Leica Press Release: Ramifications

[fotografz]

I quoted part of this in a buried thread. But it is really important when

dovetailed with other news. Take note of the parts I placed in between >>> <<<< marks.

 

Leica Press Release 12/10/04

 

In the Leica R single-lens-reflex line, work on the digital back for LEICA R8

and LEICA R9 cameras - the LEICA DIGITAL-MODUL-R � is making good

progress in cooperation with Danish firm Imacon A/S and the Kodak ISS

sensor division. �The interim successes in the development confirm our

belief that we are on the right path to a successful solution�, according to

Mr. Coenen.

 

Another step in this direction is the development of a digital solution for

the Leica rangefinder system, >>> which has already been in the works for some

time.<<< (I wonder how long?) The Leica company now confirms the speculations

published in the Dow Jones Newswire of 6 February 2004.

 

For a long time, physical constraints were the obstacles to digital solutions

for rangefinder cameras: Because of the absence of a mirror box as it exists

in single lens reflex cameras, the rear element of a lens is often located very

near the image plane. As a result, light rays strike that plane at an oblique

angle, and this causes quality problems with today�s sensor technology.

�Based on a preliminary development project, we are now certain that a >>>> new

generation of sensors with improved micro-lenses <<<< (the same solution that

revamped the Kodak 14n I'll bet) >>>> will lead to an image

quality of the level that is expected of Leica�, informs Mr. Coenen.<<<< (this new Kodak

technology now MAY mean a full frame sensor in both the R Module and the M solution)

 

�With the new financial means, we are now in a favorable position for

developing a solution that will enable our customers to enjoy the superb

quality of our lenses to their full extent in digital applications as well�,

continued Mr. Coenen. According to the strict Leica standards, an image

resolution of at least 10 million pixels is required for this purpose. >>>>�In the

digital world, the true Leica M feeling also requires high precision

mechanisms and the renowned Leica range-viewfinder.<<<< (YES! There is a God)

According to Mr. Coenen, �The corresponding solution is now in preparation.� The LEICA

DIGITAL-MODUL-R has priority, because it will be introduced at photokina in

September 2004,>>>> but the two projects are partially intertwined, <<<< ( this could

be interpreted as meaning a digital module for the M, making it a dual purpose camera.

And that the bodies we now own can be also be used for digital capture) >>>>thus

gaining precious time for the digital Leica M camera<<<< ( Hope so).

[james_.1]

Ah the best is yet to come- eventually the digital M will be as seamless to use and equivalent quality imaging as the film counterpart.

[steve_chan5]

<i>>>> which has already been in the works for some time.<<< (I wonder how long?)</i>

<p>Leica would have been hopeless incompetent not to have some engineers working on this. You'd have to be amazingly credulous to have accepted Leica's official position at face value.

[ralph_barker]

Although it is sometimes dangerous to assume that press releases mean either what they say, or that which they could be reasonably interpreted to mean, I remain optimistic that Leica will do the right digital M thing. My guess, however, would be an all-digital M, rather than a digital back for current Ms. But, I'd be happy to be wrong in that regard.

[kevin m.]

Good news, 'cause the EOS system is a poor substitute for a

rangefinder camera.

[peter_n1664876959]

<i>>>> which has already been in the works for some time.<<< (I wonder how long?)</i><br><br>

 

One week - starting from the moment they found out about the Epson/CV announcement.

[dayton_p._strickland1]

This will mean we will be able to get all the digital advantages �

adjustable ISO, adjustable white balance, exposure confirmation

� without all the digital drawbacks (or shall I say digital camera

drawbacks) such as sluggish shutter release, poor autofocus

performance (and before you say it, have you ever tried to

manually focus an autofocus lens?), mirror-slap noise, mirror

blackout, etc. Hopefully this means we will get the good

technology without being saddle with all the bad.<div></div>

[feli]

Here are my two cents:

 

a) I don't think Leica is as dumb as many of us believe.

 

b) I'm pretty sure that Leica has had a digital M and R on their roadmap for a while. I believe that since they are a small company with limited resources, they decided to wait till the market started to settle down and high performance chips became available at more economic prices and in quantity.

 

c) I would bet money that the electronic shutter and AE in the M7 has always been planned as a vital step in Leicas roadmap to a digital M and not just because 25 years after everyone else Leica decided that these are mature technologies.

 

d) Lots of technology from the R-Digital back will spill over into the digital M. They do not have to invent the wheel twice.

 

e) Call me crazy, but if the R back comes out this fall I would suspect there will be a digital M within a year.

