Old folder good for a beginner?

[dan_brittain]

I am getting ready to take the step into medium format and was

wondering if one of the old folding cameras would be good. I do not

want to spend much and first thought about a TLR. I hear so many

good things about the folders and most of the time they seem to come

pretty cheap. Are folders good to get your foot in the door? Which

ones would be preferable?

Thanks

Dan

[roger_michel]

Folders can be very frustrating -- so much potential for film flatness (at least in 6x9) and focus problems. The rangefinders in Ikontas and Bessas were not well designed and are not durable. The lolly tongs in Bessas are easily bent. Do yourself a favor and stay away -- at least on your first foray. Instead, go for a TLR. Doubtless many MFDers after me will recommend various Yashicas (and someone will speak up for the Autocord). Again, do yourself a favor and get a Rollei -- a nice T or an E type. Nothing is built like a Rollei, and the difference in cost between a Rollei and a pristine Yashica (the only kind you want to buy) is about $150. Good luck!

[durocshark]

I too would be reluctant to recommend a folder to a beginner.

 

Even if you get a good one (Ikonta, et al) with a rangefinder, there is no guarantee that it will be accurate. That with the film flatness and durability issues mentioned above, makes me say "Just say NO".

 

Yashica A TLR's are durable, have decent lenses (though the Autocords are much better, they also tend to be more expensive) and easy to use. I've got 2 Yashica A's and love them both.

 

They can be found for around $50. An excellent value.

[lei_chen]

While not my first MF camera, I have an Agfa Isolette that I carry around. While I agree that there are many potential problems, there are many who find these rather charming in their own way. Mine makes pretty good 8X10's with good technique, meaning limiting to F11 or smaller, take measures to limit camera shake, etc. I will be happy to email you some samples taking with that camera. <br>

The question whether or not it's good for a beginner depends on what you are willing to put up with. It takes a greater effort to achieve good results. But you will learn some principles of photography in the process. If you mean by "beginner" someone who don't want to put up with lack of any sort of automation then you'd better look elsewhere.<br>

 

Also this is a great source of (mostly positive) opinions on folders.

 

http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/folder.html

<br>

Good luck and warm regards.

[andrew_schank]

My first medium format camera over 20 years ago was a Rolleicord V. Well, I still own and use this camera, even though I now own a Pentax 645 system. I also have two old folders and find I don't use them as much as the Rolleicord. The finders aren't that good in the folders making composition difficult. The Rollei produces superb quality negatives as good as any I've seen, is easy to use, lightweight, and can take close up lenses and filters easily. They are readily available in great shape for under $200.00.

[murray_twelves2]

Hi Dan -

 

I agree that there are too many variables in the proper functioning of old folders (light-tight bellows, alignment of the front standard, film flatness in 6x9s), and that a TLR would be a better way to get started.

 

I personally love TLRs, and I have Minolta Autocords, Yashicas, and Rolleis. Reading between the lines, I'm guessing that you are looking for the best value possible in a low price, and I don't see Rolleis in this price range.

 

Your best value in a budget TLR would be a Yashica, in my opinion. The top Yashica TLRs are the Yashica Mats, which have crank wind and a Tessar-type (Yashinon) lens. The best values are in the earlier Yashica Mats, which were also better made. The weakest part of the Yashica Mat is the crank wind mechanism.

 

The Yashicas A, C, and D have film advance by knob, and are very rugged. The early 3-element Yashikor lens on the Yashica A is a little soft, but the effect is pleasant. It is a very simple camera, with the basic controls, and it is a good value.

 

I think the best value of all budget TLRs is the Yashica D. The later Yashikor lenses in this model (and probably the C), from what I've heard, are noticeably sharper than the earlier Yashikors on the A. Some of the later Yashica D's also had the 4-element Yashinon lens. These cameras have the rugged knob wind, and they are cocked manually, so you can do multiple exposures with them. You should be able to get one of these for under a hundred dollars.

 

Moving up in price, I think the Rolleis are wonderful, but I give the nod to the Minolta Autocord.

 

Good luck!

[chuck_pere]

Depends on how you will use the camera. The big advantage of folders is the compact size. I regularly use an Agfa Isolette which has a better Solinar lens. Makes very good 7x7's. The Isolette lenses in order of quality (IMHO) are Solinar(Tessar type), Apotar, Agnar. If you don't need the compact size a TLR would be a better option. You would have to get used to the lower camera position using a waist level finder. If you plan to mostly work slow on a tripod a 2x3 Graphic is fairly cheap and much more versatile. But Graphic use is slow and the camera is large. I use a Century Graphic as a view camera lite.

