I need help

[scotshot]

I have been taking photographs for nearly 20 years most of that time

35mm, for the last two years i have been shooting MF. I would like to

make the move up to LF but i have no idea what camera i should buy. I

want to take landscapes in Scotland, summer/autumn 2004, i will need

time to get used to the camera. Something simple to start off with and

it would need to be used i have a buget of about $4000. your

suggestions please, camera/lens ect,and if you could tell me why.

Thanks in advance, Jim.

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi James.

Let me begin by saying that I'm not a pro, or expert, and I don't shoot much landscape. That being said, I think your budget is more than sufficient to buy a new camera and lens, unless you have something truly grand in mind. Most people who are moving up in format, do so without skipping a step, meaning that the first LF is 4x5. There are good arguments to be made for choosing a different Large Format, that involve the distinction between contact printing and enlarging, and the shapes of the various formats, the weight and bulk, cost and availability of film, etc., but unless you advise otherwise, I'll assume you intend to buy into the 4x5 format. I think that a field camera is a given, but which is open to debate, and a lot depends on your preferences. Here's a link to a good selection with descriptions and prices:

 

http://www.kspphoto.com/activepages/fieldcameras.html

 

Here's a link to a thorough discussion of lens choices:

 

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses4x5.html

 

If you shop carefully, or buy used, there should be enough in your budget to include a used 4x5 enlarger, if you don't already have one. Look here:

 

http://listings.ebay.com/aw/plistings/category29985/index.html?from=R11

 

Good luck, and welcome to the club!

[jim_galli4]

A Toyo 45-AX, Schneider 110XL, Fujinon 240 F9a, Minolta Spotmeter F, with the other necessary acoutrements is perfectly do-able in your stated budget and would be the beginnings of a great traveling kit.

[brian_kennedy]

Jim, I agree that a $4000 budget is more than enough to get a very nice LF system. Assuming you already have a sturdy tripod from your other cameras, you'll need to buy a camera; lens(es), lens board(s), and cable releases; film back and film; loupe (you might be able to use one you already have, if not, consider the Toyo 3.6x GG viewer for relatively little money); handheld meter (if you don't already have one); and a dark cloth. Take a look at QT Luong's page, starting with http://www.largeformatphotography.info/matos-begin.html.

 

Your first decision will be whether you want a monorail or a field camera. From your description, I suspect a solid field camera would be a good choice.

[john_cook1]

Assuming a 4x5 field camera for portability in the field as well as hand carrying on a commercial aircraft, the two cameras I would consider are the Toyo and Ebony models below.

 

Both are superb quality, but simpler and therefore hundreds cheaper than most equipment of similar status. The Toyo shaves off $600 by eliminating the rotating back. The Ebony has shorter bellows and fewer movements, stuff you don�t require for landscape. And half the cost of the next model up.

 

The Toyo being metal is much more rugged and will survive being dropped. The Ebony is much more beautiful and has greater movements. Do you want a Jeep or a Jag?

 

Toyo-View 45AX

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=135448&is=REG

 

Ebony RW45

 

http://www.badgergraphic.com/search_product2.asp?x=2182

 

I have used all of the following lenses at one time during my forty-year commercial career and recommend them highly. They are all very small and light, relatively inexpensive, and absolutely first-rate tack-sharp.

 

You need to pick one or two only. Unlike 35mm, it is not necessary to venture into the large format field with a suitcase full of lenses. Can�t explain why. It just isn�t. Think Rollei TLR = one lens only.

 

Can�t tell you how to shoot landscapes, but a wide lens like a 90mm isn�t necessarily a good idea. Tends to make those magnificent mountains shrink to little anthills on the far horizon, while emphasizing the massive parking area where you are shooting from. A 90 also requires a special recessed board (a nightmare for fat fingers) and a bag bellows (one more darn thing to carry).

 

The new Schneider 110mm lens is nice. But you can buy any three of these for the same money. Also note that several of these lenses all take the same size (52mm) filters.

 

Nikkor-W 135mm f5.6

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36884&is=USA

 

Nikkor-W 150mm f5.6

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36887&is=USA

 

Nikkor-W 180mm f5.6

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36897&is=USA

 

Nikkor-M 200mm f8

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36904&is=USA

 

Finally, I�d suggest looking at Bogen / Manfrotto tripods. Again, biggest selection and bang for the buck. A very light one will work if you don�t use the center column (they can get whippy). But beware of a light-weight tripod�s tendency to blow over in even a gentle wind.

