Terribly redundant question...

[chris_buchman]

Ok I'm about to ask probably the most asked question in this

forum...are you ready? WHICH CAMERA DO I BUY?

 

I'm settled on 6x6, I love the square format. I want a metered

eyelevel or 45 degree prism finder, interchangable backs, and of

course lenses. I definitely want to buy NEW at least for a starter

kit, and am not concerned with resale value. I will be doing mostly

handheld work. Basically I have narrowed it down to the Bronica SQ-AI

and the Hasselblad 501cm. If anyone has any suggestions for another

6x6 camera I should consider (besides the Kiev) let me know.

 

Should I suck it up and buy into the hasselblad system where I won't

be able to afford a new second lens for years? It seems like even the

used lenses are outrageously priced unless tehy're 30 years old? Are

these lenses up to modern standards, or is that just defeating the

whole purpose to having a hassy? Or should I go with the sq-ai, which

is a lot cheaper, and for which there are a lot less used accessories

and lenses?

 

I haven't had a chance to rent, but the hasselblad seems like it would

be better for handholding, with both the aperture and shtuter control

on teh lens, where as the bronica's left side shutter dial seems like

it would be cumbersome...am i wrong? And finally, anyone have

experience usign those kiev metered prisms on their hasselblads? Is

this a bad idea?

 

Basically what I want is a Mamiya pro-TL in 6x6 format. Too bad so

sad. Thank you so much for any feeback.

--Chris

[kevin_kolosky]

Chris

As a hasselblad user for most of the past 30 years I can heartily recommend Hasselblad. In addition, I am going to recommend that you SHOP for your equipment. Rome wasn't built in a day and you will not put together a good system in a day. But if you take your time you will be able to buy a good USED system that will allow you to have more than one lens, and more than one back. I suggest the following as a goal. Hasselblad 501 CM body or 503 cx body. 80mm cf, 150 cf, and either 50 or 60 cf., two backs and a pme prism. Buy what you can at first and every once in awhile add to it.

Bronica makes a great product. I have not used them, but know many who do. One thing. They are battery dependent. Hasselblad is not.

Hasselblad lenses. Probably the best,although Mamiya makes some great lenses too if you look at the charts. One final thing. Make sure that whatever you buy you buy to try. I.e. if something is wrong they take it back. Good luck kevin

[edward_s_carmick]

Chris

The best is Rollei, the features you would pay extra for in the Hasselblad are built into the Rollei. These are modern features. You have a better choice of lenses with the best of Zeiss and Schneider. For close-up photography Rollei wins hands down.

Granted, there are fewer of these to go look at and it gets fixed in New Jersey. Good prices on these are available especially from overseas and used lenses are always available on E-Bay.

Ed Carmick

[wayne_crider3]

Chris, I think in asking for a suggestion, which everyone will have an opinion about, and gladly give, the most important information for you to give us, and not in order is:

 

My photographic goal; My budget, now and for the future; My favorite subject(s); My favorite focal length lenses in another format; Accessory equipment I may need, and what I have now.

 

I think you will be able to get alot more specific info as to what will help you to accomplish your photographic goal(s). As an example, if you were to say that you wanted to shoot weddings with some side landscape work, had only done weddings once before, and you only had a Nikon speedlight, and had a budget of $2000 now and were able to spend $1000 each additional year, you might get some very helpful specific advice to help accomplish your goal. But asking what camera system I should buy, won't necessairly help you. Remember, medium format is not an inexpensive camera system, and you can spend alot of money real fast. In addition, I have found that buying all the accessory equipment to accomplish my goal, put a rather large dent in my pocket that I was unprepared for. Now if you have deep pockets, and money is no object, fine, get the best and be happy, if that's what will satisfy you, but be prepared to discover that maybe wedding work is not for you. In other words, have a goal, work towards achieving it sensibly, and get suggestions as to what specific equipment there is that has been found to be good within you price range that will help you to accomplish your goal. Later you can upgrade if necessary.

[andreas_carl]

Yes Chris, go for Hasselblad, it's a "time-tested" system, and it is easy to rent lenses. Don't underestimate the value of resale-value! I bought a CF150 in 1989, and when the new CF180 cam out a few years ago, I sold the CF150 for more than what I had paid for new!

 

Also, there is lots of used equipment in perfect condition out there! I bought my first camera kit new from B&H, but every other lens or back I got used from www.keh.com - if you look into my camera back, you would not be able to tell which where bought used and which were bought new!

[jkantor]

Bronica if budget comes first. Hasselblad, if you stick with their low-end cameras. (The high-end ones are absurdly overpriced.) And Rollei if you want the Zeiss/Schneider lenses as well as the latest technology at a realistic price.

