Mountain summit point-n-shoot

[jeff_nadler2]

With plans for multiple backpacking trips this summer to alpine

summits, I'd like to leave my Canon EOS equipment at home and buy

either the Yashica T-4 or Olympus Stylus Epic. Yes, there are

numerous posts comparing these top fixed lens point-n-shoots, but

most comments are on portrait use-flash,red-eye,and focus issues.

With plans to only use such a camera for distant mountain panoramas,

can anyone offer advice to select one of these two? Given my subject

matter,I would think my criteria should be the lens,depth of field

logic,and metering issues for nature scenes with bright sky and

darker forests.

[cosmo_genovese]

Check out the Contax T3 at http://www.kyocera.co.jp/news/2001/0102/0001-e.asp for what appears to be the ultimate fixed lens, battery-powered point & shoot--a 35mm Sonnar T* f/2.8 lens in a body the same size or maybe a little smaller than the Yashica T4 (also by Kyocera) and the Epic.

[paulv]

Jeff,

 

I'll address your question, which regards a choice between two cameras you mentioned. I know and like the Stylus, but I have never owned one.

 

I *do* own a few T4s. One is getting old, another is an ancient one that's a bit fritzy, but I can't bear to toss it yet cause it still works, and the other two are backup cause I hear they're discontinuing them, Zeiss no longer wanting their name associated with cheaper cameras.

 

I guess you can tell that I love the T4. More to the point, I have backpacked with it and taken some great shots with it. It's light, weatherproof and has a great lens. I can't recommend it enough for what you want to do with it.

[cosmo_genovese]

And, as far as your question concerns a choice between the T4 and the Epic, I've traveled all over Europe and the United States with an Epic and marveled at its lens' ability to capture and render sharp, crisp photos. The lens of the Epic has excellent contrast; it's compact, extremely portable, and I especially like a feature of its design which allows you to slide a clamshell cover over the lens for protection. It is weather resistant. On trips I generally keep it loaded with color film as a complement to my M6 which shoulders the responsibility for black and white; but, from time to time I load the Epic with some Tri-X, too, and fool the DX Coder into setting the ISO as 200. The nighttime exposure setting is a true plus as well as the spotmeter, both of which enhance this camera's versatilty and capability to go anywhere under almost any lighting condition. As with any choice between two cameras with the same (equal) features, the one that feels better in your hands and through whose viewfinder you can visulaize ("feel") the pictures you're striving for with more visual ease and acuity is the one to go with, which was the way I came to select the Epic over the T4.

[gregruskin]

A major problem with the T4 in a mountaineering setting is the total lack of user control: you cannot set F-stops. The camera will choose F stops based on its program. The 35mm focal length is OK,however many might preferr a 28 mm lens if your'e using only one lens, given somewhat better depth of field and a wider angle of vision. To achieve the classic near-far perspective so useful in the mountains, f-stops in the f8-f16 range are often preferred.In good weather, the light is intense at typical alpine heights (8-15K), and since the shutter speed on most point and shoots stops at 500 or 750, ability to set a high F stop is also useful. I would strongly suggest checking out the Ricoh GR1s (available for about $350 from Robert White photography in the UK - I got one delivered in N.Y. in 2 days for a friend. The GR1 has achieved cult status and has been reviewed on photo net and other sites. It is lighter than your choices (6 oz), smaller, and sturdier than the T4. It allows user controlled F stops from 2.8 to 22 in aperture priority mode, with a superb lens which most reviewers rate as better than T4. On climbing trips I routinely keep it in a front pocket. The 28 lens is perfect for alpine shots. My last batch of photos were from the european Alps and produced stunning 11 X 14 enlargements that rival Nikor primes. For a light weight "main" camera, consider the contax G1: the body is 16 oz., and the lenses (28, 35) weigh around 5 oz. The camera is heavily discounted because most people buy the slitely heavier and more expensive G2(faster autofocus, slitely more accurate near range framing); however, at aroung 700 dollars, its a steal and will blow away any point and shoot. The contax t2, t3 etc cost more than the G1, weigh at 10 oz. plus, and are not better than the ricoh. I strongly suggest you search the photo net archives on Ricoh GR1, T4 etc., there's a huge amount of user review. That said, for mountaineering, you could never part me from the GR1: for price/performance/wieght it cant't be beat. The lens is as good as they say. Also check out the nature forum and search under "mountaineering".

