ready to jump into MF, buying help please...

[dave_goldenberg]

I am ready and anxious to try out MF and have done a lot of research

here that has been very helpful. I am thinking I will start with a

Minolta Autocord or Yashica 124G. While I would love the

interchangable lenses of the Mayima 220/330 I can't justify the cost

at this time, could always sell what I get and upgrade later.

 

This leads me to a few questions:

 

What are the important questions to have answered by an Ebay seller.

I'm wary of the as is policys and want to be able to ask specific

questions to increase my chances of getting a camera in better

condition.

 

Also am I better off spending a little more (how much for the

mentioned cameras?) at a used camera shop and elimanating much of the

risk. (I live in NYC so I would guess I have a lot of choices of

shops)

 

What accesories will I need/want? I shoot mostly B&W, particularly

travel subjects, landsapes and urban still lifes. will I be able to

get filters for these cameras? Do they "need" them the same as my

35mm system?

 

Finally, what are the model variances between these lines mentioned.

I get confused by the seemingly endless variations on the models as

they are listed. (I am interested in Rolliecord and Rollieflex also,

but can't get a sound idea of which ones are "good" (better?) within

the price range of the Minolta and Yashica. There seem to be so many

different ones.

 

Thanks very much for any and all advice on this matter. Any other

thoughts that might help would be appreciated as well.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave Goldenberg

 

p.s. one more question. Are the models with interchangable backs

able to be changed mid roll? Could I shoot 3 B&W, pop off the back

and put on a color back, shoot a few and switch back? Which models

offer this? That would be ideal for me. Would it require a major

cost upgrade?

Thanks

[joffre_swait]

Dave,

 

The route you're considering into MF is one I took. In the past seven months I have purchased several MF folders (voigtlander perkeo I - 6x6, ensign selfix 820 - 6x6 and 6x9) and a TLR (Rolleicord III). To tackle some of your questions:

1) Both folders were purchased on EBay, one was a great experience and another was not. Basically, my advice is that you stick to buying from camera shops and high volume dealers that are selling on EBay, they've got something to lose if things go wrong. The TLR was purchased from an individual through photo.net classifieds, that went OK, but might not have. If you're risk averse, your best bet is to work the camera shops in New York; you're likely to pay more, but you'll know what you're getting up front.

2) These older cameras, even the TLR's, don't have interchangeable backs. Some of them, including the Yashica 124, allow you to use 120 and 220 film, but you've got to run through the entire roll before a change can be made.

3) Research the kinds of cameras you're thinking of buying, paying particular attention to the shutter and lens combinations. Particularly with folders, there's a bewildering plethora of shutter/lens models that were sold, some of them good, some of them poor, all under the same brand. There are many online resources available to help you out, so you're not alone.

4) EBay, regular and online camera stores are good sources for filters, which you should use just like you do in 35 mm.

5) I like both the folders and the TLR, but the latter has the distinct advantage of having visible focusing, whereas most folders don't have rangefinders and require estimating distances. That initially sounds worse than it actually is in practice, but it's something to think about.

6) Good 6x6 cameras to look for (less than about $300):

TLRs: Rolleicord (III, IV and V), Minolta Autocord, Yashica, Mamiya

Folders: Voigtlander Perkeo I and II, Zeiss Ikonta (many models)

7) None of these have interchangeable lenses except the Mamiya. On the other hand, I have not found this to be particularly limiting. Think about all the great photographs taken before lens interchangeability! Given the type of photography you do (travel subjects, landscapes, urban scenes), any of these would likely be suitable.

 

I have been very satisfied with my incursion into MF via this avenue, my photographs have turned out very well technically.

 

Good luck, and if you need any specific advice, please contact via swaitjd@bellsouth.net .

[jerry_lehrer]

Dave

 

To get interchangeable backs for mid-roll switching, brings you into

a range TEN times greater than you planned to spend on a Yashica or

Minolta. I'm talking 'bout Rolleiflex 6008 or Hasselblads.

 

BTW, the Voightlander Perkeo is the smallest 6x6cm camera that I have

ever used.

 

Jerry

[dave_goldenberg]

looks like the interchangable backs are out of the question...for now

 

at least there was an easy answer for them...

