birthday present...nikon or canon

[silverderek]

hello,

 

i am about to buy a birthday present for a beginner photographer who

has only had previous experience with P&S cameras. I am deciding

whether i want to go with the canon rebel 2000 (the kit: w/ two

lenses and bag) or the nikon n75 w/ one lens...personally, i like the

canon because there is a larger range of iso input than the nikon.

however, nikon has a good reputation for quality.

 

things to consider: 1) this is for a beginner. so she wants a new

camera and i wanted to get her two lenses (~35-80, ~90-200) that came

with a bag and film just to get her started. 2) price range is tops

$350.

 

thanks for the input.

[jay ott]

IMHO, I would recommend a manual focus camera such as the Nikon FE10 or FM10 since both were designed with the beginner in mind. These are both sold as kits at B&H and include the 35-70 and the 70-210 zooms. The best way to learn what a camera is doing is by the photographer controlling everything by him or her self until it becomes second nature rather than letting the camera do the thinking and controlling.

 

Ideally, you'd be better off getting a used camera and one prime lens such as a 28mm or 50mm because for around that same price range you could have a Cadillac e.g. Nikon FM2 or F3 used rather than a Chevy i.e. FM10 but new.

[chuck]

While there is reason for getting a manual body as recommeded above, you are far more likely to score points with an late model AF body. Most photonetters forget that the other 99% of the world is not well adjusted and mentally balanced like we are. :-)<p>

Let me deflate your 2 assumptions:<p>

1. The larger ISO range of the Canon body has almost no practical application, because it covers range for which there is no, and never has been, usable film available. If one were to get oneself into the almost inconceivable situation where one push or pull normal film into these ranges, one would surely have already learned the magic of exposure compensation, which can be made to do precisely the same thing.<p>

2. Nikon has a reputation for quality, yes. But evidence is scarce that late model budget priced NIkon bodies is any better than equivalent Canon. For that matter, Canon has a reputation for quality also.<p>

Now where does that leave you? I guess it leaves you to getting her a $350 gift cirtificate so she could try out the bodies herself and see what she likes.

[richard_milner2]

As a Nikon user I must vote for Nikon.

 

Seriously, you will do well with either a Canon or a Nikon SLR. They are both good manufacturers.

 

The one thing I do suggest is stick to one lens. Giving a beginner two lenses is offering too much choice and will simply confuse them.

[jespdj]

Derek, it doesn't really matter. Canon and Nikon are the two most well-known brands. The kit lenses are not the best lenses that you can get, but for a beginner they will be OK - if she seriously takes up photography, she can buy better and more expensive lenses.

<p>I consider myself an advanced amateur. I had a Minolta camera but switched to Canon, because Canon is the leader in digital SLRs at the moment (Minolta doesn't make any digital SLR). Maybe there might be reasons like that to prefer Canon over Nikon. By the way, Nikon also makes nice DSLRs.

[christopher_bibbs]

Don't worry about the brand. My sister-in-law and I have low end Nikon and Canon cameras respectively and guess what? They both work great. Unless you can find out if she has a preference, I wouldn't worry too much, just be sure you can exchange it.

 

I'd be more concerned about your choice in lenses. If your friend is only going to make 4x6 prints, those zooms are fine. If she may want to make some bigger prints, you'll be doing her a bigger favor by skipping the kit zoom and going for a nice 50mm prime.

[peterd]

Have you considered the N80 as opposed to the N75? A few more options and better features for not much more plus there is currently a 50.00 rebate to pad the deal. Adorama and BH both have kits but you may be better off doing a single nice lens. There is some really good info on phils camera reviews and what to buy sections. I really like the posters idea of the gift certificate. That lets the reciever get exactly what they want though it is not as fun when giving it. Pete

[douglas_green1]

What you should do is take her shopping, give her a fixed budget ($350 is certainly a reasonable one), and several recommended choices to try out, and let her choose, then you pay for it. The most important difference between these brands is the ergonomics of how they operate, and only she can tell which will be her preferred choice. I'd include a good manual SLR among the choices, but I'd certainly not buy one of those for her unless SHE expresses an interest in the type of control and build quality that these offer over the newer autofocus models.

[the_macman]

I would not give two lenses as a gift to a beginner photographer. With such a

limit it would have to be crappy ones and if the person is starting seriously in

photography, they'd possibly be tossed away very soon. I'd rather go for a

good body and a 50mm, much more useful.