[tonybynum]

Jeff, I have owned the T-4 for several years. If you are setting out for "alpine summits," you are going to be a long distance from a town with a camera shop. I would recommend the T-4 if for nothing else then its durability. I assume you already know it's one of the best if not the best compact point and shoot available in the price range. I have taken if all over the country and it's been in natures extremes and has never let me down. Here are the reasons I would buy the camera (not noting the picture quality as it is excellent!):

 

1. durable, for mountaineering you need dependable equipment

2. light weight

3. Easy to use with gloves, you can actually select limited f-stops. The T-4 has an infinity setting, that means it has to have a small aperture and you can override the auto funtion.

4. the top view finder (Super Scope)is a great bonus. I use it all the time for composing shots from low camera angles and from above my head (i turn the camera upside down and hold it over my head and compose the shot, great for when your in the brush or around objects that limit your view - try that with the Stylus - you'll be surprised at how much you really will use it.

5. Durable, did I say that already. I've dropped mine from chest and waist level on granite. I've used it in bad weather, snowing and raining. While skiing and climbing, and it still performs! Try that with a Stylus.

6. I did have a problem once with the brand new model, right out of the box. But, I found it during my first test (before I took in on a long trip) and Yashica replaced, no cost.

Drawbacks:

1. Fixed focal length. It would be nice to have a zoom, but what you get instead is worth the tradeoff.

2. Control buttons could be a little larger, but I can still use them with mittens on.

3. Special camera battery that cost a little more $

4. Would be nice to have the entire range of stop adjustiment and speed control

 

All-n-all, If you buy a T-4 you will take more pictures and that's what photography's about anyway.

[nigel whitaker]

OLYMPUS XA?

 

Small, light, batteries last for ages due to manual focus and film wind. You can (have to) set the film speed manually, and you get rangefinder focussing and aperture priority exposure with 35mm, f/2.8 lens, and the lens quality is very good too.

[bobatkins]

I've used a number of small P&S cameras including the stylus epic and the olympus XA. Currently my choice in a small, autoeverything P&S is the Minolta Freedom Explorer zoom. The lens is very sharp at the 28mm setting, dropping to "not bad" at 70mm. I think the ability to zoom is very useful indeed for landscapes where you simply can't "zoom with your feet" by getting closer. Focus and exposure are very good indeed. 28mm is a nice wideangle, the T4, epic and XA are all 35mm focal length.

 

If you want the best possible quality at low cost with maximum control, look for a used Canon QL17 GIII rangefinder. They are easy to find at $50-$75. Very, very good 40mm f1.7 lens. Full manual control of shutter speed and aperture. Full control of focus (rangefinder). It also has shutter priority autoexposure. Much better image quality than any low end P&S camera at the expense of a little more weight and size. It will also work (but not meter) without a battery!

 

The GR1 isn't a bad idea either if cost isn't an issue.

[brian walsh]

In these photos from the top of <A HREF="http://clydesoles.com/Clydeland/Photo%20Gallery/photogallery.htm">8,000 meter Gashurbrum II</A>, you can see some results from one man's idea of a point and shoot for distant mountain panoramas. Clyde Soles only shows the results from his Mamiya 6 because of a malfunction of the 31 pound 7x17" panoramic camera he humped to the world's thirteenth highest summit. <P>

 

While cameras that weigh, alone, as much as the packs most strong mountaineers can carry at altitude seem to be out of your intended range, a camera which allows <I>you</I> to control the aperture and shutter speed--and which takes filters--would be worth considering, even if it weighs a few ounces more than either of the two cameras you mentioned.

[jeff_nadler2]

Kind thanks for all the advice. Perhaps I should bring my Elan IIe after all, with just a 50mm/1.8-mkI and polarizing filter. I do in fact love photos with nice sharp foreground framing a distant mountain range. It sounds like I would be very disappointed with no such control, no matter how sharp a T-4 lens might be.

[dane_skye1]

Both are pretty good cameras. I use the Stylus always, especially for lightweight climbs. It is decent with both prints and slides and the scenics are nice. It has a spot meter feature which is great for light in the mountains and getting a good exposure. It also has a tripod socket-you can get a plastic minipod and use it alone or velcrod to an ice axe for the group summit shot. This willnot replace a slr but is a nice compliment.

 

The T-4 is similar in most aspects.

 

Another option is to pick up a used Olympus XA camera. It is as small as the stylus and you can set the apeture. It is also mostly manual and uses very little juice. It produces great shots!!

 

Last option buy a $20-30 fixed focal length camera. Basically a disposable you can reload. For scenics the results are not Ansel Adams but pretty decent for 4x6 prints.

 

Good luck and climb on!!!