[pok_hon_wally_yu]

I purchased my YashicaMat 124G at ebay from an individual seller. It works fine. Some questions you may want to ask the seller include the overall shape, the cleaniness of the lenses, smoothness of film winding, accuracy of shutter speeds, the condition and accuracy of the meter, etc.

 

YashicaMat 124G takes Bay I accessories. You can get a Bay I hood at Porters for about 15 dollars. Bay I filters can be difficult to find and can be expensive. However, you may want to get a Bay I to 49mm/52mm filter adapter (also available at Porters for about 15 dollars) so that you can use regular screw mount filters.

 

Even if you get one from a used dealer, you may still need a CLA, and it costs about $150. Mark Hama does an excellent job on servicing Yashica TLRs (I believe he also services Minolta TLRs, but not sure.)

 

Concerning interchangable backs, none of these TLRs offer interchangable backs. If you absolutely need this and do not want to jump into the new market, you may need to consider old 6x7 rangefinders, such as Mamiya Press/Universal or Graflex XL.

 

As I remember, KEH catalog lists a YashicaMat 124G in EX condition for about $350 (!?)... Recent ebay final bid prices of this camera is also around this range or lower. Anyway, have a clear mind how much you want to spend in the auction.

[roger_michel]

dave -- if you are new to MF, and eager to get started, DON'T LET YOUR ENTHUSIASM BE DAMPENED BY AN INITIAL BAD EXPERIENCE!! to avoid, this, don't (a) buy a folder. i love folders. i have six or seven. i use my bessa ii/heliar all the time. BUT, it took me years to find one that worked perfectly (or close to it). all folders (zeiss less so than voigt) are plagued by parallelism/wiggle probs. the film plane is seldom where it should be. the RF is often off. the bottom line is that there is a lot to go wrong with a folder, and you may never get the sharp images you expect from MF. avoid folders until later on. (b) don't get a camera from ebay. where leaf shutters are involved, condition is important. spend a few extra bucks and buy from a dealer. i recommend ken hansen in nyc. they have lots of 'cords and 'flexes. which leads me to © get a rolleicord for a few dollars more than a yashicamat. i just loaded my yashica to take with me camping this weekend. it's a great camera. BUT, on average, you are more likely to get a good rolleicord than a good yashica. the rolleis were better built initially, and have held up better over the years (again, on average). in time you may fall in love with a yashica (or an ikoflex, or a kalloflex, or an autocord), but play it safe on your first go 'round. a rolleicord will NOT disappoint. finally, don't even consider a 'blad. in the price range you are looking, you would have to settle for a real beater. beat blads can be bad news. and i would never (as EVERYBODY knows by now) recommend a blad as a gen'l purpose walkabout camera -- if that's all you want it for. there are lots of mf cameras specifically designed for that (like the rolleicord). you are embarking on a fun adventure. composing in the groundglass of a tlr is an amazing experience. you will start to think about composition in a whole new way. take your time, and you will be rewarded. p.s. two practical tips. learn to fire the shutter very gently and gradually. a lot of shake can be induced by a rough release. also, with any older lens -- even if single coated, USE A SHADE!!!!!! flare can be a problem even in indirect lite. long before it appears as streaks on your negs, it will rob sharpness (microcontrast/edge acutance) and contrast (macro contrast). and with mono film keep a yellow filter on all the time. good luck (: AND ONE LAST THING. blad, yashicamat, folder lovers, please don't scream. i wasn't dissing your babies. i was just trying to give a newbie the best possible chance of getting off to a great start in mf!!

[andrew_schank]

e-bay buying tips for older medium format cameras: Don't rely on just what is stated in the item description. Email the seller and ask for more specific info,for old folders: "could you please check the lens with a flashlight for fog, fungus, cleaning marks". or " Have you checked the bellows for light leaks?" "Do all the speeds work correctly?" On TLR's, "is the focus screen scratched up", "have you run a roll of film through to check the transport is working and not overlapping / skipping frames" I find these types of questions draw out faults in the camera that maybe the seller doesn't even know about or that they were hoping you won't notice. Last time I asked theses questions about a "near mint" camera on e-bay, I found out the lens was uncoated (to my surprise) the slower speeds hung up, and the bellows had pin holes in them.