[greg_mason]

your daughter will be very please with either camera. at this price there is very little functional difference between the two cameras. what is more important, especially with women or people with small hands is the ergonomics of a camera. your daughter may choose one over the other simply because one camera fits better in her hands and the controls are more accesible to her fingers. most reliable camera stores carry both lines and have a decent return policy talk with them and tell them your situation. i personally shoot with a minolta because it feels like it made specifically for my hands.

[peter_phan]

Both cameras are very comparable in many respects. However, there are some differences between the Rebel 2000 and the N75 that may some day be of importance to an advancing photographer.

 

The Rebel 2000 has manual film speed DX override, while the N75 does not. Manually film speed override allows you to manually set the film speed. For example, many films perform better when they are shot at speeds other than their nominal speed. Some ISO 400 films perform better when shot at ISO 320 or ISO 250, for example. This also allows you to push film. For example, if you are using an ISO 200 film, but need something faster, you can set the film speed setting to ISO 400, shoot like normal, and ask for push-processing when you have your film developed. When I was shooting film (now I shoot digital), I was regularly re-rating my films with the manual film-speed override on the camera. For example, I really liked shooting Ilford XP2 Super 400, but as many know, it performs better when shot at ISO 320 or 250. On the Rebel 2000, you can re-set the film speed, but on the N75 you won't be able to do that.

 

The Rebel 2000 accepts a cable release, while the N75 does not. As an avid landscape photographer, shooting with a tripod, I regularly used a cable release to trip the shutter. The Rebel 2000 takes a very nice electronic cable release (that is also compatible with the Elan 7 and Digital Rebel cameras, should you ever upgrade). The cable release allows you to activate autofocus and metering, trip the shutter, and do long-exposure bulb photography. The N75 does not accept a cable release.

 

The Rebel 2000 does high-speed flash sync, while the N75 does not. Both the Rebel 2000 and N75 have a fairly slow flash sync speed of 1/90th second. That means that you can not use flash with any shutter speed faster than 1/90th-- unless the camera system is capable of high-speed flash sync, which all Canon EOS cameras are. High speed flash sync (aka FP flash) fires a series of flash pulses that allows you to use flash well beyond the maximum flash sync speed. That means with the Rebel 2000, you can use the flash at 1/125th, 1/250th, etc. all the way as fast as the Rebel 2000's fastest shutter speed of 1/2000th. But you do need a Canon E-TTL compatible external flash, and it does decrease the effective distance range of the flash. Nevertheless, it's a great feature to have that allows you to not be limited by the camera's slow 1/90th flash sync speed. The N75 is not compatible with high-speed sync flash.

 

The Rebel 2000 is also compatible with Canon's wireless TTL flash system. If you have a 550EX flash or an ST-E2 wireless transmitter, you can fire one or mutliple flashes wirelessly. Obviously, this is an additional expenditure because you need more equipment. But it is something that the Canon flash system does, and that all current Canon EOS cameras are compatible with. Nikon is coming out with a similar flash system, but none of Nikon's pre-existing cameras are compatible with it. Needless to say, the N75 can't do wireless TTL flash.

 

The other factor in choosing between the Canon and Nikon is the pricing of lenses and accessories. Both are equal in quality, reliability, and reputation. However, Nikon lenses and accessoris are generally priced higher than Canon lenses and accessories, even though they are equivalent in quality. Over the long run, this can really add up.

[peter_phan]

Also, as others have mentioned, getting a 50mm prime lens is a good idea. Canon and Nikon both offer excellent, affordable 50mm f/1.8 lenses. Both are extremely sharp, are great for low-light photography, and offer beautifully shallow depth of field when used at maximum aperture. I think every photographer should have a 50mm prime lens. The Canon 50/1.8 is $70 at B&H Photo. The Nikon 50/1.8 is $100 at B&H Photo. As you can see, there is a difference in pricing, although both are equally sharp.

[umd]

There is not much difference in both cameras and systems, go and play with either and get the one you like.

 

But for the sake of not making a troll go unchallenged, let me state the following:

 

- First, avoid comparing feature lists, it isn't quantity of features but their quality. In my opinion two are below.

 

- 'Spot metering' is the decisive difference between the two cameras, which the F75 has. In Canon line you have to get at least an EOS-3 for it. Not even $1500 10D has it. A separate hand held spotmeter (for large and med format shooting pros) costs as much as the cameras you are considering.

 

- Nikon isn't coming with a flash system that was supposedly inferior to Canon, it is already better than Canon's current system. Reason? Nikon flashes utilise distance information from the lens and give better exposures. Distance information is a key ingredient in flash exposure calculations.

 

Also,

 

- High speed synch isn't a remarkable feature (IMO) cause it makes flash lose most of its illuminating power.

 

- In most cases you can use self timer instead of a cable release. I wouldn't devote a novel on that.