 

Wish I was going with you!

[bob haight]

As to lenses, I would stay with a max of two and look to the the two 35mm format lenses you use most. A 90mm LF (4x5) is about a 28mm in 35mm and 150mm LF is standard. Seems to me the 90 and 240 make a great kit for most things.

[cxc]

Almost any LF camera will be adequate for typical landscape work; no particular reason to spend more than the $625 a nice, new Shen-Hao (wooden field camera) will cost you. Put the rest of the money into a couple new lenses, a 90mm and a 210mm. And a nice, sturdy, tall-enough tripod, Bogen or Gitzo. And stick with ReadyLoads/QuickLoads; especially as a beginner, and more especially travelling, spare yourself manually loaded filmholders.

 

After you have some experience, just what it is that you like/need in a camera will become clearer, and you can upgrade if necessary, the camera only.

 

If it is convenient, renting (or borrowing!) can give you a little hands-on experience, helping you decide whether you prefer a field (flatbed) or monorail, for example. My recommendation for a monorail is the Toho.

 

LF cameras are extremely simple, compared to today's 35mm cameras, and are now and always have been built to last. Therefore buying used is much less of a risk. Since you can afford it, I would stick with new for lenses, however.

 

Have fun,

 

CXC

[ken_lee11]

<i>"I would like to make the move up to LF but i have no idea what camera i should buy."</i>

 

<p>Let's say you were looking to get into 35mm: Given your budget, your choice would be based on what subjects you shoot, how you shoot, and how you like to transport your equipment in the field. Do you shoot birds ? children ? sports ? portraits ? underwater ? from a plane ? Then choose your equipment accordingly.

 

<p>The same holds true for Large Format: choose the camera to match <b>your</b> requirements. However, if LF is somethat new to you, you may not know enough about the various options to determine what your requirements actually are - so find those out before you buy.

 

<p>The term "Landscape" includes a variety of subjects. Do you intend to climb mountains, wade through water, etc... or do you intend to generally drive up to the scene and shoot ? Do you intend to shoot architectural subjects ? distant details or wide panaoramas ? Like shooting in cold weather, rain, high altitudes ? Like extreme closeups of flowers ? All of these things may help determine your choices in equipment.

 

<p>I hope to visit Scotland this year too :-)

[brian_ellis3]

I would suggest (1) a field camera rather than a monorail, could be metal or wood, both have their advantages (metal may be sturdier and more precise, wood is usually but not always less expensive and lighter) and (2) three lenses, one wide angle (75mm to 90mm), one medium length (135mm to 210mm depending on whether you tend to photograph a little wider than "normal" or a little longer than "normal" or just "normal")), and one long (300mm). I'd buy everything used, especially the lenses, but from a reputable seller that has a large selection of used large format equipment such as MidWest Photo Exchange (the best IMHO), Ken Mar Camera, Quality Camera, Lens and Repro, and KEH. Not from e bay, just because you're new and perhaps don't know what questions to ask. I personally no longer deal with The F Stops Here, a large format specialist, and B&H, which has a fair amount of used large format equipment, having had bad experiences with both.

 

Since you aren't on a tight budget, I'd suggest the best available modern lenses in the focal lengths I mentioned. The ones I own and could recommend are the 80mm Schneider Super Symmar XL, the 135mm Rodenstock APO Sironar S, the 150mm G Claron, the 210 Schneider APO Symmar, and the 300mm Nikon M. All of these lenses were purchased with a view to backpacking so they're very small and very light except for the 210 Apo Symmar. All have been around for a while and so they're plentiful on the used market except for the 80mm Schneider which is relatively new, not seen used too often, and very expensive new (around $1,400). You might substitute a 90mm Schneider Super Angulon for it. It's much larger and heavier than the 80mm Super Symmar but Super Angulons have been around for a long time, are excellent lenses, and are plentiful on the used market. You certainly don't need both the 135mm Rodenstock and the 150mm G Claron. I have both because I like to use the G Claron for close up work and it's so small and light that carrying it is no problem.