 

If you want to shoot both color and B&W together, pick up two Yahicas,Minoltas, or Rolleicord V's and load them up that way. A nice Autocord, Rolleicord V or Yashicamat sells for less than a back for most 2 1/4 SLR's. Be aware any camera 20 to 45 years old will likely need a servicing before being put into duty.

[kevin_kolosky]

Dave

Do yourself a big favor and find a way to finance the camera and buy a good used Hasselblad 500 cm with a good used 80mm lens and one good a12 back. you will be money and misery ahead in the long run.

 

Kevin

[roger_michel]

do yourself a favor and don't. buy a cord, a shade, a filter or two and TONS of TRI-X and PAN F.

[roger_michel]

kevin, i hope you will respond cordially. could you please expand on your comment to explain to dave why you think an investment in a hasselblad is the correct move. i don't think your admonition will be helpful without an explanation.

[s_mccutcheon]

Dave, for info on the different models try the following pages:

 

http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/index.html

 

http://free.freespeech.org/coreya/yashica/moreyash.html

 

I found them to be very useful. As for buying on eBay, there is always a risk. I personally won't buy from anyone who won't take PayPal. Check their feedback. Try to buy from someone who guarantees the camera's function. Make sure that it is ensured when delivered so they won't claim it was damaged in transit and stiff you on any returns. If you think it is worth the risk you should be able to find a Yachica Mat EM, LM, 124 or 124G for anywhere from $65 for the EM & LM models to $200 for the 124G. It may be worth it to pay $50-100 more to buy from a reputable store where you get some sort of warranty. If you buy something with a sticking or slow shutter or other problems you may end up spending even more after paying for a CLA than you would have had you gone to a dealer first. Take care and have fun.

[mediumformat]

You can't beat the value/performance ratio of TLRs, and there are many excellent ones (Rollei, Mamiya, Minolta Autocord, Yashicamat, etc.). Try to handle some in a shop so you get feel for them, because they all have their own unique feel and quirks.

 

You will not be dissatisfied with the quality of the results, as any of the cameras mentioned above will produce large prints/slides that will blow away nearly any 35mm outfit. You may fall in love with the square image, as many people have. And once you get used to using a waist level finder, you will never want to peer through a tiny viewfinder again.

 

There are good dealers on ebay, but I think you're better off buying from a reputable store. My local store has 14 day, no questions asked return policy. You can't beat that. Good luck and enjoy.

[brit]

Various points scattered about.

 

DYOR and then set a price. I'm amazed at the prices some items go for. Currently on ebay.co.uk there is a 124G no reserve starting at £120. Dealers over here sell sell 124G's for £150ish. Are ppl so stupid they want to be hailed the 'winner' because they spent the most? LOL!

 

Look at what the ad description is NOT saying.

 

Don't assume the seller knows what they are talking about. I saw a 124G advertised but the pic was an older YashiMat not a 124G.

 

My own and a friend's experiences of 124G's (three between us) have been: great optics but terrible shutter problems. OK for snaps but not for precise angling/framing, dof preview, close work, visualising filter effects (specifically grads).

 

Now I've worked all that ^ out of my head I suppose my key advice would be to DYOR and chose the camera you want at your budget and buy personally from a dealer. Any problems with the camera and you can have it repaired, replaced or money back depending on your original deal. You may even find the 'problem' is a design feature of the camera - the shop staff will show you how to use that particular area of the camera. All this backup service is lost to ebay and important I feel for a newcomer.

 

Think about future proofing the system you're considering, and how much you could resell the item once you have outgrown it if applicable. I dearly wanted a Bronica 6x6 but could not run to the cost of the camera and its accessories. I settled for a V.V.G condition Mamiya 645 with 2 years guarantee for a total of £240ish from Jessops, bought in person, after I'd inspected it and had its functions explained to me. Well over 1 yrs gtee left. Or bid on ebay and expect to pay more for speculative bargain?

 

Good luck Dave.

 

Bri

[john_sonewald]

You can get a lot of mileage out of the cameras you are considering. Hasselblads are extremely fine instruments, but not required to decide if MF and you are a good match. I admit to having a Hasselblad, but it's the third MF camera I've owned, and the fourth I've used.

 

As far as where to buy - if at all possible find a shop that has used cameras. Chances are their prices will be close to or less than prices for the same model in eBay. You have the significant advantage of seeing it first hand before you pay, and probably getting a 30-90 day warranty. You might also try renting one for a weekend.