 

- Yes, 50mm/1.8 Canon lens is cheaper than Nikon's but isn't constructed as good. Go and compare. You get what you pay for.

[john_grable]

The effectiveness difference between a partial meter and a spot meter are really dependent upon the photographer. Spot meters are very tricky to use. If you happen to point it at something that is perfectly equivalent to 18% grey, then you'll get an accurate exposure. If the object isn't 18% grey, the exposure will be thrown off. At that point, you can apply the appropriate EV compensation, but then you need to know the degree of deviation that object is from standard 18% grey. When all is said and done, the partial meter is much more forgiving because it uses a slightly larger sampling area to assess exposure. If you're not really adept at spot metering, a spot meter can be a lot more trouble than it is a benefit. Besides, if you shoot print film, either a partial meter or a spot meter is more than enough for great exposure. Heck, plain old center-weighted metering is fine.

 

As for Nikon's flash system that uses distance information, it isn't all that great. Because it uses distance (calculated based on where the lenses focus system is focused at), it can be tricked when you use bounc or tilt flash. When bouncing the flash (off a ceiling, for example, which gives the most pleasing flash illumination) it has no way of knowing how far that flash light has to travel to get to the subject. The Canon flash system, since it uses a pre-flash (milliseconds before the actual flash fire) to measure the actual amount of flash bouncing off the subject, handles tilt/bounce flash extremely well. Furthermore, there are times when the lens focus distance and the flash distance are not the same. The Canon flash system handles this quite well, too, because the Canon system allows you to pre-flash off the subject, lock in that flash value, focus wherever you want, then take the shot, and flash exposure won't be messed up. It's also interesting to note that Nikon is coming out with a brand new flash system called I-TTL that is almost identical to Canon's E-TTL, using the same pre-flash exposure system, offering the same features that Canon's system has always offered. It sounds like imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, no?

 

On high-speed flash sync, it's not a critical issue on higher-level camera with flash sync speed of 1/200. But having a flash sync speed of only 1/90 is really slow. So the high speed flash sync is going to be very helpful. It lowers flash power a bit, but that only means it won't be able to fill a big room with as powerful a blast of flash as before. It still works great for fill flash and normal flash ranges. Normally, flash photography with a modern accessory flash doesn't use the entire capacity of the flash's output anyways. So in most cases, the lower output won't even be noticed.

 

As for substituting a self-timer for a cable release, I don't think that's a very good substitute. With a cable release, you control when the shot it taken. With a self-timer, you don't. I don't know why Nikon didn't just include that capability. Every other camera on the market has some sort of cable release capacity.

 

One thing no one has mentioned is that the Rebel 2000 has an exposure conpensation scale that is always visible on the outside LCD. That's important. It's a great learning tool, and something that always should be visible. Both the Rebel and the N75 have it inside the viewfinder, but I just like seeing it on the outside LCD, too.

 

Both the Rebel 2000 and the N75 are great cameras. But you get a little more for your money and have access to more features with the Rebel. But the fact that you can manually override the film speed on the Canon alone would be reason enough for me to choose the Canon, regardless of all the other stuff.

[peter_phan]

Derek, if you decide to go with the Rebel 2000, you might want to consider the Rebel K2, which is the update to the Rebel 2000. The single best reason to consider the K2 is that the focus spots light up with a red dot on the viewfinder to indicate which of the 7 focus spots is focused. On the Rebel 2000, it is indicated on the LCD just below the viewfinder screen, but it is a little nicer to have it on the actual viewfinder screen. It also helps to see which focus point the camera is focused on when it gets a little dark, or the camera is pointed at a dark object and have trouble seeing the focus points. Best of luck to you. I'm sure she'll be happy no matter what you choose.

[chuck]

Peter Phan would spring to Canon's defense regardless of where the facts lay. If facts don't favor Canon, he does not hesitate before creating his own facts: If truth doesn't favor Canon, he would galdly spin his own half truth. For example:<p><p>

"The Rebel 2000 has manual film speed DX override...This also allows you to push film...but on the N75 you won't be able to do that. " <p> Perhaps the concept of pushing film is a little hazing in Peter's mind. If you wish to shoot film with the intention of pushing it 1 stop during development, all you have to do it to set exposure compensation by -1 stop. N75 offers a liberal selection of exposure compensation options, and would let you push or pull to your heart's content and your film's maximum sufference. Setting exposure compensation in anticipation of pushing requires precisely the same consideration and same control manipulation as setting film speed to do the same. But rest assured that when it is the same, in Peter's mind Canon's half of the same is still better.<p><p>