 

One thing about getting a folder is that no matter what you add in the future it's nice to have a compact camera around for certain occasions. I would stick with the 6x6 models for smaller size and less film flatness issues. Models include the Isolette and similar Asnco Speedex. Try for at least an Apotar lens. The Voigtlander Perkeo is another good 6x6 folder but models with the better Color-Skopar lens are getting expensive. Another good model would be the Zeiss Ikonta B (not super) with Tessar lens. None of these have coupled rangefinders. You guess the distance and adjust the lens by hand. I like to use D3200 film so I can use small stops. Big advantage to TLR's here. Rangefinder folders with better lenses can be expensive. I would recommend trying a cheap scale focus model first to see if you like folders.

Chuck

[jonathan_bundick]

I truly love my old folders, light and compact, but honestly have not run more than about 20 rolls of film through the two working models that I have. I purchased all on Ebay, and each one had leaking bellows. All shutters were off by about ½ to 1 stop. That being said, some are capable of taking great pictures, and the problems can be fixed.

 

Light leaks: If you go ahead and buy a folder, and I think you may want to at some time, even if it is not your first MF, read this first. http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/bronbelfix.html

I have fixed light leaks using several of the methods mentioned here, but your best bet is to have new bellows made. I have not had this done myself, but have investigated the price, around $85 - $100. There is also one seller on Ebay that advertises Agfa Records with new bellows, and a recent CLA. He calls them �users.� Check the posts. He usually has something on at least every two weeks.

 

Shutter speeds: On all my folders, and my one TLR, a Yashica A, the shutter speeds are off. I measure them by recording the shutter on my computer with Cool Edit 2000. You can determine speed within about 1/5 of a stop up to shutter speeds of 1/100sec. Over that it gets harder to see the necessary peaks. Having them adjusted is not necessary if you know what the shutter is doing for any marked speed. Just take note card with the actual speeds handy, and adjust accordingly.

 

TLR�s: Some have suggested a Yashica A. I have this camera, and it is built like a tank. I think a 6 to 8 foot drop to hard pavement would not destroy it providing it did not land on the front of the camera. It does have some drawbacks. As mentioned, the shutter speeds will most likely be off. I think even the vaunted Rollie�s of the 50�s and 60�s would have inaccurate shutters if they have not been serviced. Also the Yashica A has a very limited shutter speed range. 1/25 1/50 1/100 and 1/300, but don�t expect it to fire at 1/300. These may be OK for some shots, but at smaller apertures, in good evening or morning light, you will want a more versitle range on the slower end. I wish I had purchased a Yashica D with a Yashinon lens. It has a wider shutter speed range, with more speeds on the slow end, and a 4 element lens. I love my A, but will buy a D latter this year, and wish I had purchased a D first.

 

I will make two recommendations. (1) If you want a first TLR, buy a Yashica D with a Yashinon lens. (2) For a first folder, take a look at the Russian Moskva 5. Coupled range finder, mine is dead on, and a decent 4 element lens. None of these are = to Blads, or Rollie�s, but for under $100 one should not expect the top of the line. Also the marginal gain in resolving power/$$$$ is not paramount for most of us who are not making a living at this. Image size beats resolving power almost every time.

 

Good luck, ENJOY, and post a few of your results.

[roger krueger]

Another fairly cheap option, also built like a tank, is the Mamiya Press system. The standard lens, either a 100/3.5 or 90/3.5, is an adequate lens that should beat just about any folder or 3-element TLR lens and be the equal of 4-element TLR lenses. The Mamiya (non-Graflex) backs are still among the best for film flatness. The rangefinder/viewfinder is huge. And you can get a complete, if ugly, camera for under $200. When you have more money there are some truly great lenses available at decent prices - the 100/2.8 is a 6 element/4 group Planar design that is amazing even wide open and often goes for under $250, the 50/6.3 on 6 x 9 is the equivalent of 21mm on 35mm and remarkably sharp and distortion free, under $700.

 

Drawbacks? No meter, no interlocks, wind and cock separately, need to keep on top of rangefinder adjustment if camera is subjected to vibration. (like going for rides in a car).

[mattn]

Dan --

<p>

Against the advice I've read from most others in this thread, a folder was the first MF camera I purchased. The intention was to have a highly transportable MF camera for black and white photography, primarily. I've had several years experience with 35mm (Nikon n90s system), shooting primarily urban subjects in Chicago.