 

f) Here is my crystal ball projection:

 

Fullframe, 10-14 MP (as in Kodaks new 14pro). It will mostly look like an M7, but will probably be a little fatter due to the LCD screen etc. There may be (I hope) a black and white mode that does not use Bayer pattern interpolation, thus taking full advantage of the chip's resolution. I wouldn't be surprised if the slanted rewind crank turns into a dial for the menus and I would bet money that there will still be a advance lever to cock the shutter and retain "the classic camera feel" (I can already hear Erwin waxing about this) . Storage will probably be SD memory and microdrives.

 

The finder will not flare and it will come in black paint or chrome.

 

 

Feli

[stuart d]

"Leica Press Release 12/10/04"

 

Are Leica really issuing press releases 10 months ahead of time, or did this drop through a hole in the space-time continuum? If it's the latter, maybe they could drop a couple of their 4th generation digital M bodies from 2010 through the same hole and get a jump on the competition...

[dayton_p._strickland1]

Sorry about the quality of that picture. It sure looked a lot better

before I resized it! Embarrassing!

[jay_.]

<<You'd have to be amazingly credulous to have accepted Leica's official position at face value.>>

 

LMAO! Plenty of amazing folks on this forum then.

[fotografz]

Of course, the typo should read 2/10/04.

 

SD and Microdrives? Hope you meant CF cards. Frankly, I'll settle for SD cards. They

recently introduced one gig version, so that drawback has been eliminated.

 

AF speed, shutter lag, on current digitals????? You have got to mean the P&S toys, not the

Nikon and Canon DSLRs.

 

Science marches on.

 

Back to scanning my 11"X14" Leica prints who's negs I managed to lose.

[dayton_p._strickland1]

>>> AF speed, shutter lag, on current digitals????? You have got

to mean the P&S toys, not the Nikon and Canon DSLRs. <<<

 

Mostly the P&S toys but these problems do exist on the lower

end of some DSLRs (i.e., my Nikon D100 which I believe has

superb white balance and color and is nearly noiseless (read:

grain) at 1,600 when exposed properly.

[dlegaspi]

bleh. i think they just made such an optimistic press release to please their investors.

[feli]

>SD and Microdrives? Hope you meant CF cards. Frankly, I'll settle for >SD cards. They recently introduced one gig version, so that drawback >has been eliminated.

 

Leica has beens sticking SD cards in all of their cameras so far and they are a pretty stuborn bunch over there in Solms... ;-)

 

 

feli

[art__]

Whatever the card format, I hope it proves cumbersome to insert/remove them. In the interest of maintaining that M feel of course. :)

[cd thacker]

<i>I hope it proves cumbersome to insert/remove them. In the interest of maintaining that M feel of course. :)</i><p>

 

My sources tell me that inserting/removing ac ard will involve unscrewing the brass bottom plate, reaching inside with a special device (the SPECULOO) to detach the card module, and then accessing the card from there. Not cumbersome at all, once you get used to it.

[markci]

<i>and before you say it, have you ever tried to manually focus an autofocus lens?</i>

<p>

Yes, I do it all the time. What is the supposed problem?

[fotografz]

I think some of you are missing the point.

 

Kodak has supposedly fixed the full frame 14n by using the new micro lens technology (

one of my suggested solutions in past discussions BTW ; -) Leica is already working with

Kodak on the R solution. So why is it such a reach to believe it now could be applied to a M

solution? Also, Leica is striving for at least a 10 meg sensor, by the time they get to

manufacturing it could be bigger and MAYBE full frame because of the micro lens

breakthrough. If it is, then the M lenses will be able to sing in the manner we have grown

accustom to.

 

Feli, SD cards MAY end up replacing CF cards eventually. So using them is actually a pretty

forward thinking idea. The new Canon 1DMKII features double slots one of which is for SD

cards... which shows their growing influence. Canon is a huge player, and literally is

driving the bus right now. That they included SDs in their latest wonder camera is

therefore quite noteworthy (by the way, the 1DMKII can shoot to both cards at the same

time as far as I understand it, which is a breakthrough for certain critical applications).

Evidently, there are some sort of speed or secure capture advantages to SDs, not to

mention that 4 of them are the same size as 1 CF card.

 

Like it or not, science marches on.

[lucien1]

Marc,

 

AFAIK, the Kodak 14n use a CMOS and the Leica R Digital Back a CCD.

 

Lucien

[chip l.]

I am still in awe over the MicroDrives. I wonder if they can do the same in SD?