[audidudi]

Well, if your heart is set on a TLR that allows you to swap backs and lenses, I believe your only choice will be a 6x7 Omegaflex. It's big and bulky and fairly rare but they do turn up every now and then, and usually for not a lot of money. I almost bought one a year or so ago until I realized that I'd only end up cropping the 6x7 negs back into 6x6s given my preference for shooting square...

 

That said, I'd recommend starting with a Minolta Autocord. They're a great camera for the money and a very good camera regardless of price ... the only problem is that even the very newest of them is at least 35 years old now and you need to understand that any one you buy is likely to need a CLA sooner or later.

 

Also, understand that for the right (wrong?) person, your first taste of MF can prove highly addictive. It wasn't but a few months after I bought my first Autocord that I had assembled a 3-lens Bronica outfit and a MF view camera with three backs and three lenses as well. I've since come full circle and sold all the Bronica stuff -- it could not compete with the Autocord on a bang-for-the-buck basis, despite being an excellent performer overall -- and the view camera is heading that way as well since I haven't yet found any lens, at any price, that is a match for aesthetic quality of the Autocord's single-coated Rokkor.

 

Anyway, food for thought ... good luck!

[bob_chong]

Another good Yashica resource:

http://www.williamsphotographic.com/ocr/mf/yashica.html

 

I agree that you should pay the couple extra dollars and buy from a store (e.g., Cameratradersltd.com lists a bunch of 124G's for under $300, in the used assorted med. format section). That way, if there's a problem, you can return it hassle free.

 

But if you insist on buying from eBay, make sure that you describe in detail how you want the camera inspected (e.g., "Is the shooting lens completely free of haze and fungus? If you don't know how to check this, open up the camera, set the shutter to B, cock the shutter, and then press and hold the shutter release button: while holding

down the shutter release, look through the shooting lens towards a light and it should be crystal clear..." etc.)

 

And get a satisfaction guarantee before bidding.

 

BC

[kevin_kolosky]

Mr. Michael.

I will attempt to be cordial. I have been buying and selling and using cameras for a long time. I have owned Mamiya twin lens, yashica mat, mamiya press, Graflex, mamiya RB, and 7 or 8 different hasselblads, or which the latest is a 503 cw. I have found that one always seems to pay more for a camera than it is worth, and always get less for it than one hoped for. Especially if you are working with dealers. don't get me wrong, a dealer has to make money to stay in business and so deserves a fair profit. But as I say, in the long run one would be better off to pick a system camera and add accessories. Since I have owned and used Hasselblad for almost 30 years, I can vouch for their quality. They have problems like any other camera. But they tend to hold their value, there is alot places that repair them all over the world, the range of accesories is staggering, the quality of their lenses is unsurpassed, they are faily easy to use, you can rent accessories if need be,and people know what they are in case you need to sell one. So, I think that it may be better to find a way to borrow some money now to buy the start of a system, and then add to it as you grow, rather than to buy a camera that doesn't have everything that you want, use it for awhile, lose some money on it, buy another, and on and on into the night until one day it dawns on you that gee maybe I should have listed to that guy 10 years ago that said buy the hasselblad and get on with it.

 

Kevin

[mike_mccollough]

I can only speak to the eBay part of your posting. As mentioed in an earlier post, buy from the reputable folks. I would send the seller an emmail questioning the quality (cosmetic and functional) of the equipment, and what the return policy is. If you do not get a response, that is a clue. Although most folks are honest, their impression of 'mint' or 'excellent plus' can vary from yours. eBay puncuates the phrase "buyer beware". After a couple less than successful purchases on eBay, I decided that Robert White or B&H are my suppliers of choice.

[john_bellenis]

In response the predictable, but misguided, comments about just going ahead and buying a Hasselblad I would like to add my experiences.

 

Om leaving college (4 years photography) I followed this advice taking large loans and investing heavily in Sinar and Hasselblad (I already had large amounts of Nikon equipment). This was in 1980. I used my Hasselblads for all of my Medium Foprmat work for the next 12 years at which point I had 3 500CMS, 6 lenses, 2 Polaroid backs, 5 120 roll film holders (2 being 6x4.5 mags), 2 220 roll film holders and the usual prisms, waistlevel finders, extension tubes etc.