"The Rebel 2000 accepts a cable release, while the N75 does not...The cable release allows you to activate autofocus and metering, trip the shutter, and do long-exposure bulb photography. " <p> True, cable releases lets you do that, and true, N70 does not accept cable release. But wireless remote releases, costing roughly the same, also lets you do all those things, and do them while standing much further away, and N75 accepts such a wireless release.<p>

<p>

"The Rebel 2000 does high-speed flash sync...while the N75 does not...it's a great feature to have that allows you to not be limited by the camera's slow 1/90th flash sync speed." <p> True, Canon has it and Nikon doesn't. But Canon bought this feature at the expense of exclusive reliance on monitor preflash for flash control, and no ability to monitor the main flash in real time, like all Nikon could. Also, perhaps Peter could instantly recall the last occassion when he found high-speed sync useful? And might we be honored with a couple of non-contrived examples of the great results that followed?<p><p>

"The Rebel 2000 is also compatible with Canon's wireless TTL flash system. If you have a 550EX flash or an ST-E2 wireless transmitter, you can fire one or mutliple flashes wirelessly...Needless to say, the N75 can't do wireless TTL flash. " <p>

Peter needn't have said it because it is not true. N75 can fire one or mutliple flashes wirelessly, as can every Nikon autofocus body, and a couple from before the era of autofocus, such as F3, FE-2, FA. And not one of them requires an separatly purchased wireless transmitter to do so. Also, Nikon has flashes units, the SB-80DX, SB-50DX, and SB-30, and SB-800, that would support wireless TTL flash.

<p>

 

 

.

[manfred_sadlowski]

It is not true that F75 doensn't accept a remote control, it has an optional wireless control, which is a better thing, and it is cheap.

 

Spotmeter is the most reliable and useful way of metering if you know what are you doing, Canon's partial metering is indeed a big spotmeter which lacks Nikon's precision.

 

Nikon's distance based flash system can be 'tricked' when the flash head is tilted and bounced, and let me tell what happens then: it actually functions exactly like a Canon flash, with a similar preflash metering but without distance parameter. This kind of metering is fooled when the subject is not medium gray, be it Nikon or Canon. So with Nikon you get EQUAL exposure precision with Canon when the flash is tilted or bounced, and much better precision when it is not. And bounce flash is not an option if you are shooting outside, or if ceiling-walls are colored, or when they are far (flash power will be greatly reduced when bouncing), therefore it is not the best way of using a flash.

 

BTW, on-body flash of the both cameras can neither be tilted nor bounced.

 

Nikon's new flash system is a refinement over previous that includes FE-Lock and more genuine features; with the new I-TTL Nikon has all the flash features that Canon has and more, but not vice versa. Canon has to do some homework in the flash department, no?

 

ISO override can be made with exposure compensation as well so not much a point. With F75 you can do 3 stops exposure compensation, with Rebel only 2.

 

Also F75 meters and autofocuses in low light better than Rebel, it can do autofocus and metering as low as -1 EV.

[peter_phan]

Certainly, there are ways around every limitation. But it is always help to understand what those limitations are. And if you can get equipment that doesn't have those limitations, then all the better.

<p>

Someone mentioned the utility of FP flash. While I agree that for many high-end users with better bodies that have faster flash sync speeds, high-speed flash sync speed isn't as critical. But when your flash sync is only 1/90th of a second, having high-speed flash sync to get you up to 1/125 or 1/250 (the flash sync of higher-end cameras) is really helpful. Remember that you can turn high-speed sync off. And even when it is on, it only kicks in when the shutter is faster than 1/90. So you have nothing to lose and much to gain. Besides, you aren't paying anything more for it. It comes free. Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of it?

<p>

Someone also mentioned the cable release. Cable release and remote release cost the same. The Rebel 2000 takes a cable release and a remote release, so you have a choice of which you prefer. On the N75, you don't have a choice. With a cable release, you can activate autofocus, metering, and do bulb exposures. You have a choice with the Rebel 2000. So I don't know what the problem there is either. Choice is good.