[bill_henick]

Chris,

You won't go wrong with the Hasselblad. I bought the Rollei, and would not trade it for a 'blad. It is very user friendly, and does have many features that you would pay considerably more in the Hasselblad system. I've never seen lower prices for a 6008i- check B&H or Adoroma. Good luck to you. Bill Henick

[bradley hanson]

Chris-

 

I love square format also, which is the most important decision when narrowing your choices. Frankly, if you are used to 35mm, all square options are expensive. Everyone is going to have a bias/preference based on what they've used. It's easy for me to recommend Hasselblad, as I have two 501CMs and a few lenses. They are very simple cameras that don't need batteries or even an instruction manual. If you are accustomed to knowing ambient exposure settings (or taking them with an incident meter), a fully mechanical camera like the Hasselblad 500 series is going to be your least expensive option, although I'm not familiar with Bronica prices. I can't stand the waist-level finder, so I took advantage of Hasselblad's free PM45 (prism finder) rebate. Rollei and Bronica offer similar prisms. Any of these cameras is going to give you great images. I chose Hasselblad for a variety of reasons, but I love Zeiss lenses, and like the fact that I can mix and match components from the last 40 years, the fact that I can rent a lens or body in any major city in the country, and the solid and balanced feeling of the body. I chose to buy the newest generation of lenses, but you can find good deals on CF T* lenses, and the 50, 80 and 150 is a great trio to start with. You'd be amazed what you can do with just the 80mm lens!

 

Ultimately, of course, photography is about the image, not the camera. If you like shooting square, you may consider renting these items prior to deciding. It may take a while to get used to loading 120 film, but it's easy once you've had some experience. In addition to providing a higher resolution image, medium format photography tends to cause you to slow down, concentrating on both exposure and composition. You may find that whichever system you end up with, the quality your images and love of photography will increase.

 

Best of luck with whatever you choose,

Bradley

[dzeanah]

 

<p>We've all struggled with this question.</p>

<p>The above poster was right -- you should be sure to consider the Rollei offerings

as well. They didn't feel right for me, but if you want the best optics and

technology (at a <i>painful</i> price!) then Rollei is it.</p>

<p>If you're going to be making money with your camera, then Hasselblad is the

only choice in my mind. You can rent anything, anywhere. You'll need to have

any professionally used camera serviced, but you can still buy new parts for

500C's manufactured in the 50's (like mine!) and have it serviced locally. You

won't obsolete this camera. As for lenses, the lens designs haven't changed

on most models, so you're welcome to buy the older C lenses -- I <i>only</i>

own C lenses because I like the design (the moving DOF indicators are way cool,

and they're the only lenses with self-timers) and cost. </p>

<p>Bronica makes a good product -- the only complaints I've heard (and experienced)

have to do with film insert failures, but then again, how many inserts can you

buy for the cost of a Hasselblad back? Note that Bronica lenses are sold on

their <i>bokeh</i> performance in Japan, so one would assume good sharpness,

contrast, and nice out of focus highlights (the 150MC for my ETR was incredible

bokeh-wise, even if there was a lot of light fall-off). Rental for 6x6 Bronica

gear is nonexistent in every place I've looked, and <i>if</i> your camera fails

on a shoot I'd think clients would be more understanding if you were shooting

Hasselblad, because "it's the best." Arguable, but no-one's going

to say you were shooting with crap equipment and that the failure could have

been avoided with a better camera choice.</p>

<p>Now, you asked for advice: find a way to try them all out, and choose the one

that feels the best in your hand. You'll shoot best with the camera you like

the best, so go with what you like. For me, I didn't like the feel of the Rollei,

I didn't trust Bronica (bad experiences with two of the 645 models), and I <i>loved</i>

the quirks of the Hasselblad like the sound of the rear curtain. There's no

right answer here, and they're all excellent cameras.</p>

<p>One thought that might help you some: each camera has its own personality.

The Hasselblad 50x series are <i>manual</i> cameras. You may use a metered finder,

but it's still a mechanical camera and that will affect the way you shoot. There's

nothing you can do with medium format that you can't do with one of these, but

if you're not comfortable with the "guts" of photography you won't

be comfortable with one. If you are, then these are the simplest, easiest-to-use

cameras there are. This isn't a camera that will surprise you (except with its

optics and build quality). Small and light in the hand also.</p>

<p>The Rollei has all the good features and all the good optics (more than Hasselblad

-- they use the same Zeiss designs, but the Rollei has some really nice Schneiders

available too). Selection of accessories is nice, and from what I've heard the

system seems to be well built and reliable. The camera is probably more complete

-- shutter speeds up to 1/1000s, built-in spot meters with exposure compensation,

built in autowinder, inserts are cheap and quick loading, etc. Not much to complain

about if you like the feel of it.</p>

<p>I don't know -- it's late. You can't make a wrong decision here, so go with

what you like the best. Note that if you <i>really</i> want a Hasselblad (or

Rollei) and you settle now, you're probably making a mistake. You'll spend more

money overall, and you'll doubt your camera in the short term. Better to buy

the camera you like the best even if you can only afford one lens, than to settle

on a more complete system you don't like.</p>

<p>That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.</p>

<p> </p>

<p> </p>

 

[durocshark]

Something I didn't see above...

