Is 10D so bad???

[linda_pullman]

Hello,

 

10D has made photogs happy so far. But last days I�ve met so many

negative opinions, like those two comments below I found on this

forum (posted today). Why? Is 10D so bad, now???

 

�The obvious answer is to buy a nice used EOS 1D as many others did

once they used the 10D. I have an EOS 1D and EOS D60 and have one

buddy that has a new 10D.�

 

�One of the main reasons (blown highlights) I sold my 10D. They

dynamic range just isn't there. Like you I went from a D-30 to the

10D and was not happy at all. The processing Canon uses internally

changed between the D60 to the 10D (using the DiGiC chip) and IMO it

just doesn't cut it. The color balance is very strange and the out of

gamut colors (purples especially) were a real hinderance. And, like

you posted, it blows out highlights which I found unacceptable.

Coughed up way too big dollars on a 1D and have been happy for

months. For the type of work I do, I don't see a need for a camera

for a long, long time... I loved my D30.�

 

Thanks, Linda

[patricks]

Linda et al,

 

the 10D is a very nice and capable camera, and probably one of the best digital buys around bare none. Today that is.

 

It is not a perfect camera, which, of course, there is no such thing. The dynamic range vs. film takes some getting use to. The viewfinder could be bigger/better/brighter. lacking true spotmetering. those are my main complaints.

 

it all depends on how you are going to use it and what system you are coming from/comparing to.

 

For the vast majority of serious amateurs (whatever that means) the 10D is a fantastic system. But surely it will be trumphed soon enough...

[kevin_hundsnurscher]

Think for a lot of people, the grass must always be greener on the other side.

[catchlight]

The only thing wrong with my 10D is that occasionally "the nut that holds the shutter button" is loose. That would be me.

 

It takes skill and practice on the part of the photographer to master exposure, control highlights and achieve correct focus, especially with a DSLR, and particularly under challenging conditions. The 10D will do its job if the photographer does his or her part.

 

When I'm using optimal technique, my 10D delivers superb results. When I'm lazy or in a hurry, the results vary accordingly, just as they do with my EOS3 or any other camera I've owned.

[bobatkins]

For everyone who has problems with the 10D, there are probably 99 people who love it and find no problems.

 

Some people don't like Leicas, some don't like Kodak film, some don't like Epson printers. Some don't like the 10D.

 

I'm happy with mine. The colors look fine (I had a D30 and didn't regret selling it when I got the 10D) and if you know how to use it you won't blow out highlights.

[PuppyDigs]

The internet is full of anonymous crybabies and complainers. They should get a life but whimpering on forums brings them great joy. Sure, the 10D isn't perfect, but once your learn its idiosyncrasies, it can produce incredible images, something these naysayers will never produce from any camera, film or digital.

[victor_yushenko]

Linda to properly value comments I always look at poster's pictures. If there are none or if they are bad, then I ignore (or downvalue) opinion. If poster has great images posted, that his/her opinion is much more valuable in my eye.

I have no posted pictures (so my opinion should not be seen as very valuable), but for what it worth, I love Digital Rebel, and 10D is only better. It is not a migical camera, so if you overexpose then hightlights will be blown, just like in any other image capuring device that I know of...

[beauh44]

Hi Linda, Someone said "The color balance is very strange and the out of gamut colors (purples especially) were a real hinderance."

 

It's funny - Popular Photography, at the time the 10D came out, said that the camera had the highest color accuracy of *any* camera they *ever* tested - film or digital. No small praise, IMHO. The above quote flies in the face of reality, I'm afraid.

 

You can't base an opinion on a couple of posts on the Internet because there will always be someone who'll complain about anything.

 

As for the "blown highlights". . . Well to my knowledge that 10D doesn't blow them any more or less than most other digital cameras. It's fairly common knowledge that almost all digital sensors behave much like slide film and the 10D is no exception. Many people intentionally underexpose their shots because you can pull quite a lot of detail from a shadowy 10D image, and when you shoot this way the highlights tend to do fine. Besides, the camera has a light meter and histogram and its owners should learn how to use them.

 

Lastly, perhaps I haven't read the article, but I'm not aware that the 1D blows highlights less or provides a superior image to the 10D. I've owned a 10D for almost 10 months and can tell you it's been the most fun I've had with a camera and I sure wouldn't sell mine - not even for a 1D. (A 1Ds . . . maybe!:) Best wishes . . .

[linda_pullman]

Yeah, I feel better now. Thanks.

 

Linda

[jkantor]

I have two 10Ds that I use at weddings. They are very well made, the ergonomics are terrific, and the picture quality is superb. For color, I prefer it to film. Blown highlights are always going to be something you have to watch out for with digital.

 

However, that brings up the lack of a spotmeter. Weddings are very difficult to shoot - the contrast range is huge and the light is always changing. With my EOS3, I spotmeter on faces (sometimes on the bride's dress or groom's tux) and get great exposures. With the 10Ds I have to be very conservative in my exposures - which leads to a lot of postprocessing and lower quality images - and I have to spend a lot of time checking the histogram display while I am shooting.