<p>

I purchased two MF cameras, both over eBay: a Moskva-5 and a Iskra-2. Both are Russian copies of Zeiss folders. The Moskva-5 was sold by this guy with a Russian name who always lists about 10 of these on eBay at all times. He lied about the quality of the camera -- it leaks light and has a big scratch on the inner lens element. The Iskra-2 is great. Absolutely mint condition, 6x6 format, great lens, accurate shutter speeds, etc.

<p>

My impressions are as follows:

<p>

1. If you are used to 35mm, prepare for your photography to slow down immensely. You'll need a separate light meter (and for B&W, a spot meter would be the best), and the process of loading the film, focusing, metering, setting the shutter speed and aperture, cocking the shutter, exposing and manually advancing the film takes a stupendous amount of time. Perversely, this has made my photography better, as I've learned to anticipate and plan more than I needed to with 35mm. This will be the same regardless of whether you use an old folder or TLR.

<p>

2. Each folder manufacturer has a top of the line model with better, 4-element lens, in addition to a cheaper, priced-to-move model. Only purchase the best systems from any manufacturer. The site mentioned in previous posts is a great place to research this.

<p>

3. Only buy cameras in MINT + condition.

<p>

4. Try to buy models that came out in the late 50's / early 60s. They are much better engineered than the stuff made in the late 40s/early 50s, in my (somewhat limited) experience and research.

<p>

5. You can probably cross Zeiss Ikontas off your list. Collectors drive the price of these things upwards of $400. You can get Agfa Isolettes, Voightlander Bessas and Iskra-2's that will take just as good a photo for $100 - $175.

<p>

6. Once you've got a mint-condition, late model, top-lens system, forget about everyone that argues that a TLR or other system will produce better photos. It won't. One of these old folders, combined with modern films, is capable of producing a photograph of better <i>technical</i> quality than anything Harry Calahan, Roy DeCarava, Dorthea Lange, Walker Evans, or Tina Modotti were able to get with the technology of the 20's - 40's. The limiting factor in the quality of your photographs will probably be your creativity, not the ultimate resolution of your lens. You'll know when that changes (I'm still living for the day that my folder can't keep up with me...).

<p>

Overall, I highly recommend folders as a great introduction to MF photography, provided you get the right camera. Recently, I purchases a Mamiya C330, which I also love. Its a TLR with interchangeable lenses. It would also make a great way to start. But due to its size, the TLR usually stays at home. The folder, on the other hand, goes in my coat pocket every day, along with my light meter. I've taken a lot of great photographs I would have missed if all I had was a TLR, sitting (usually) on my desk at home.

<p>

I hope my experience is helpful. Good luck!

[conrad_hoffman]

Agreeing with most posts, unless you're technically savvy and can be sure your folder is up to snuff, stick with a TLR. The Yashicas are a good choice, with the original MAT-124 my favorite- IMHO the later MAT-124G isn't quite as pretty. The Autocords are also good and a bit better optically, but are often in need of cleaning and lubrication. The under-the-lens focusing lever can be a bit stiff. Also, one post mentioned that a Yashica might survive a 2' drop to concrete. Long ago I did exactly that. The body casting cracked and no repair was possible. That was the end of my first Yashica :-( so watch that the clips holding it into the case are securely fastened.

[jeff callen]

I realize this thread is old, but I really, really, really love my Iskra-2 folder. I second the comments above about a high quality folder versus ordinary folders. I never use my moskva-5 (film flatness problem,etc)

 

<rant>

 

The Iskra has changed the way I shoot, put the fun back into the art form... I can carry it everywhere, whip it out of a pocket, shoot, fold it back up and put it back in the pocket and not look attract any attention. Quiet shutter too, and much less need for a tripod as it is a rangefinder. I have much more expensive stuff, but 75% of my shots are now made on the Iskra.

 

Negs taken with the Iskra are equivilant to those produced by my Mamiya TLR, and I've made large sharp prints with both. I can also crop quite a bit and still get a good print if I use 100ASA film.

 

The Iskra viewfinder is much better than the one in the moskva, but it does take some getting used to, and the Iskra's rangefinder has been accurate at distances like 4 feet at f4... The meter is off, but that's to be expected in a camera that's almost 40 years old.

 

My only gripe is the oddball filter size.

 

</rant>

 

also....if you can stand a large, heavy, strange camera, look at a Koni-Omega, I rented one once and got surprisingly good 6x7 negatives.

[cxc]

For the record, the guy on eBay currently goes by the ID of 'certo6'. I have one of his refurbished Isolettes, which is a delightful camera. I get a kick out of it every time I pop it open.

 

I would estimate that using a manual camera takes me at most 20 seconds longer than a point-and-shoot to fire off. If your subject is not moving, this length delay need not be a problem.