[durocshark]

These are all great answers, but here's another option:

 

Pick up a nice used rangefinder, like the Minolta 7s. You can control shutter and aperture, has a built in CdS meter (not ttl tho), and is nearly indestructable. Canon also has some nice durable RF's, but the Minolta ones go for $25 or less (Minolta doesn't have the badge value of Canon and others even though the camera rocks... I have one and the glass is VERY sharp and contrasty!)

 

Carry a backup. The Olympus will be great for that. Also an APS like the Elph will make a great backup. I've got a Samsung APS camera that was under $100 and has a great little lens. I have sunset enlargements from that camera at 8x10.

 

No matter what way you go, enjoy yourself!!!

[hearst]

You may want to worry about UV. A P&S probably won't take a filter. When I took one up high many years ago I bought Agfachrome, which at the time had a UV filter layer in the film. I don't know how modern films respond to UV but you should check.

[george_d._gianni]

Konica Hexar. Sturdy, full manual control of exposure and distance settings. Filter thread 46mm. Excellent f2/35mm lens.

[lanierb]

Jeff- I'm a climber also so I understand your intended use pretty well. I've never used a T4, (I have a Stylus Epic which I'm happy with), but my guess is either P&S will do well for you as a summit camera. I might have some bias toward the 28mm for mountaineering since you are often close to huge walls and need something wide. If you decide to bring your Canon, my advice would be to bring both the Canon and the P&S. The P&S is easier to carry and more likely to get used a lot, especially if you are at altitude and tired (or not feeling well), or if you are under time pressure, and its more likely to get carried on every side trip. If you don't bring it, you will invariably miss some shots.

[cisko]

Jeff, I'll add another vote for the Stylus Epic. There's lots of good reasons above but I'll add another: its ease of use. I can take it from a pocket, open it, and take a picture, using one hand while wearing ski gloves. I haven't used the T4 but from what I've seen it would be difficult to do the same thing. The only drawback is that you can't set exposure options (like flash control or the spot-meter option) without using two hands, and it's difficult while wearing gloves. For roughly US$90, this is a great camera -- and if reliability is a concern, you can bring two!

 

Cheers,

Dave

[jeff_nadler2]

Thanks for all of your advice. You've helped me make a decision and I'll share that as well as feedback on your comments. First, the suggestions to purchase a posh P & S are not desirable as I believe my 50mm/1.8 Canon lens will still be sharper than a $600 Contax, Konica, etc. The suggestions to buy a larger range finder are not much benefit vs. carrying the Elan. Suggestions to buy an older P & S seem to have issues with batteries, manual focus, etc. So I'm right back to the T-4 vs. Stylus. I believe that the T-4 might have the edge on lens quality but your comments on Stylus advantages seem over-whelming. The Stylus Epic it will be for the more challlenging backpacks and the Elan it will stay for reasonable day hikes. Finally, for tough lighting, I belief the Stylus spot meter provides the edge. Thanks again. These forums are much better than talking to any biased saleperson!

[imaginator]

Interesting that you mention using a polarized filter with your current camera. Also, that you want good depth of field and control over camera settings. How about a good UV 'haze" filter? It's starting to sound like you already have the camera you need: a SLR! Sure, there are some great P&S cameras, and they are lighter and "handy", BUT you have to consider ALL your specific needs, which in this case will most likely bring you "full cirle" back to using the SLR. Also, anything spent on a new P&S could have been used for items like filters, batteries, a lightweight tripod, ect. I suspect your main thinking was concerning the weight issue(or you are just afraid you might damage your current camera). Get over it! Be careful, aware, and take some pictures worthy of the subject matter. I assume you are going to use a tripod? I know... more to carry (I used to backpack and am fully aware that every ounce counts). Are you planning on bringing binoculars? Leave them at home and anything else that can be sacrificed to compensate for the extra weight of the camera gear. Find a way! BTW, i have nothing against P&S cameras, and I think every photographer should have one handy for unexpected photo opportunities, but in this case you are going to have to choose (when you are actually up there taking the photos you may tell yourself "you have chosen wisely".

[jeff_nadler2]

Well, I picked up a used T4 after all this. It is not the T4 super so I am wondering if the only difference is lack of top viewfinder and not weatherproof? Lens seems to be the same. Anyone hear of the Special Edition T4?

[gregruskin]

Jeff: this may be too late, but check out my portfolio on photo.net for several examples of mountain summits shot with the Ricoh GR1

[joseph_iannazzone]

This is not really an answer but a follow-up on the original question. Are the fully automated point and shoots (such as the Yashica T4) accurate anough for taking slides in an alpin environment? If so, what films would you recommend?