Horseman SW 612 (Pro)

[peder_mansson]

I have seriously looked into buying one of these a couple of times

during the last 12 months. What strikes me is that very few of the

Photo.net readers seem to own one, know of somebody using it or like

me, considering buying one. Why is this? Too expensive? I doubt it.

Poor results? I don´t know. I was inspired by the camera after

reading an article in the March 2002 issue of (the British magazine)

Photography Monthly, where photographer Jon Hicks travelled in the US

with this camera.

Still no further information???

[paul_chan4]

Peder, I have the earlier SW612 with the 45mm Apo Grandagon lens. Used it infrequently but rest assured it is indeed an excellent performer. Simple scale focussing and mechanical features get you to do your shoot more deliberately in relation to exposure and composition. The 45mm seems a little too wide for the 6x12 back. I would have preferred either the 55mm or 65mm lens instead for a smaller coverage equivalent to a 28mm lens on 35mm format. Works just about the same as the Blad 903SWC but the Horseman gives the benefits of interchangeable lenses and 3 film backs for various format sizes. You would no doubt enjoy its simplicity and hand-holdable versatility. It's not inexpensive but your selected shots enlarged to 20"x30" or bigger give you that sense of justification to purchase in the very first place. It is one fine camera for landscape and street shooting. The Pro model has an integrated rise feature for limited architectural application.

[ian_maclennan]

Peder

I also looked very seriously at buying one of these cameras about 18 months ago. Although I ended up buying something else it might help if recount some of the factors which swayed my decision. My prime use was for panoramic landscapes, to be used alongside my Pentax 67 workhorse. Because it was a big investment I spent a day at Robert White and Co in Dorset who were exceptionally helpful in offering advice and allowing me to try out the kit in action.

My conclusions were :

 

The movements of the SW612 Pro did not justify the extra cost (~£650) or weight (~350g) for me since I would rarely use rise/fall or shift in the field. The really useful movement would be tilt and that is absent, so the SW612 Pro offered no real advantage to me over the SW612.

You really need to compose on the ground glass screen to use the movements effectively. However the screen is pretty dim and although useable, certainly does not make for fast working. It does not compare well to a typical 5x4 screen. We tried overlaying a piece of Fresnel lens on the ground glass which helped somewhat but it is still a very dim setup. I concluded that I could certainly use the screen to confirm the overall composition but I would almost always focus using the hyperfocal distance on the helical mount.

A centre filter is recommended on all lenses wider than 75mm. This is normal because of the aspect ratio of the format but it does mean losing 1.5-2 stops in speed for 65mm and below for panoramic cameras. While this was not an issue for me because 75mm would have been my preferred choice, it does mean that a tripod is probably going to be needed for most landscape shots.

The lenses are all Rodenstock so the quality should be excellent. However the cost of the helical mounts means that the lenses are significantly more expensive than the same lenses for large format . The build quality and finish looked excellent and I would have no concerns about lugging the camera about in the field (suitably packed of course).

 

In the end I decided to buy an Ebony RSW45 with a Horseman 612 roll film back which, with a Schneider 75mm Super Angulon XL cost me about 15% less than an SW612. My standard print from a Velvia 6x12 original is 16�x32�. The quality from my Ebony setup is just superb but I am sure that the 612 Pro would be just as good.

 

The deciding factors in favour of the Ebony were :

 

The Ebony is the fastest field camera I have seen because the lens stays mounted when packed away in the camera bag. I wish I had seen this camera years ago!

I have sufficient tilts/rise/fall for any landscape applications.

I can use 5x4 if the need arises.

I can use a bigger range of lenses on the Ebony.

The weight of the Ebony including lens is only about 200g more than the SW612 Pro. From memory the basic camera is about 1.5kg thanks to the use of titanium for all the metal parts.

 

The downside of the Ebony is that is bulkier than an SW612 - but not that much. When the standards are retracted the front to back dimension is only about 90mm, including the 72mm lens. The Ebony is clearly not a point and shoot camera since it has to be tripod mounted. However I don't believe that the SW612 would be that much faster for serious landscape photography because of the limitations on composition and focus set by the ground glass. However if precise composition was not an issue and the viewfinder masks alone were used to do the framing then it would be faster.

I don't know which part of the world you are in Peder but I would recommend that you contact Robert White in Dorset, UK, if you have specific questions (+44 1202 723046; www.robertwhite.co.uk). I should say that my only connection with Robert White is as a long-standing customer who has received superb service and excellent advice over many years!