 

In 1992 after using the system daily for work ranging from studio product, fashion, lifestyle, portrait and some interiors I had to face the fact that I HATED the whole system. It was undoubtedly holding me back, limited for my uses and a royal pain in the ass! I traded the lot in 1992 and switched to the Mamiya RZ system which has been a dream to use every since and has changed for the better my whole relationship with Medium Format.

 

My issues were as follows... The 6x6 format was always cropped to 6x4.5 wasting film and potential film area, also you end up with a smaller format. With a 6x4.5 mag and ANY finder it's impossible to shoot verticals so just switching backs doesn't answer that issue. The 1 sec maximum expose was very limiting - you can't reliably count "mississippi" on a 2 or 4 second exposure with any consistency. There was no multiple exposure provision without removing the mag, winding on, replacing the mag etc. Try not moving the camera with all that nonsense! The mirror cut off with lenses over 150mm was unforgivable in a camera of this price. The need to remove the mag to remove the prism was irritating if you like to put a level on the ground glass. The filter sizes were all over the place - expensive and bulky. The lack of a slot to receive the dark slide when not in use seems petty until you lose one! The endless jams - although easily fixed - are irritating and scare assistants.

 

I followed the conventional wisdom of the time (this "wisdom" is apparently still being bandied about) and paid the price for it. I love my Sinar and have greatly added to that system, but to recommend systems unreservedly is irresponsible. Wit cameras, as with cars, one brand does not fit all needs. I would recommend buying what you can afford, seeing if it fits your needs and renting other systems to find out the perfect fit for you.

[joseph_albert]

I would recommend a Minolta Autocord or Rolleicord over a Yashica

TLR.

<p>

However, all of the above use Bay I filters, which are much more expensive

than regular 46mm or 49mm filters, which fit Mamiya TLR lenses.

<p>

by the time you acquire a reasonable set of filters, a Mamiya C220

or C220F and 80/2.8 will be cheaper than the above cameras, and

you'll get interchangeable lenses and a camera fully supported with

repairs (as are Rollei's). If you buy new filters, plan on $40 each for Bay 1, except polarizers-- those will be $100 or more.

Filters wear out over time and should be replaced every 6-8 years, so used Bay I filters are not an attractive option.<p>

If you want the smaller, lighter weight package of the Minolta or Rolleicord,

that would be a good reason to go with that, but if you are looking

for a camera to try out MF, I think a C220 or C220F or the original

Mamiya 645 or 645-1000s are the best choices.

[erol_a.]

just weighing in on the cheap TLR vs pricey SLR issue...

 

get the TLR. They are a great way to get into MF, figure out what you like in a MF camera and format, and even if you later (as I did) upgrade to an overpriced SLR, you've still got a funky old camera that's a great kick to use and can produce a really nice image. My old Yashica 635 and Zeiss 6x9 Ikon folder aren't as easy to use as my Contax 645 nor as "functional", but they sure are a hell of a lot of fun to use.

[kevin_kolosky]

I cannot totally disagree with what John had to say. it is true that the hasselblad is basically a 6.45 camera. But I disagree with what was said about shooting verticals, and a few other things. It all depends on what you are going to use your system camera for. I happen to have used the 7 or 8 I have had for portraits and for weddings. For portraits in a studio I would agree that a RZ 67 would be a better way to go. Or maybe a 6.45 camera to get a few more shots per role. But take either of those two cameras on a wedding and you will have alot of fun turning them constantly or turning the back on the RZ, whereas with the square format you don't turn for a verticle or a horizontal. You just shoot it within that format on the square without turning the camera. In addition, I don't know of any other medium format cameras except perhaps the new Rollie cameras that offer longer exposures than 1 second through the shutter. There is slight mirror cutoff with longer lenses. It has been corrected with the new 503CW that I use. But then, there are, as you have noted, tradeoffs with every camera that you purchase. With the twin lens you will have to worry about parralax all of the time. I would rather worry about a little cutoff if I know what the cutoff is. In my mind it is an asset to be able to remove a magazine in mid roll to put on a different one if I want to be able to use a different type of film rather than to have to use up the whole roll before I can change film. And I can truthfully say that in 30 years of using Hasselblad cameras I have only had 4 jams. that is becasue I realize that cameras are like cars and other types of mechanical devices. they need periodic maintenance and lubrication and testing, which I have given them, while most people try to get by without such service.