 

Canon does this on several of their cameras - purposely crippling them to stop them from undercutting their more expensive ones. I have 10Ds because I have a big investment in Canon lenses and I can't afford to switch to Nikon (yet). Don't buy a 10D if you can buy Nikon (or Fuji) instead.

[chip]

Hi Linda and other readers,

 

The 10D is not so much BAD as much as a step backward in the area of dynamic range. In almost all other areas (well except maybe for the 10D focusing problems), the 10D is a step forward from the D60. I WISH it wasn't so but after using a borrowed 10D (which focuses fine BTW), and working with these 10D images I've decided to see what Canon comes out in the way of higher pixel desities in a camera more like my EOS 1D than an Elan. I need a back up camera body and would buy an EOS 1Ds but want to see what Canon will do next before making a spare body purchase.

 

This is not an new problem, most of Ansel Adams' photographic technique was developed to overcome the very limited range of photographic materials. These problems have not gone away in the slightest.

 

The problem is that if you expose to fully capture and retain the highlight areas with a 10D there is little or no shadow detail to pull out in post capture processing. This problem is the lesser of two evils (the other being to let the highlights go to retain shadow detail), but still a serious problem for any photographer who wants to capture what they are seeing. This is a problem even with Pro class low contrast films, it's just made worse by many digital sensors.

 

The problem as I see it is that the 10D is even less capable of capturing the full dynamic range than the previous generation of Canon digital bodies like the D30, D60, 1D and 1Ds. IMO this is a move in the WRONG direction.

 

Being an old school B&W shooter and darkroom addict, keeping good shadow detail while retaining detail in the highlight areas is the trademark of a fine B&W or color print. So this is what I am trying to capture when I expose with film or digital so that I can convey this image fully to paper.

 

I was shocked and worried about the lack of dynamic range of digital cameras when I first bought a digital body. After much work, printing, tweaking, printing many more images and tweaking somemore I think I can live with the more limited range of digital but don't see a reason to promote a camera that is weak in such an important technical aspect.

 

Kevin, I like the color of the grass where I'm standing right now with both an EOS 1D and D60. I don't know where you're standing but it can't get any greener with out spreading manure (it's that time of year you know).

 

HTH

[beauh44]

It might be cheaper to just buy the 1Ds, which has the spotmeter and an 11Mp CMOS sensor, than to change brands and toss out your lens investments too. I'm not sure there's any one camera that fits every need and situation - I think the 10D really shines in the studio where one has total control over the light. Obviously it's not that easy at a wedding or outside. And it's not just Canon that keeps a few features from its less-expensive brand cameras. I recall sitting on the fence trying to decide between a Nikon N80 and a Canon Elan 7 for my first (non hand-me-down) SLR. I went with the Canon because the Nikon did not have mirror-lock. And while Nikon cameras are some of the best there is, I'm glad I went with Canon and never looked back. Best wishes . . .

[linda_pullman]

Hmmm, I feel worse now :(

[jorge_ituarte3]

I think most of the problems described are symptomatic of Capture One and the 10d. I stopped using the app for my 10d about a week after purchase. Canon has proprietary information in there raw files that they are not giving to third party raw conversion folks. despite the lousy user interface there is more under the hood of the Canon FVU that most realize. I use Breeze Browser (same code lybrary as Canon FVU better user interface).

 

I agree dynamic range could be better on the 10d but it's about the same as slide film. Maybe better.

[digitmstr]

>>Being an old school B&W shooter and darkroom addict, keeping good shadow detail while retaining detail in the highlight areas is the trademark of a fine B&W or color print. So this is what I am trying to capture when I expose with film or digital so that I can convey this image fully to paper.<<

 

right-then, you above others must understand that the picture is "finalized" during development and printing. In B&W you can expose for the shadows and pull process. With slides you would expose for the highlights since the latitude is much less. Then, during printing, masking, dodging and burning are the tools used to make impeccable prints.

 

Well, the same is true with digital. If you want the SAME degree of control USE RAW and convert with a good program, like C1 DSRL PRO, I guarantee you better results than anything you have ever used. Not only can you adjust ALL parameters during "development" but, Photoshop allows a degree of editing simply NOT possiblt in a traditional darkroom. If you expect the pictures to come out perfect from the digital camera it is not a fair comparison. After all, there *IS* a difference between 1 hr photo and a PRO lab prints.

[digitmstr]

there's absolutely NO issue whatsoever with purple or any other color imbalance with the 10D. I have found, without exception so far, that most claims result from user error (I am not suggesting the poster with the color claim is one of them since he did not type enough info to know what he's basing his assertion on). Some people set the camera to AUTO everything and then they get disappointed when the results don't match expectation. Or, they fail to even grasp the reality and concept of digital imaging/photography. When you take your negs to your local 1hr lab, many adjustments are made prior to printing. Much more so if you take them to a PRO lab. Why shouldn't the same be expected for digital prints?

