a good lens for about 350.

Used roll film backs are about 250. But if you stick with 4x5, each holder would run

you about 8-10 used. If that's within your budget, than I would go that route. Also,

a field camera folds down to about the size of a box of popsicles. And it's light!

[lawrence_title]

Mike and Danny ...

 

Come on now ... "plain dumb" ... "half ass"

 

Not all photography is about razor sharpness, lens MTF graphs, tripods etc. ... Depending

upon what effect Ted is truely looking for, let's not be so absolute about the

appropriateness of handholding. If I had to set up a tripod and view camera etc. I may

have missed the stairs picture (above) taken in the (Sir Norman Foster) Great Court of the

British Museum.

 

Although I have toyed with the idea of the Hasselblad Flexbody for selective focus, the

handholding ease of using my loupe lens Hasselblad 202FA is something I could never

accomplish with the Flexbody.

[danny_liao]

Of course not all photography is razor sharp. I have plenty of those in my street

photos. But if someone states that they want a camera to do selective focus, than

one must assume that there is going to be a point of focus/sharpness in the image.

Well, that's what I assumed.

[danny_liao]

Of course not all photography is razor sharp. I have plenty of those in my street

photos. But if someone states that they want a camera to do selective focus, than

one must assume that there is going to be a point of focus/sharpness in the image.

Well, that's what I assumed.

[oskar_ojala]

It's difficult to compose precisely when both shifting/tilting and hand-holding, so I usually reserve this for 35 mm, where DOF is good and the camera is mobile as it already is. for you, I suggest skipping the SL66 and viewcameras; these are essentially tripod mounted gear (have you shot with a view camera? it's not hand holdable, a speed graphic is, but that's another story.) The Hartblei might be interesting and is not that expensive (ok, so in the world of MF this is relative.) All in all, it's a compromise. Personally, I'll either take my 35 mm or lug my 4x5" view camera with the gear required.

[pompu]

Wow, thanks for the overwhelming responses.<br>

Let me go over some of your suggestions.<br>

<br><br>

- Plungercam <br>

I actually looked into this before. Although I really like it, and I will probably try it when I get a 200. With true movements, I think I have better control especially in the out of focus area. I guess they are both interesting, just a little bit different effects.

<br><br>

- Flexbody<br>

I bought and used it, and sold it pretty quickly because I can't handhold it.

<br><br>

- Rollei 600x with shift lens<br>

Sounds interesting. However, can it tilt and swing also? That is what I really need.

<br><br>

- Zoerk for Hassy mount<br>

I didn't know that they make hassy mounts. I sure will check with them today.

<br><br>

- Horseman<br>

I've heard that you can handhold Horseman VH. The only (and big) problem is that you have to compose/focus using a viewfinder when handholding so I can't really check the effects.

<br><br>

By the way, here are some sample shots that I've taken with a canon ts-e lens.

<br><br>

<img src="http://www.pompu.com/blogs/pompu_gallery/archives/images/winter bw scene 33.JPG">

<br>

<img src="http://www.pompu.com/blogs/pompu_gallery/archives/images/winter bw scene 31.JPG">

[mskovacs]

Have you ever seen the size of a Rollei 600x? You'd be better off handholding a 'blad!

 

Lawrence I agree but these abstract shots kind of defeat the advantages of using MF over smaller formats. Believe me I don't sit around stroking my lenses and salivating over test results...

[pompu]

Mike,<br><br>

I don't agree with you at all. Probably it's because you haven't seen the actual photo. Although a big part of it is blurred, the important part is still sharp. Also, it is the grain that irritates me most.<br><br>Believe me, even this kind of abstract photo can and does benefit from the larger negative size when enlarged.

[pompu]

I just wanted to add that having a sharp part in the image is probably the biggest difference from this kind of shot compared to a plungercam shot.<br><br>I've shot 100+ shots with a canon lens handheld, and I was ABLE to compose them as I wanted to. So, the arguement that you can't handhold for this kind of shot does not make sense either (even if you consider that MF requires slower shutter speed).

[mskovacs]

OK lets say that a tripod is as much a compositional tool as a tool to achieve technical perfection. I would argue that you have even greater control of the focus/OoF areas and the degree of sharpness. The first shot of Lawrence was a grab shot so yes a shot is indeed better than no shot. The remaining three could all benefit from use of a stable compositional platform.

 

Medium format cameras are generally heavier, have slower lenses, less depth of field, and less automation than 35mm cameras. So while its great that you can get handheld shots with 35mm Canon/TS, I think it negates all the advantages of medium format to do so with the bigger negative.

 

E.g. if you had a stable platform Ted, would you have included that distracting white line in the upper left of your second image? (a contrail?) Using a stabilizing platform frees you from the burden of uncomfort and fear of movement and lets you focus on the image.

[keith_merrill]

From what I am seeing from the photos posted and from the descriptions of why people would want to handhold a tilt/shift camera, it seems to me that this effect can be duplicated using a clear filter with some vaseline smeared around the edges. That will get you your selective focus, and you don't have to buy a new camera. Please let me know if I am wrong, but if you use the filter idea, you also can make the image not have the very pronounced lines from out of focus areas to in focus areas.

[pompu]

<em>if you had a stable platform Ted, would you have included that distracting white line in the upper left of your second image? (a contrail?) Using a stabilizing platform frees you from the burden of uncomfort and fear of movement and lets you focus on the image.

</em><br><br>Mike, you're kidding, right? <br>That white line on the left is the KEY to the second image! In fact, that is exactly why I want to handhold. If I was using a tripod, I wouldn't have been able to make that shot because I was on a chair lift.<br><br>

 

<em>I would argue that you have even greater control of the focus/OoF areas and the degree of sharpness.</em><br><br>

The keyword here is "even greater". What you said is true, but that doesn't mean that you can't achieve enough of sharpness and control without a tripod.<br><br>

 

<em>So while its great that you can get handheld shots with 35mm Canon/TS, I think it negates all the advantages of medium format to do so with the bigger negative.</em><br><br>

Then why so many people handhold their MF gears? Mamiya 7, all the range finders, even Hasselblads. Also, I was asking for a "Handholdable" solution. Translation - I want to be able to handhold it when I want to. It doesn't mean I am always going to handhold it.

<br><br>

This discussion/arguement is a lot of fun, but wouldn't it be better to do this via email because it has nothing to do with the original subject?

[mskovacs]

Seriously no I wasn't kidding, that line doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever in the context to the rest of the image. We'll just have to agree to disagree...good luck finding your camera and please do post the results when you do. :)