entry into MF buying decision

[sharif]

Dear All,

 

I am considering buying a MF setup after doing 35mm and digital

photography for a couple of years. I do not want to build up an

extensive system but rather want a simple setup with a bright normal

lens. The reason for me to get into MF is that I like the mechanical

engineering of those bodies and like the idea to use old all

mechanical systems. Second I'd like to try develop and print myself

and wish simply to try out the quality advantage of MF over 35mm and

35mm based digital systems like the EOS 10D which I currently use. I

do not want to spend a fortune and wish to keep my investment into MF

below USD 600)

 

Here are a couple of (used camera) options that I currently consider:

 

* a Rolleiflex twin lens camera with a f/2.8 since I understand that

those cameras are relatively compact, small and are good for candid

street photography which I enjoy to do

 

* Hasselblad 500c/m with standard lens. I like this thing for it's

look and the technical engineering myth that goes around it. It may

be slightly over my budget though. I understand that the SLR models

are bulkier and heavier than the Rolleiflexes are.

 

* Mamiya 645 this might solve the price and some of the weight

problem I may have with the Hassy, although this is not a fully

mechanic system as I understand it.

 

* Bronica S2a if I want an all mechanical system or ETRSi if I want a

more recent model.

 

I believe I would be fine with a waist level finder and would not

need a prism finder. Unfortunately I was not able to find out which

purely mechanical camera options exist in the MF market. May be this

is a stupid idea anyway. Are there any major advantages in the newer

design models over the older mechanical ones? (Like the Mamiya 645E

for example which looks like a good budget SLR alternative)

 

Please share your wisdom with me and tell me which route you would

recommend me to follow.

 

Regards,

Sharif

[ike k]

Hi Sharif,

 

 

From your hint that you enjoy street photography then you already answered your own questions, Rolleiflex TLR period!.

 

 

Ike

[bobby_cranford]

Sharif:

 

I started into Medium format with a Rolleiflex 2.8E. (It was stolen out of my car last year during a trip). It is a nice camera. If you like the feeling of mechanical objects, it is wonderful. The Hasselblad is also. I would go for the Rollei if you do not want to use additional lenses. This was my thought at first, but I got hooked on Medium format and wound up buying a Rollei 6008i, so beware the lure of the larger negative.

 

One thing to consider concerning the Rollei or for that matter all of the older cameras is the focusing screens. On the older models, they tend to be dim, so you might want to budget for a replacement screen from Maxwell Optics or Beattie. I had one in my Rolleiflex - big improvement.

 

It is a pleasure to work with a medium format negative in your own darkroom.

 

Sincerely,

 

Bobby

[berg_na]

I went through the same exercise recently, and picked up a clean 500C with the 80 mm lens for less than $600 on that auction place. The cameras you've picked out are all good choices, but the construction quality of the Rolleis and Blads is a cut above the others. The Rollei is lighter and quieter than the Blad, but I prefer to have the ability to change lenses and film backs. I also have a D100, but I really enjoy shooting with the 500C. Prices of used MF equipment have dropped tremendously lately, it's a great time to get in!

[jbq]

TLRs are really fun to use. If eBay is an option for you, you may want to start by a used Seagull. They're not nearly as good optically as Rolleiflex, but that'll give you an idea of how such cameras behave, at a fraction of the price (which also makes them nice to have as a backup of in "dangerous" situations). Don't pay full price for a new Seagull, though.

[p._neil_ralley]

Sharif, if you like Hasselblad but it is outside your price range I suggest that you take a look at the Bronica SQA and SQAi line-up. You can get a really nice back, body and lens combination well within your budget and if you decide later to go for a wider or longer lens it will not cost an arm and a leg. I have also heard of good deals recently with 6x7 format but those may be too unwieldy for street photography.

[rover]

I like Berg recently decided to enter MF with a Hasselblad. I love it, am having a lot of fun, and learning quite a bit about photography using a 100% manual camera. Although you can use it for handheld photography, I am sure a TLR would be much better for this. The Hasselblad is heavy, and the shutter, mirror and secondary doors protecting the film all move when you hit the shutter release button. This all make a wonderfully complex sound, but surely it is best used on a tripod. For this reason I actually just aquired an inexpensive Yashica TRL which will be better suited for handheld photography.

 

Whatever you choose, good luck. I don't think there is a bad choice in those you listed, just different ones.

[mskovacs]

I have a Rolleiflex 2.8E and my only criticism would be that the WLF can be a little tough to use with moving targets. The lack a viewfinder blackout is a huge advantage for shooting candids.

[sharif]

Thanks for all your ideas and suggestions (keep it flowing...)

A question to Neill: you suggested the Bronica SQ-A. Can you give me an idea gow this camera would compare to the ETRSi and the other SLR options I mentioned?