 

The camera doesn't exist and never will (I know, never say never...) that will produce PERFECT slides/negs/digipix right out of the box. Why don't you RENT a 10D and see for yourself? But, do it ONLY after you have taken the time to learn a little about digital photography, otherwise it would be a useless excercise.

 

People ofetn times are offended when user error is pointed out to them in this forum. Yet, they are so quick to defame a product. And, in my book, user error is not limited to the operation of any given piece of equipment but, often time it is the FAILURE to research before hand whether such piece of equipment would satisfy one's *specific* needs/demands/expectations.

 

Of ALL reviews done so far by trusted and reputable magazines, internet sites, etc...no one has mentioned any of the issues listed here. How is it possible? Are the all wrong? Are they being paid by Canon?

 

I took me a whole day to get used to the camera, and about a week to really get to know it and get good results. But, I have been shooting for 20 years, have a B&W and color darkroom, medium format cameras, etc... And I can tell you the claims made herein are without substance for the reasons I stated in the earlier post. If you want perfect results shoot RAW, develop with the changes you require, edit the image and then, print. This is the same exact sequence one would do in a traditional film process.

 

To expect digital to behave exactly like film would be like asking film to magically appear in our computer screen after developing.

[jim_larson1]

Huh. Where's Jay? This is his kind of thread!! :)

 

Dynamic range aside, I take more photos with the 10D than I did with my previous SLR. I think I now take better pictures than I did a year ago.

 

Still waiting for a new dSLR, kind of like a 1D with a full frame 6mp sensor, coupled with a 24-70/4L lens.

[chris_hawkins]

Puppy Face says "The internet is full of anonymous crybabies and complainers." Ironic.

[gerry_szarek]

Linda, assuming you buy a 10D which I strongly can recommend (this is coming from a M Leica guy), including some good glass, you will be set. I recommend the lenses 17-40F4L, 50F1.4, 70-200, now you are set.

 

Blown highlights are fixed most of the time by using the partial metering method vs the matrix. Colors are fine just straight up. Do shoot everything in RAW if you are picky about the details.

 

Now read the manual three times and get shooting.

 

BTW, do NOT opt for the digital rebel a number of very usefull features were removed.

 

BTW where is Jay??? Must be stuck over at the other forum?

 

Gerry

[joey_tjosephy]

I just like the people that say I will buy a dslr when.........

[steve_barnett2]

'Linda, assuming you buy a 10D which I strongly can recommend (this is coming from a M Leica guy), including some good glass, you will be set. I recommend the lenses 17-40F4L, 50F1.4, 70-200, now you are set.'

 

You took the words out of my mouth Gerry. My exact 'set up', and yes, I am a picky Leica user who doesn't like crappy cameras or lenses.

 

Linda,the only problem with the 10d comes from the expectations of new users who are unwilling, or incapable, of adapting to a new discipline. The first thing to understand about ANY DSLR is that by default it doesn't do things in the same way as a P&S digital camera, nor indeed a film camera. Realize that and you will understand the necessity of learning a new craft. The rest is simple.

[michael focus97.com lee]

I agree with above posters.... all the research sources I encountered that had positive things to say can't ALL be wrong!! Before I bought my 10D, I wanted to be darn sure I was making a wise investment. Countless magazines, pro-photographers, internet sites, and the like, raved of the 10D's incredible value for the money. "Value for the money" means that it's not perfect, but has the ability to produce fantastically superb pictures.

 

Sure, I've had blown highlights, but some careful balancing of the composition help set things straight. Color accuracy, as reported in PopPhoto, is very, very accurate.

 

Perhaps it's the price tag that makes people think the camera should be taking perfect pictures, just like their eye saw. ($1.5K was a bit of money for me too.) Think about how you could spend thousands on large format field equipment, set up a shot for about five minutes just to fire the shutter once, then end up with an ruined piece of film that's about the size of regular binder paper!

[mike_lepp1]

Hi Linda,

 

Shooting with the 10d is no different that using different film. Each has it's own quirks. The 10d (my g2 and a70), has a tendancy to blow out highlights. Yet it gets great shadow detail. The cure? Learn to expose for the media.

 

Like many people here who have shot lots of chrome like Velvia, it had the opposite problem. While there was a more linear step until the highlights were blown, the shadow detail is very easy to lose.

[linda_pullman]

Gerry, Steve and everyone

 

You recommend 50mm f/1.4 lens. I have one but f/1.8. Is it good enough?

 

Linda

[doug_lee__cinnaminson__nj]

Linda, the 50mm f/1.8 should be fine.

 

Re the 10D. Buy one if you can afford it. I own one and like it. The wedding studio I shoot for uses both the 10d and the 1D for wedding work. As others have pointed out, the 10D gives you a digital negative which you must then take into your digital darkroom and work with. I am struggling to learn Photoshop as I write this.

 

Good luck and have fun!