Next time you go out to buy a used car, if you do buy used cars, you will want to know whether the oil was changed. Same with cameras. You want to know their service records. Adn finally, as I have commented on many times on this forum, as have other people, if you put the camera on a tripod, and tighten it down, you can get very reliable double exposures. And I ask, how much double exposure work are you going to do anyway. Not a whole lot.

Again, get what you really want. But at least take a serious look at a system camera before you go ahead and buy that yashicamat (a good camera I had two but very limited). I am betting that in the long run you will enjoy the versitility that a hasselblad gives you. That is why they have been in business so long, as compared to how many still make twin lens cameras????????

Kevin

[martino]

Dave,

 

Andrew and Jeffrey are quite right. A Rolleicord, yAutocord or Yashicamat perhaps even a Ricoh Diacord are fine for staring out.

A friend of mine got a Rolleicord V lastweek and was very happy.

TLRs are fun and perform well. The Rolleicord V is the best deal

for the money. You can likely get one for $100-125 on eBay. Apart

from this Andrews advice is solid and you should see this photo

by Jeffrey Goggin ...

http://cgi.linkclub.or.jp/~dmakos/imgsquare/index.cgi?read=1948

... to get an idea what an Autocord is capable of.

[audidudi]

<P>As a follow-up to Kevin's comments, the Bronica SQ-Ai can do 16-second exposures. I found this handy for early morning landscape work back when I had mine.</P>

 

<P>As for Martin's comments, his Rolleis are no slouch, either. Someday, I'll no doubt own one myself but for now, I am quite pleased with the Autocord's performance and especially its value. The curious can see more of my Autocord photos <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder.tcl?folder_id=140389">here</a>.</P>

[john_bellenis]

A quick(ish) reply to Kevin's well reasoned, considered and intelligent response...

 

Yes, it's easy to shoot 6x4.5 verticals if you're cropping them out of a 6x6. My point was that with a 6x4.5 magazine it's virtually impossible to shoot verticals with any finder you choose to put on the camera.

 

How often does one shoot multiple exposures? I frequently do, and that was the problem. Mixed lighting scenarios often require double exposures with different filter sets for various different light sources. The time factor of removing and replacing mag is beyond a drag and experience has shown that even with a rock solid tripod, movement is inevitable on a few frames.

 

What MF cameras have longer than 1 sec exposures through the shutter? Well the RZ does and that was one of the prime motivators for my switch. I use 2, 4 and 8 second exposures almost every day and find it hard to understand how I managed for 12 years without that option. (In truth I didn't manage very well and that added to my frustration).

 

I don't shoot weddings, but I do shoot fashion and lifestyle. The time taken to rotate the back from horizontal to vertical and back is less than 1/2 a second, very easy and intuitive to do and I can't see how this would be a drag or slow someone down.

 

Re. the jams.... 4 times in 30 years is an amazing record! My jams were constant and it wasn't from lack of CLAs, as I maintain my equipment immaculately. The jams were usually caused by assisants rushing (as they are wont to do!) - taking lenses and tubes off in the wrong order, taking lenses off at the wrong time, and generally being clumsy cack handed oafs! Easily fixed as I said, but irritating.

On that subject, when you have two assistants loading film quickly on a big shoot, the inserts and mags WILL get mixed up and I had some horrific overlap issues from mismatched inserts and magazines. This was a crazy problem and can only be caused by poor tolerance and machining problems, putting the onus on the consumer to work around it.

 

I know the mirror cut off problems were fixed on later models, but I had 3 500CMs and as I shot a lot with long lenses it was very irritating.

 

Basically, I'm saying that FOT MY WORK AND STYLE OF WORKING the Hasselblads became a nightmare (and I did give them a continual 12 year trial period)! I have plenty of photographer friends who love them to death and for whom they are the perfect answer. I bit the bullet and traded the lot and have never been happier. My point was simply to say, that it's presumptious to assume that because you like the system and that it works for you, that it is then OK to unreservedly recommend it as the "best" system for everybody - particularly at the outrageous prices they are asking for their equipment.