 

In no way am I suggesting that these are the best lenses available in their focal lengths, nor that these are the best focal lengths, just that these are common focal lengths and are excellent lenses that can be bought used for approximately $2000 (if you go with the 90mm Super Angulon rather than the 80mm Super Symmar), leaving you with roughly $2,000 for a camera. There are equally good or maybe better lenses in the same or similar focal lengths from other manufacturers. But these are the one I know because I own them. There are also older used lenses that many people think highly of such as Dagors but I've never owned them. If you want to spend a little less on the lens and more on the camera you also could eliminate either the the medium focal length or the long focal length to start with and just buy the wide angle and either a medium or long focal length, waiting until later to buy the third if you find that you need it.

 

Fortunately it's hard to go wrong with a modern lens from one of the four major manufacturers of large format lenses (Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji, and Nikon) so picking a particular lens from among these brands isn't something you need to lose any sleep over. Decide on the focal lengths and other things you want (wide maximum aperture, light weight, multi coating, cost, things like that) and then search for the best deal as among these four manufacturers. Fuji doesn't have a U.S. distributor so their lenses perhaps aren't as plentiful on the used market as the other three. If you really want to get into the subject of large format lenses read the articles that Kerry Thalman has written for "View Camera" magazine over the last year and a half or so about Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, and Fuji lenses. Also look at his web site.

 

With the very roughly $2,000 you would have available for a camera, and assuming you're buying used, you could get a Linhof Technika V (but only if you choose 90mm as your widest angle lens, they aren't very friendly to wider angles than that) and have about $500 left over, or the Wisner Technical Field and have about $500 left over, or the Ebony RW someone else mentioned and have little or nothing left over (you'd probably have to buy it new, there aren't many on the used market), or one of the Toyo or Canham models, or if you really wanted to go inexpensive but perfectly adequate for the type work you want to do a Tachihara (I'd buy it new rather than used because they have gradually improved over the years) for about $700 or the Shen Hao (also probably new because they haven't been around for long and aren't too plentiful used). The Tachihara is about 2 pounds lighter, the Shen Hao has more movements, take your pick. Either would be fine as a starter, and maybe a keeper, camera and you'd save a thousand or so over a more expensive cameras like the Linhof, Wisner, Canham, Ebony, et al.

 

You'll want to do some reading about cameras beyond just what people write here. Tuan's large format photography home page (www.largeformatphotography.info) has excellent reviews of many large format cameras writen by people who have owned them and that would be a good place to go. Leslie Stroebel's book "View Camera Techniqe" has a table in the back that lists all the various cameras and gives detailed specs for all of them. It's a very good source when you begin comparing features. Try not to get carried away with finding a camera that has every conceivable movement, you won't need most of them for landscape work anyhow and the more movements there are the more complex and expensive the camera tends to be. I think simplicity is important, especially for your first large format camera. Few things can ruin the pleasure of large format photography more than a fussy, fiddly, complicated camera that's a pain to set up and take down. Front rise, tilt, and swing, rear tilt and swing are perfectly adequate for almost all kinds of large format work, especially landscape.

[james___]

James, Toyo, Eboney, Walker, Horseman ect are all nice cameras. But cost a lot of money that can be spent on lenses and all of the other things you will need like film holders, light meter, darkcloth, bright screen if you need one (I don't and I'm an old fart) and all of the sundry items that go along with Large format. 90/f5.6 XL Super Angulon, 240/f9 Schnieder Apo Symar. All those wonderful lenses like the 110 Schnieder ect are wonderful too. But you don't need them. Just wishful thinking for those of us who can't afford these cameras anyway. Wista, Shen Hoa, Osaka field, Tachihara, Eastman Commercial View cameras are/were top of the line in their time and are still wonderful cameras for the money that a beginner can buy. And simple lenses like the Schnieder Angulon 90/f6.8, the newer Schnieder Super Angulon 90/f8 lenses are superb and don't cost an arm and a leg. A 210 apo-Sironar N goes for $475 or a 160mm/f6.3 Caltar (Rodenstock) this month at lensandrepro.com or check out midwest photo. They have 100's of good inexpensive (and expensive) lenses for sale. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you need new wonder gear to take great pictures. No one neede these awsome tectnical marvels in years past and they took wonderful images with simple equipment. Go to lanesandrepro.com, E-bay, midwestphoto.com and talk with them about what you want. You don't need to spend and arm and leg and your childrens college fund to make good images. Simple equipment is all over the place. You can find it everywhere these days.

