Mounting a Nikkor IX onto a Fuji S2 Pro/D100, etc

[christiankiely]

I know that I�ve asked this question before somewhere, but I don�t

think it was on photo.net and I don�t think that I ever got to the

bottom of my answer. I did search photo.net forums and I didn�t see

anything, so here goes.

 

I am trying to determine the feasibility of mounting a 20-60mm Nikkor

IX onto a Fuji S2 Pro (or consider any traditional Nikon camera, or

D100, etc). As you know, IX series lenses were designed to be used w/

Nikon�s SLR APS film cameras (i.e. Pronea 6i). The Pronea accepts

standard Nikon lenses, but suffers from a similar magnification

effect as using standard lenses on a Nikon mount digital camera

(something around 1.4x or 1.5x).

 

The Nikkor IX 20-60mm is a very small compact lens that for me would

be a great range for landscape work. I would like to carry one lens

when hiking or biking, but my current wide zoom (24 - 50) is becomes

more of standard lens (~33 � 70) when on the S2. Even if the math

didn�t work out to the lens equaling a 20mm exactly it would still be

much wider than my current setup.

 

I already own a Sigma 20mm 1.8 that is a very nice lens, perhaps

around 28mm on the S2, but it is huge, uses 82mm filters and fixed

focal length. This is my favorite lens, but when space is limited and

I want to carry one lens it makes things difficult.

 

I have some IX lenses sitting around and I have in fact been able to

get one of them mounted on a traditional Nikon body and it meters, AF

works, etc. It took some modifications, but it is on properly. But,

the lens element protrudes back into the camera and interferes with

the mirror� there�s not enough clearance.

 

So, I was thinking that an extension tube might solve that issue. I

don�t shoot macro and I�ve never used one before. I do understand

that they have the effect of increasing focal length, which has the

potential of negating the intended effect. But, bear in mind that the

lens element is going to go backwards thru the tube toward the

film/CCD plane so some of that effect would be minimized. Like I said

earlier, even if this became a 24mm that would be wider than what

I�ve currently got.

 

Thoughts? (other than telling me to go get one of the new super-wide

lenses designed for digitals.)

[neil_parker]

If the lens will only work by using an extension tube, then you won't be able to focus to infinity!

[christiankiely]

OK. Can you briefly explain that? I've never worked with them before and I don't really understand the technical aspects.

 

What if, after using the extension tube, the rear lens element was where the camera is expecting a traditional lens element to be? I hope I'm making sense.

[roland_vink]

I was under the impression that the IX lenses protrude further back into the camera than normal lenses. This is possible because the reflex mirror on APS cameras is smaller, due to the smaller image format. IX lenses should not be mounted on 35mm format cameras because the rear of the lens will collide with the larger reflex mirror.

 

I don't know the situation with DX cameras since I've never inspected one. One might expect they would also have a smaller mirror to cover the smaller image size. If you have a film camera and DX camera, it would be worth comparing the mirrors. If the mirror is smaller, then IX lenses could potentially work. If they are the same size, don't try it!

 

If the mirror is smaller, DX lenses don't seem to take advantage of it. DX lenses don't protrude into the camera more than normal lenses, the DX 12-24 zoom can be used successfully on film cameras (in the 17-24 range) and I have not heard of any reports of mirror collisions.

[christiankiely]

>I was under the impression that the IX lenses protrude further back

>into the camera than normal lenses

 

This is correct.

 

re: mirror sizes. The mirror of the Pronea 6i is much smaller than a standard 35mm. The mirror of the S2 Pro is the same size as a N6006, but I don't think it uses the whole mirror.

 

Yes yes yes, I know... square peg, round hole ;)

[neil_parker]

Th Nikon APS cameras use the same nikon F mount as the 35mm cameras, they have the same 'back focus' distance. (This must be true because the APS cameras were able to use the standard AF nikkor lenses). If you use an extension tube to space out the lens further then you are effectively making it a macro lens, it will be able to focus closer than before, but will no longer be able to focus to infinity. The problem seems to be that nikon designed the APS cameras with smaller mirrors, because they have smaller viewfinders, and they correspondingly designed the IX lenses to take advantage of this extra clearance.

 

OTOH the DSLR bodies were mostly based on 35mm film bodies (N80 for your fuji and many others) and the full size mirrors were retained. Nikon recommends against using the IX lenses on film bodies and I have heard of people getting lenses stuck on these bodies, so be careful!

[gary_watson]

I wasn't aware that the Nikon APS SLRs accepted standard F mount lenses(ergo, why the small collection of apparently "dedicated" lenses for the ill-fated Proneas that fit nothing but,er, Proneas?).That you're having problems with the S2(F80) mirror whacking the APS lenses seems to reinforce the point,no?

[christiankiely]

OK guys, thanks for the answers.

 

re: the ill fated Pronea only lenses. These lenses, the IX series, maintained the focal length specified. i.e. the 20-60 was a true 20-60 on that camera. If you put a non-IX 20-60 lens on it you'd get about a 28-84. However, the IX lenses will not fit on a non-APS camera because the rear element of the lens protrudes too far back and the mirror would hit it if you try to take a photo.

 

I have "modified" (read: it involved a saw) a 20-60 IX Nikkor that is doing me no good right now. It *does* fit onto my S2 and will meter, and it still meters, focuses and shoots on a Pronea that I have lying around too. All that I really did was to remove a protrusion that keeps the mount from fitting onto another camera, it is like a little plastic piece, nothing major.