Regards,

Sharif

[p._neil_ralley]

Sharif, there is a good review of the SQA & SQAi here on Photo.net http://www.photo.net/bronica/sq-ai and there is another, more comprehensive, one which unfortunately I could not locate off-hand. The SQA and SQAi are 6x6 format as opposed to the ETRS family which is 645. I bought one just recently and my initial impression is very favourable but I have not used it anywhere nearly enough to consider myself qualified to recommend it. Like one or two earlier posters I like the simplicity of this camera. The shutter is electronic but everything else is back to basics - you set your aperture, you set your shutter speed and you focus. For the budget you have in mind you can certainly get a nice SQA outfit and possibly even an extra lens or an eye-level finder or a spare back. What amazes me is the huge difference between what these were costing brand new not that long ago and what you can get them for now. It is a substantial piece of kit - heavier and bulkier than (say) a Mamiya 645 or a Bronica ETRS - but it is definitely hand-holdable either at waist or eye-level. Just my 2C...

[sharif]

many thanks Neil!! Sharif

[fwstutterheim]

As Mike explained, the WLF of the Rolleiflex is not ideal for moving subjects. You can

use

the "sports finder" for this. The framing is not very accurate, following a moving

object is easy. Next to the 2.8 line of Rolleiflexes comes the 3.5 line. The 3.5 are a bit

cheaper and have the same fine built quality. The Rolleiflex TLR's are the best MF

cameras for hand held photography. IMHO that is. Budget for a CLA as you are

planning to use the camera. A CLA is a good time to have a new screen installed,

unless you go for a camera with the latest finder hood. In that case screen

replacement is a DIY job. Good luck. Ferdi.

[goemon]

I have an Bronica S2A and a YashicaMat (kind of like the Rolleiflex but not quite as good). I like the S2A a lot, and you can get them for a song, but they make a very startling noise when you trigger the shutter and it's on the heavy side. If you want to do street photography, I'd have to recommend the Rolleiflex; my 'Mat's shutter is so quiet sometimes even I can't hear it go off.

 

I don't feel that newer models buy you all that much over the older ones. This is particularly true for TLRs, where new you have a choice between a Seagull or a Rolleiflex 2.8GX--for the price of the latter I could buy every S2A lens and back I've ever seen.

[kaiblanke]

Just for toying around with a MF camera a Hassy would not be the right camera. It really requires a tripod and careful work. A Rolleiflex is much more movable. If you budget is tight, look out for either a 3.5 Planar / Xenotar or an Automat with a coated Tessar. Stopped down the results are indistinguishable. The Tessar is not as bad as many think also wide open, and the price for an Automat is about half of a Planar/Xenotar or even less. I would stay away from the T-models, they have a not very reliable EVS coupling.

<p>

Although investing in a SLR has the advantage of later adding a digital back ... but that investment is so high that an additional body and lens is a relative small amount compared to the back. I doubt you will see much of a difference between your 10D and a MF negative/slide, but working with 120 film is just way cooler than handling with huge raw files.

[thebigfish]

Hi there. I've owned and operated all the cameras you are refering to. I would give the

following recommendation: get a Mamiya 6 used with an 80 mm lens. Rollies and

Hasselblads have sharp lenses, but without coupled metering systems are slow for

street photography. The Mamiya lenses seem comparable to Hasseblad's and the

Mamiya is lighter, easier to focus, faster to load, has a built in meter, and is more

compact. You will love shooting in the street with the Mamiya. (Avoid Bronica. They

were outdated a long time ago.) Hope that helps.

Brian

www.brianhallett.com

[robert_nancarrow]

Sharif, I have some opinions that may help with your choice as I have used/owned most of the cameras on your list. The rolleiflex is quiet and has a great result but people will know from a long distance that you have a camera with you, using the finder is a little difficult for quick candids, unless you want to crop some. The image is reversed and it'll take some time for you to be able to move with your subject and keep the camera level. The hasselblad is a great camera/lenses but limited in that it has lots of moving parts when taking the picture causing noise and vibration. You are limited to about 1/60th second shutter speed handheld and even then not sure to get a sharp negative. The bronica is similar enough to the hasselblad that you should just consider the hassy, since the used prices are so low now and the zeiss lenses are pretty much without peer. Since you enjoy street photography I would suggest another alternative. The Mamiya 6 (6x6 neg.) or Mamiya 7 (6x7 neg.) is a smallish camera for the size negative, it has a built in meter that, although not TTL, gives very consistantly good results. The finder is bright and clear and is sometimes compared to the Leica finder, probably the best 35mm for street shots. The rangefinder focusing is fast and true. The camera is pretty unobtrusive and very, very quiet with no mirror slap. You can use different lenses with it, the 150mm is my favorite for candid street shots, maintaining a slight distance to the subject and giving shallow depth of field for isolation. All the lenses are extremely sharp and they are much smaller than the Hassy lenses. The Mamiya 6 can be bought used for cheap, about at your price target maybe a little more, but you must be aware that it has had some history of film advance problems that may not be fixable, even by Mamiya. If you could get one in great shape, send it for CLA and don't beat up the film advance and it should be OK. Also, the 6 has a collapsible lens mount which makes the camera very small for carrying when not taking a picture. It is built like a tank. you can google the mamiya 6 or 7 and read many glowing reviews, I think this camera should be on your list of considerations. Bob.