Hope this helps.

[josef_hoflehner]

Peder, I fully agree with Paul. I use the same configuration for quite some time

now. You can see some images captured with SW 612/45mm published in

the book "Frozen History" (http://www.frozenhistory.com)

[dermot_conlan4]

Well you've reveived informed answer's all I will add as someone

who used the sw612 in the field for landscapes, the ground

glass is all but useless don't forget in the field we are working in

the dim light of early morning or late evening. I disagree about

the rise factor of the sw612Pro many times I was set up to shoot

a scene and needed just a little shift to compose correctly...you

cannot tilt the camera up or down slightly as you can with the

P67 and this will frustrate the hell out of you. And yes the lenses

are overpriced the helical mounts add up $1500 to the large

format price, I would do as Ian did and get myself a small 45 set

up with 612 back .

[peder_mansson]

Thanks for some very valuable replies. I have indeed been in contact with Robert White. I am also in the process of choosing an Ebony 4x5 camera, and have looked at the more sensible solution of a RSW with Sinar Zoom2 RFH. There is one SW 612 for sale with 2 6x12 RFHs and the 55mm lens as well as Centre filter and GG focusing screen for about USD 3,800. I find the 55mm too wide and would have gone for the 135mm (somehow complementing my darling Fuji GSW 690). I also realize that the best images will require the use of a tripod which means that I might as well use the RSW 45, 45S or SW45. It's a pity that Fuji only did 3 models of the Texas Leica, with 28, 39 and 44 mm lenses (35mm equivalents).

[t._lehman]

Peter.

 

I have written a review of my experience with the Horseman 612 which is on the luminous-landscape website with some sample pictures etc. However, like many of the respondents in the end I bought a 4x5 because of the more reasonably priced lenses and a greater selection plus the ability to have a greater range of shifts and do tilts. However, many of my favorite pictures were taken with the 6x12 and the 55 lens.

[peder_mansson]

I'm glad you replied as I tried to get hold of you via your review on Michael Reichmann´s site.(I bought his Pentax 645 outfit last year).

How many of these favourite shots you mention were taken handheld? Are you talking Velvia at 1/30 handheld, Provia 400 at 1/60 with better DOF or what is possible, if you remember. I imagine the Horseman would be taken along to places and at times when a 4x5 outfit remains at home or in the car?! I always carry my small Ricoh GR1s with me as it is so small. It has taken pictures that would otherwise never have been taken. My X-pan could serve this purpose but it hasn´t for unknown reasons.

I understand you liked the 55mm lens, which calls for very careful composition. It´s the lens offered with this second hand deal.

[t._lehman]

Peter

 

This is pretty much a tripod camera. Not that you don't have a lot of room to fiddle. I did use it with provia handheld a few times. However, I'm the type that likes to go for infinite depth of field -- tripod F32 30 seconds in a dark temple, that kind of thing. My original thought was that it would go a lot of places that a 4x5 wouldn't. It could, but with the tripod and all it rarely did. That plus the difficulty using the ground glass or judging shifts made me decide that I was probably better off with a 4x5.

I'm still making up my mind about that. Where the horseman is better than the 4x5 is even with all the fooling around it might require it still sets up and takes down far faster than the 4x5 does. If your in an area where you are concerned about the people around you both cameras attract attention, but the 4x5 takes more fiddling by far. You could set the Horseman at f32 and figure you had pretty much everything in front of it in focus with the 55 mm lense and just worry about the exposure.

As you mention. There's a time and place for every sort of camera. The 612 is a middle ground. Easier and quicker than 4x5 but not as flexible. Much more trouble than 35mm, but not much more trouble than say a Mamya 7 as long as your comfortable using a hand held meter.

Hope this helps.

[nicholas_t.]

A 4x5 is probably <i>the</i> sensible choice in terms of cameras, but that Horseman is one desirable piece of kit! Helical focussing on a 55 <i>apo</i>-grandagon! Compact, and built for speed... The advantage of 6x12 and the use of a 4x5 enlarger is good one because even though 5x7's (I am thinking of 6x17 as the <i>other</i> alternative here) are available at ridiculously low prices (although not as common), having the space to use one is another question as they are that much bigger again as 4x5 (assuming you print your own...).

[andreas_carl]

Held one in my hand in a camera store in Tokyo, couldn't quite bring myself to buying it, if I can get the exact same lenses (minus the mount) for less than half the price. I think a 6x9 small view camera is more useful.