[wayne_crider4]

If you haven't tried a LF camera before do yourself a favor and see if there is a

camera store around with a 4x5, or a friend or photo club with a member with

a 4x5 that will let you handle it. Most LF'ers will gladly show you the ropes but

ask them to help you and explain the setup and movements. Go thru the

entire process of using it from opening it, and after closing it when done hold it

in a bag in your hand for 10 minutes. Seriously, if there isn't one around, fly or

drive to a city where there is a large dealer and spend the day looking at and

playing with as many as possible. At the end of the day you should have a

much clearer view about choosing a camera. Make sure to buy a popular

model so that if you find your not using it very much you can sell it easily. You

shouldn't have to spend any where near $4k to do what you want. Let us

know where your at and if anyone is close by someone will probably offer to

show you the ropes. I'm in S. Florida myself.

[lenmetcalf]

Must say that I agree with Frank. Start as cheap as possible, and with only one lens. You will slowly work out what you prefer. It is a very personal preference. I have used over 8 different view / monorail cameras, and have worked out exactly what I personally like, from hard learned lessons and lots of dollars latter. You can't beat playing with one for real (as mentioned earlier)

 

If I had to buy new and was starting from scratch, I'd buy a Tachihara (for price and weight alone - or a graphic if you prefer metal and strength) and add a Schneider Symmar XL 110mm lens, a quickload back, and start. You might outgrow the tachihara, but you will have learn't alot from it, and you can upgrade once you are hooked...

 

You will love the lens, and most people who own one say it is their favorite. Small, light, large image circle, sharp etc. Nice landscape proportions. Other favorites are the Rodenstock Sinnor 135mm (s or n depending on weight needs) Be careful of weight, size, image circle of various lenes, each has its advantages, and with so many to choose from... You do have to decide what you want to use it for.

 

Me I can't go past having all movements in a camera, and operations that I can complete without getting out from under the dark cloth. I'll carry a heavy camera for stability, range of lenes it can use, and movements.

 

Save your money for you will want to expand as you grow and develop... They do take time to learn to use to thier full potential.

 

Regards,

[keith_merrill]

James, Take it from somebody who knows, there is no reason to spend 4000 bucks to get into largeformat, especially if you haven't shot any yet. I learned after spending quite a bunch of money that I can do everything I wanted to do with a Cambo 8x10 sc ($135.00 off ebay) and 2 lenses, one of which cost less than 50 bucks. I used to have a 110xl but never could get used to the focal length. Great lens though. Scour ebay and read posts on lenses and cameras, talk to some people if you can, go to galleries that have largeformat exhibits and find out what kind of gear the people you like are using. You might just find out that something larger, 8x10 or even 11x14, will fit your requirements better, or that you can't stand wooden field cameras - or metal monorails for that matter. I strongly suggest you cut your budget in at least half, or even a quarter, and buy an outfit with one lens, 8 film holders, darkcloth, meter, tripod, loupe, and shoot the rest of the money in film. I am really now finding out that, especially in largeformat, there are stunning deals in used equipment that can handle anything you can throw at it. I have a newton new-view camera that I bought for 40 bucks that does most of my 4x5 now, after owning an ebony RW45 for two years. I sold the ebony and set up a darkroom with the money. The newton has more movements, is as rigid, quite a bit heavier though, but still up to the task. If I were going to spend money on new, I would buy a modern lens and keep the used camera. Just my opinion.

[tim_atherton2]

Basically the same idea as Jim Galli and John Cook

 

Toyo 45AX, Ebony RW or - in addition, not yet mentioned I think - the Canham 45DLC

 

90-110 lens and something in the 240mm range is a good starter.

 

A CF gitzo (1325 say - you can use lighter, but they are tooo light!) and an acratech ball head is nice (if you can cope with a ball head for 4x5 - some love em some hate em and prefer a standard pan and tilt option)

 

"Can�t tell you how to shoot landscapes, but a wide lens like a 90mm isn�t necessarily a good idea. Tends to make those magnificent mountains shrink to little anthills on the far horizon, while emphasizing the massive parking area where you are shooting from. A 90 also requires a special recessed board (a nightmare for fat fingers) and a bag bellows (one more darn thing to carry)."