 

A rebuilt Kiev 88 or 60 from Hartblei or KievUSA will give you an inexpensive, relatively reliable body and access to some amazing and inexpensive lenses. Ziess Jena lenses are available for dirt cheap for the -60 mount and are awesome pieces of glass.

 

Remember to buy the rebuilt bodies. The dirt cheap bodies directly from the Ukraine sometimes act like they're full of sand. The rebuilt ones have remachined parts and act like a rougher version of any other 6x6 camera.

[ulrik_neupert]

Let me give you a terribly redundant answer. Although both cameras will give you pictures of similar quality the Bronica is so UGLY I would never consider it. Start with a 501 CM or if you need TTL-flash-metering with a 503CW. The Kiev prisms can be good value for money. I sold mine because of the weight, I prefer to compose with the standard viewfinder. When I bought my first Hasselblad as a poor student I could not imagine how to afford additional lenses. But they tend to accumulate over time, now I have more than I can carry (be sure, there are bargains out there). BTW, the jamming problem with Hasselblads has been discussed so often, I had two jammings in 12 years, one was my fault.--Ulrik

[yongfei]

Do you really need a Hasselblad or do you just want one?

 

As a guy who always want to have the best gear (don't care too much about photo though), I bought a new 501CM kit last year. So far, it's been a love-and-hate relationship. The biggest problem is that I don't use it that often after all (hint: are you interested in buying a rarely used second-hand? ;-), that puts me into a nasty category as a snobbish camera collector. Also, the used market is a hassle to deal with, too. My brand-new looking old 150 C chrome lens doesn't give me the confidence (lower-side of the shutter speed is about 3x off). So if I settle on old lens, why buy Hasselblad? If I buy a new one, I'll be wasting another $2000+ for something I don't use everyday. Robert White advertises a Sinar F-1 package with a Schneider lens for less than $1500, so it seems HB lens is really expensive.

 

Handhold a Hasselblad also defeats your purpose of getting the best out of MF. I hate to carry a heavy Bogen 3021 tripod everywhere. It looks very funny (even unsafe) in a crowded area when I travel.

 

Now the good part: I bought a Rollei MF projector with Schneider lens. The image quality is absolutely beautiful. It's good to think that I'm making some images that are technically sharper than some pro's. In camera lust, I always listen more to camera enthusiasts' opinion (like Phil) rather than pros' - many of pros make purchasing decisions on cost/performance ratio. Again, what for even if I have the best MF gear in the world? I'm thinking about moving into wedding business "part-time" to justify the ownership, but that may allure me into buying many more uncessary things.

 

Buy a Fuji or Mamiya rangefinder should be the best choice for your handhold work. If I know all the hassels in dealing with this baby, I'll defintely think about it more seriously. Think in SYSTEM. The sad thing is, your objective can change when you've got something. So buying second-hand and play-with-it for a year would be a good idea before making the final commitment. My objective was to have the best image quality, but now I realize that in print, 8 x 10 camera is really what I should have. But again, 6x6 will give you the best slide projection solution. So far, I'm satisfied overall and keep on dreaming about that "sharp" 180 lens. However, it's sad to just realize that a cheap Nikon 300M large format lens will make me a better print.

 

After all, I consider Leica, Hasselblad, large-format as milestones in a photographic odessy. Life still goes on without it, but life will be more colorful, more enthusiastic, more fulfuling for me just because I have the "Romance".

[jimmy_rhyne]

I use a Nikon F5 and F100 for 90% of my work but wanted something in MF so I got a YashicaMat 124G. This was a great move and I still have the camera. I later owned and sold the Mamiya RB 67 Pro-S sytem and the Bronica S2 system.

 

I now own a Koni Omega Rapid and Rapid Omega 200 as well as the Kiev 60 with the 45mm, 80mm, Zeiss 120mm and Zeiss 180mm. I love the Kiev 60 as it gives me what I need: quick handling, fast lens (3 of the 4 listed above are 2.8) and I got the system from a fellow www.photo.net member at a great price. If I was using MF exclusively I would want a Hassie or Rollei, but the Kiev 60 with Zeiss glass is cheap, fast, and produces great quality. You do have to deal with flash sync of only 1/30 but that is not a problem for me. I would be very hesitant about the Kiev 88, but the Kiev 60 is tough as nails in my opinion.