[john_elder1]

Don't forget the Brooks Verywide 100 which has a fixed 47mmSuper Angulon producing a 6x10 negative. This a great street camera as well as a good landscape camera.

[thomas_diekwisch1]

I like mine. It's an odd hybrid. However, it goes well in addition to the medium format SLRs or to a Fuji GSW. The format is really pleasing and guarantees some unusual perspectives.

 

The lens of choice is the 45mm. It justifies the extreme camera and it allows for handheld shooting at 1/30 second on a routine basis.

 

When you consider the center filter (+2/2.5), a 100ASA film, and f11 as a reasonable open f stop, you'll end up with 1/30 in sunshine. Thus, for handheld shots, 100ASA, and 1/30 of a second you need sunshine. Once sunshine is gone, you have to change film. Thus, the standard film for this camera for handheld photography is a 400ASA film. That's still not an ideal combination, but it works and guarantees some pretty unusual perspectives. Then, you may wonder whether you really take advantage of those Rodenstocks with a 400 film and handheld shots at 1/30. Which makes it obvious that the camera is specialized. On the other hand, there is nothing like it out there. There are many medium format applications for the camera, especially since the SLR wide angle lenses usually fall short.

 

Instead of mounting the Horseman on a tripod, I often use a 4x5 as well (instead of the Horseman). On the other hand, it doesn't have the plane of film issues of the 4x5, which is good when using wide angles at infinity.

 

The 45mm APO Grandagon is plain extraordinary. Great contrast and sharpness. Almost made for this camera. To me, the perfect combination. Instead of medium format SLRs, I'd say that the Horseman with its 45mm manages 1/30 and handheld quite well.

 

The format is huge and I have never understood why anybody would go for 6x17. Prints are magnificent.

[w.a._steiner]

Dear Peder,

 

I have bought a horseman sw612p with the 35mm, the 55mm and at least with the 135mm lens, a 6x12 and a 6x9 Magazin. Its the best camera I have ever worked with. Look at my gallery and see by yourself. If you want you can send me a email and we can talk about. My email adress is: nikon.webmaster@aon.at

 

Best regards

 

Wolfgang Steiner

[sunwei]

<p>I have recently bought a Horseman 612 SW/ 45mm lens, but don't know how to use it. The handbook which came with the lens contains very minimal information. It appears that f4.5 is only used if you are using a glass focussing screen, I am not, indeed as a landscape photographer it would be practically useless as there is insufficient light to see.<br>

The handbook suggest a minimum f-stop of f11. Okay I also have a photometer, or could use my digital camera to find the appropriate f-stop to use.<br>

I have been using Fuji Velvia ASA 50 and Fuji Acros ASA 100 film, but don't know how to set the lens for either film, any suggestions. So far I have only achieved one beautiful image, see: <a href="http://sunwei.photoshelter.com/">http://sunwei.photoshelter.com/</a> Please help me?</p>

 

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>What strikes me is that very few of the Photo.net readers seem to own one</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I don't expect many can affordf one. I made my own version: <a href="http://stevesmithphoto.webs.com/pano612.html">http://stevesmithphoto.webs.com/pano612.html</a></p>

[sunwei]

<p>Dear Steve Smith,<br>

Wow! OK its still WIP, but you have very nearly completed a fine camera. In fact I have for a long time been most interested in camera design. Congratulations on your craftsmanship.<br>

I'm not encouraging people to make patent infringements, but see the need for much cheaper digital backs, like those made by LEAF for the Contax 645 AF and Mamiya 645. A couple of years ago I saw a really inexpensive one manufactured here in China, but unfortunately lost contact with the photographer. My friend in London is a professional photographer and wants me to locate a digital back for his large format SINAR camera, he's still waiting.</p>

[sunwei]

<p>To Joseph Hoflehner,<br>

having seen some of your images taken with your Horseman 612SW/with 45mm lens camera and it has inspired me not to give up with trying to master this fine camera. I particularly liked your mountain high walkway scenes and your fine art photography books, especially 'Frozen History'. As I have already indicated there is no-one here in China to help me get started, I need to find out how to set the Rodenstock 45 mm lens for the film I am using: Fuji Velvia 100, 50 and Fuji Acros 100. Please, please can somebody help me?<br>

I sold most of my Contax 645 AF gear to get some cash to return to China, I feel like a cowboy without a gun!</p>