 

No need for a recessed board or bag bellows on at least two of the three above (not sure about the Ebony). And if you are looking for a 90mm - forget that funny German stuff and get a Nikkor 90mm f8 :-)

 

Although he can sometimes go overboard on the ultrtralight stuff (I think his standard outfit weighs less than my Leica M...), Kerry Thalman has some great info on lenses and other stuff - especially his "future classics"

 

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/

 

as well as all the stuff on the LF site

 

 

And if you are going to shoot mainly colour you don't really need the spotmeter.

 

If you are fairly committed to trying 4x5, it's more of a waste of time to buy some old clunker or a graphic - they may be fun to fiddle with but they will either be heavy, wobbly or frustratingly limiting very quickly - you'll find yourself selling it on ebay and looking for something more sturdy or verstile... Start off with a semi decent camera in good shape.

[scotshot]

Well i am amazed at how helpfull people are on here. Thanks for all the info. Here is a little about me, i've used Minolta X300 and Canon Eos in 35mm gear for about 17 years and then i bought a Mamiya c330 with 80mm and 135mm lens. I have a good tripod Velbon 600n and i also have a light meter Sekonic 308bII. No spot meter. I'm based in Germany but i am a Scotsman, this trip will be my first time home in about 9 years. After reading some of the posts (i WILL read them all) I think i might buy used and spend the rest on film and other stuff i'll need. When i do decide i will post again and let you all know what i bought, and how i'm doing. Thanks again. Regards, Jim.

[edward_kimball]

I suggest going into a shop where you can actually touch both a field camera and a monorail. I find the controls on my monorail are much easier on my large hands. My camera - CC400 - is a beast for carrying around but there are several much more compact monorail cameras out there. Maybe someone else can comment on the Sinar F1. It can be had used in excellent condition for about $800. The Arca-Swiss 4x5 F-Line Metric Camera looks like a heck of a piece of equipment but I don't know if you can find one used and new it would eat up most of your budget. If you like the perspective of your Mamiya lenses then a 150mm and a 240mm will do you well. For price and size you can't beat the Fujinon 240A. For a 150mm any of the major manufacturers make good choices. I am partial to Rodenstock.

[gnps]

Just give you my experience;

I shot with 35mm 24 years before having a go at MF with the Fuji GSW690. A year later after lots of research (especially in these very pages and talking to Matt at Robert White) I bought into LF. I went for the Ebony RSW as my love is landscapes, especially mountainous ones, and portability is very important. I started with a 90/8 lens but eventually became frustrated with how dark it was so traded it. My lens set which I have now settled on is 80XL/4.5, 150/5.6 APO-Symmar and 270/5.5 Tele-Arton (all Schneider). I have carried camera, two lenses, 5 holders, meter, tripod and walking gear up (and down again) a 5000ft mountain on a hot day. Heavy but do-able.

The Ebony is beautiful to look at and a dream to use. Being a non-folder setup time is very quick too. Can't comment on any others since I've never used any other LF camera - but I'm more than happy with my choice.

[stevenbarall]

4 grand is a lot of money. Yee Ha. Do yourself a big favor and go to: badgergraphic.com Check out what they have to offer and call them and talk to them. As far as lenses go, I am a firm believer in used lenses but you have to become an expert pretty quickly and I'm not sure you will have the time. The more expensive lenses are faster and let you have more movement but alot of lenses are sharp. You will find that everyone has a lens that they think is the best lens ever made.

 

And get a wooden tripod. The wood doesn't transmit vibrations and it won't make your hands freeze in the cold weather. And get a good head that will hold weight. Bogen makes nice ones and so does Reiss, the wooden tripod company. Bogen has a large head that has geared movements as well as gross movements. It's great for 4X5.

 

I use the cheapest wood folding 4X5 that I was able to find when I was in grad school and that was 14 years ago. It might have been undergrad actually. It works fine and I am a camera movement fanatic. You don't need an Ebony. Look at the Shen Hao at badgergraphic.

 

Have a great trip. Oh yeah, spend the four thousand on digital equipment.