[watts]

Marc, the chip in the new Kodak SLR is actually produced by the

same Belgian outfit that provides the one in the 14n. According

to Rob Galbraith both the new and the old chip "eschews the

use of microlenses (which are employed by most other digital

SLR sensor manufacturers to improve a pixel's light-gathering

efficiency)" so I don't think this chip is the one that Leica are

hoping to use in the M digital. Also, as has already been pointed

out, the R back currently being developed uses a CCD chip, not

a CMOS like the Kodak SLR. All in all, I think the new Kodak

camera is a total red herring in as far as it offers clues about

Leica's present development of a digital R and M.

 

As far as the full frame argument goes, I believe that Leica have

already stated that the R body film gate (or whatever) makes a

full frame solution not possible (okay they said M digital wasn't

possible but the argument about the R seems sensible). I would

also doubt that they would be changing the spec of the chip this

far down the development line. As such, I would not expect the R

digital back to feature anything other then the promised 1.3x

CCD chip. This is probably just as well because the cost of full

frame sensors v. less than full frame makes the use of the

former an expensive proposition (compare the prices of the 1DS

versus the new 1D mk II). I expect the same for the M digital.

Even if a full frame is technically feasible, I would think that a 1.3x

sized chip would make more economic sense. Personally, I

would be happier to buy a 1.3x M digital (assuming it was half

decent) for around the cost of a 1D Mk II than having to spring for

the extra cost of the bigger chip and pay a '1DS style' price.

[fotografz]

The point wasn't about CMOS verses CCD. It was about what Kodak did to fix the full

frame 14n which according to this news release on Fred Miranda's site DOES use >>>>

microlens <<<< technology... the same technological notion mentioned by Leica as

making a digital M now possible:

 

"Kodak introduced it's improved successor for the DCS14n. The camera uses a new CMOS

sensor system in the same body as the predecessor.>>>> New microlenses,<<<<< a

new pixelshape and order, better noise handling, and an extended ISO range from an

industry low 6 ISO until 1600 ISO should bring this camera now to the top level of image

quality that a professional (studio) photographer demands. The camera still supports the

ERI-JPEG file format, next to JPG and DCS-RAW. Buffer size is now 512Mb enough for a

burst depth of 19 shots (max speed 1.7 fps).

 

Obviously, Leica wasn't touting non existent technology when they did their release of the

R digital plans. And in fact said they would be considering any developments in digital

technology as time went on in the development. So, it is conceivable that a full frame

sensor could be used... and given that the 14n is nowhere near the price of a 1Ds, one

should NOT assume such a full frame solution would be $8,000 like the far more complex

Canon 1Ds.

 

What is fascinating about Microdrives? The fact that if you slightly bump one you loose a

gig worth of photos as well as the expensive Microdrive?

[watts]

<i>Obviously, Leica wasn't touting non existent technology when

they did their release of the R digital plans. And in fact said they

would be considering any developments in digital technology as

time went on in the development. So, it is conceivable that a full

frame sensor could be used...</i><br><br>No I don't think it is

conceivable because the reason Leica gave for going with a 1.3x

chip was nothing to do with microlens technology but to do with

the physical contraints (related I believe to the film gate) of

shoehorning a digital back into the R8/9. It simply won't fit.

Besides, Leica have already sent out this month a PDF update

about the current state of development of the R digital back. This

would have been an ideal time to announce that they were going

with a full frame chip rather than the planned 1.3x one. They

didn't and I don't expect them to do so. <br><br><i>and given

that the 14n is nowhere near the price of a 1Ds, one should NOT

assume such a full frame solution would be $8,000 like the far

more complex Canon 1Ds.</i><br><br>Maybe not but that

wasn't really my point. My point is that for the foreseeable future,

all things being equal, a full frame digital camera will be more

expensive than the same camera body with a smaller chip. Body

design considerations aside, the larger chips are simply more

expensive to make/buy. I guess what I was saying is that given

that the Leica M digital is going to be expensive anyway, I would

rather settle for a 1.3x chipped M than pay a large premium for

the full frame.

[steve_chan5]

<i>LMAO! Plenty of amazing folks on this forum then.</i>

 

<p>I often find it amazing, but maybe I shouldn't: someone once mentioned to me that he thinks 95% of people are basically wired to be followers. Sometimes they follow religious leaders, sometimes political leaders - in this case, some people follow the Leica shepherd.

 

<p>In any case, I hope that Leica gets some variant of the sensor on the latest Kodak SLR. It looks like it is finally living up to it's promise. A 14MP full frame sensor is about all the megapixels you could reasonably use.