[robert_nancarrow]

Oops, just ran my post and saw one that slipped in in front of mine with the same suggestion. Didn't mean to be redundant or duplicative. Bob.

[robert_nancarrow]

Sorry about the many posts but I'm passionate about the Mamiya 6. I wanted to add that I have both the 6 (with 50,75 and 150mm) and the 7 (with the 65mm) but I much prefer the 6 due to its collapsing mount and it's square negative, especially for street shooting, you never have to consider turning the camera on it's side for a shot. There is another concern for the street shooter, the lenses don't have very large openings, f3.5 is the largest on the 75mm lens. This is remedied with 400 speed film. You will still get more resolution than 35mm. I agree with the other poster that you should really love taking pictures with this camera, I do. Bob.

[ras1500]

If you want a camera that is purely mechanical, then you don't want a Mamiya 645e. It requires a battery to operate the shutter and the meter. Additionally, the 645e is only available with a prism finder. That said, it's a really great low priced camera to get into MF and can be the foundation for a system. I have used the Rolleiflex in the past and it is a good camera that is purely mechanical. For less money than the Rolleiflex, look into the Minolta Autocord. The Minolta lens quality is as good as the Rollei (some say it's better) and the position of the Minolta focus lever makes for easier handling.

[OCULUS New York]

Sharif, A couple of random (personal experience) thoughts that may, or may not, be in the above:

Waist level finders are left-right reversed; you get used to it....slowly. But if you are using other prisim cameras, it is disorienting anywhere but in a studio.

 

I had a Pentacon Six TL (big 35mm-style body) with Carl Zeiss Jena lenses that are pennies-on-the-dollar, compared to Zeiss leaf-shutter lenses. These cameras can be updated by the Exakta factory for a VERY reasonable amount, and then you can buy a whole range of wonderful CZJ lenses and still be only about $1500 TOTAL with fisheye to 180! Only absolute necessity is the Rollei (cut down) screen. The OEM viewfinder is pathetic. A metered prism is desirable, but the whole kit then becomes like a doghouse mounted on top of brick outhouse.

 

I sold my near-complete Pent 6 setup because I stumbled onto a huge bargain setup of a Rollei SLX Mk.2 (2 is critical). Since I already run a new Rollei 6003, the SLX became my backup camera and the Pent 6 and lenses got put back on ePrey. Now, I have a continuum of interchangable Rollei lenses and one less big bag of stuff to store/haul. You can get a good SLX2 with Planar 80 for much less than a $1000 and it has a VERY good coupled meter. You can stick with the waist finder or move to a 45 or 90 degree prism for right-side around viewing (pistol grip too). http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=1938940&size=lg One handy shot from it.

 

WARNING: There is a kerthunk/plunk to this camera's shutter operation that is right up there with Mercedes Benz doors from the 50s.....you know what I mean.

 

Ray Hull

[sharif]

Thank all - so much for your valuable contributions to my strive for my first MF. (I needed some thinking before I got what CLA means, thoug... :-)

 

I am still indecisive and will probably make my choice dependent on what I first find on ebay for an acceptable price.

 

I like the idea of getting a Rolleyflex TLR since those have become rather inexpensive and I believe they are unobtrusive due to their design.

 

I also have my eye on a Hassy combo which I may buy if the price is not bid up too far...

 

I also like the Mamiya Rangefinders. If I was planning to use the MF setup as my major street photography system then I would strongly consider the 6 or 7 model. But I belief that as a main system my 10D setup should continue to serve all my needs and my strive into MF is rather a matter of curiosity and joy of those beautifully engineered cameras....

 

Many thanks to all of you once again!

Sharif

[steve_levine]

I would go with an SLR,not a TLR.TLR's are clunky,heavy,awkward and are hard to use if you used to an eye level SLR.

[andre_noble4]

Haselblad. (This from a Bronica fan.)

[wayne_crider4]

Sharif , just to jump on the band wagon so to say, you might very well

consider a Mamiya 645 Super. Prices should be right for you. The big plus is

ability to change backs, lenses and finders. I picked one up and find it just

right for street stuff. The ability to use a prism has it all over just a waistlevel,

which at times is fine, but not all the time. It's much easier to shoot over

railings with the prism and you don't have to bend over all the time and use

the magnifier for critical focusing. Consider a 55mm on a 645 for better dof.

[john_elder1]

Sharif, buy a TLR Rolleiflex YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT! I have many cameras in small, medium, and large format. My rolleiflex 3.5E was one of my more recent purchases[3years ago] It is now my favorite medium format camera and it is a very difficult decision for me whether to take the Rollei or the Leica M for street photograhy. Make sure you buy a Rollie TLR that is in great condition. Prices are very low on e-bay for great TLR's. Wait till you see one that is in great condition or has had a recent cla before you buy, I liked my Rollie so much a bought a second for backup so I would never be without one.