 

When I view thru the IX lens mounted on my S2 there are no dark areas that suggest that it is missing parts of the mirror, etc. I know that I am totally out of my element technically here, but what I am saying is that to the untrained eye it seems that it should work. That notion I am learning is incorrect. I was hoping that all I'd need to do is put an extension ring on there to move the rear element of the lens forward so that it didn't hit the mirror and viola, instant wide zoom out of a otherwise useless lens.

[NetR]

The one IX lens that I handled had a collar that extended back towards the mirror but no lens element in it. It would have been possible to cut off that collar. As I understood it, the collars were placed there to prevent people from being able to mount IX lenses on normal 35mm cameras and then complaining about not getting full coverage on the film. So back then there was no point in cutting off the collar.

 

But now we have APS sized sensors on DSLRs. You should be able to cut off any excess material back to the lens mount or rear element, whichever you reach first, as long as you don't remove something that is helping locate the rear element in place. So it is probably possible to do a hacksaw job on an IX lens and get something useful for a DSLR. That is, so that there is nothing sticking back into the camera to prevent the shutter from working properly. And it would be pretty cheap, as long as you don't count the value of your time. If you have a go, be very careful to ensure that no shavings get into the works - block off the lens internals. And please tell us how you get on.

 

Regards, Ross

[gary_watson]

No worries, Christian. It's always worth a try if it's not life-threatening. A friend bought the last Pronea model and some lenses when Nikon.ca was quietly liquidating them. Despite the limited film choices(not to mention the limitations of the film format), the Pronea system produced first-rate prints.The bodies were nicely designed and made a high-quality, almost pocketable travel kit. Canon's stainless steel-clad APS SLR was also a great design exercise.

[roland_vink]

<i>I have "modified" (read: it involved a saw) a 20-60 IX Nikkor that is doing me no good right now. It *does* fit onto my S2 and will meter, and it still meters, focuses and shoots on a Pronea that I have lying around too. All that I really did was to remove a protrusion that keeps the mount from fitting onto another camera, it is like a little plastic piece, nothing major.

<p>

When I view thru the IX lens mounted on my S2 there are no dark areas that suggest that it is missing parts of the mirror, etc. I know that I am totally out of my element technically here, but what I am saying is that to the untrained eye it seems that it should work. </i>

<p>

the IX lens may fit the S2 (and any 35mm camera), in the sense it will mount without hitting the mirror. The situation changes when you take a picture: the mirror flips up, and may hit the rear of the lens.

Without knowing how much you cut off the rear of the lens, it is impossible to say if this would happen. My guess is that you would need to cut more than a bit of plastic for it to clear the mirror...

Perhaps you should wait for the new 17-70 DX zoom to be released, it's probably a better lens than the IX 20-60.

<p>

<i>I was hoping that all I'd need to do is put an extension ring on there to move the rear element of the lens forward so that it didn't hit the mirror and viola, instant wide zoom out of a otherwise useless lens.</i>

<p>

Nice try, but you would loose infinity focus and gain a "macro zoom"

[christiankiely]

"The IX lens may fit the S2 (and any 35mm camera), in the sense it will mount without hitting the mirror"

 

YES! That is exactly the problem... it *does* hit the mirror, I know that for a fact. I have tried it on an N6006 that I bought on eBay, I would not try it on my S2. That was the whole crux of the "will an extension ring help" question.

 

But, from you all I have learned that it is technically possible to do, but I would lose the ability to focus to infinity. And, if that is the case, then forget it.

[alex_j]

<a href="http://www.nikon-image.com/eng/PDF/d100_12p.pdf">http://www.nikon-image.com/eng/PDF/d100_12p.pdf</a>

 

<p>

On Page 10 of the PDF:<br>

Lens Compatibility Chart (IX-Nikkor lenses cannot be used).<br>

<p>

I guess they put that there for a reason.<br>

Regards, Lex

[christiankiely]

OK, I'm hoping to put this issue to rest for once and for all, yeah right. Here is a photo of the two lenses that I have referenced, the Nikkor IX 20-60 and the Sigma 20 1.8.

 

As you will see, given the same mounting point, the rear element of the Nikkor IX extends farther back than the Sigma 20 (both at a focal length of 20mm). So, assuming that I could find an extension ring that would bring the rear element to the same position that the S2 would expect to find the Sigma 20, is there a reason why this would not work?

 

It may be an optics question that I don't understand, that is possible, if not probable. I guess in laymans terms, if I can put the rear element of the lens exactly where the S2 expects it to be, would I still lose infinity focus?

 

PS as you can see from my photo, you macro guys are safe from me!<div></div>

[neil_parker]

Please read the above postings. If you put a spacer between the mount and the lens, you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FOCUS TO INFINITY! It doesn't matter where the rear element is, that varies considerably between different lens designs.

[NetR]

It is an optics question. The curve of the lens elements was designed so that the image would be in focus when the lens was MOUNTED correctly. The actual distance from the rear element to the film is not important. Using an extension tube with the IX lens will not help you at all.

 

Regards, Ross

[christiankiely]

OK thanks. This is a dead subject... I'm done w/ the questions. That was just a last ditch effort to see if the difference in rear element would change things.

 

And by dead, I mean really dead. I even found a camera shop today that stocked the 14mm extension ring and let me try it out. You guys were 100% correct, forget about infinity focus, try like a few feet. Besides, another issue all together is that the IX lenses have no aperature ring and w/ the extension ring you lose the ability to change it, so the camera just reads "f EE" and will not even take a shot.

 

But, what if... just kidding :)