<p>

Someone also mentioned exposure compensation for use with resetting the film speed. Yes, you can do this as a work-around. But frankly, I think the exposure compensation function should be reserved for exposure compensation. It makes thing simpler. For example, let's say you want to shoot Velvia 50 not at ISO 50, but at ISO 40 which most Velvia shooters use it at. With exposure compensation it only goes by 1/2 stops. But ISO 40 is 1/3 stop. The same goes for shooting films like Ilford XP2 400, which is prefered at ISO 320 or 250. You can set that those on the Rebel 2000, but you have to go by 1/2 stops with the exposure compensation. Now combine that with actual exposure compensation when you shoot. Let's way you are metering off of white snow or a bride's white wedding gown. So you add 2 stops exposure compensation on the camera. But you have to subtract that from the exposure compensation you have already set for the film ISO change. Or do you need to add, instead of subtract? And if you need to add to an already set + 1/2 stop exposure compensation for the film, now you have exceeded the +2 stop exposure compensation limit on the exposure compensation scale. So you see, it just gets complicated when you use the exposure compensation scale for both the film speed change AND the exposure compensation change. Besides, film speed override is free on the Rebel 2000, so I don't know why anyone would not want it. It just makes things so much EASIER!

<p>

Someone mentioned Nikon's new flash refinements that borrow from the Canon E-TTL flash system. Well, that's great, but none of Nikon's current bodies will benefit from those refinements. Only Nikon's new $3200 digital D2H body will be able to take advantage of these new "refinements". It has no relevance to the N75. But those features are available to the Rebel 2000 right now! So I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to take advantage of those capabilities. Again, it comes with the system.

<p>

Someone also mentioned spot meter versus partial meter. Spot meters can be very unforgiving of errors or careless technique, and can get you into more trouble than help you if you are not very skilled. A partial meter is much more forgiving, and delivers extremely good results. And when you get very advanced, it remains really all you need. I have shot for years with a partial meter with absolutely no problems whatsoever. Learn good metering skills, and either would be fine. Remember that for some of the best photographers in the world, and some of the best photography in the world, a simple center-weighted meter is all they really needed.

<p>

What else is there? Oh yes, the multiple wireless thing. Well, any camera system can do multiple wireless slave flash. But it is all manual flash. Canon's wireless flash is TTL flash. Nikon's new I-TTL flash system allows TTL wireless flash, but none of Nikon's current flashes do. By the way, here's a great article on Canon E-TTL flash, with lots of sample images and information. <a href="http://eosseries.ifrance.com/eosseries/en/flashwork/flashwork_intro.html">Canon Flash</a>. I think Nikon's new flash system looks very promising, but this will only apply to future Nikon bodies.

<p>

Derek, like some said earlier, both systems are great. But you get more bang for your buck with the Canon stuff. Happy shooting!

 

 

 

 

 

[umd]

You don't stop even when your ignorance is slammed on the face Peter, do you? And keep digging even when you are in the bottom of the pit. You still try to make arguments on minute things, and out of thin air.

If you look back Peter's posting history you can see he what he is, he claims to be a pro doing weddings etc and even claiming having written a book on photography, but in his earlier postings it is obvious he is a naive teenager.

 

He has been a poster in www.dpreview.com's forums and was impersonating a pro switched from Nikon; but seems like he is recently banned from that community for trolling. He has an immediate effect of degrading any on going argument with his childish arguments for Canon propaganda. And here is an example what he usually gets as answer:

 

"You're constantly stepping in here to ensure that no imagined anti Canon slight is unchallenged. If Canon made women's underwear, you'd be wearing it and telling us how Nikon is going to go bankrupt because they don't have any."

[kelly_flanigan1]

I guess a vintage 35mm 1930's Canon rangefinder with its stock Nikkor lens would get all posters on this thread upset! :)

[peter_phan]

Umit, you seem very angry and I don't have the faintest idea why. You also say erroneous things about me, and I don't know where that comes from either. I have done paid wedding photography, but only as a hobby. And I don't know why you say I have written a book on photography, but I have contributed photos to several books. One of those books is here: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967945216/qid=1068494502/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-7539089-3319240?v=glance&n=507846">Temecula Wine Country</a>. And by this time next year, there should be at least three other books featuring some of my photography. I am by no means a professional photographer, nor have I ever claimed to be. I am just an avid hobbiest who has the good fortune to work with some great people and publishers.

<p>

Both the Nikon and the Canon are good cameras. But the Canon system offers more value for the reasons I mentioned above. If you have something constructive to contribute, by all means, please do. But unfounded personal attacks are not helpful or welcomed.

<p>

Happy shooting!

[umd]

See <a href=http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6153210>Troll Hall of Fame</a>.

[peter_phan]

I know Jonathan. We have personal disagreements. Oftentimes, people take their brand loyalties very personally, as if it is a religion. And of course, religious discussions can get a bit testy. In the end, it's just camera equipment. Sometimes, when people have nothing constructive to contribute, they resort to personal attacks. It's unfortunate, because it totally undermines objective, critical discourse. All you can do is ignore them.

 

By the way, you are free to contribute your own constructive comments to the question posed by derek bradley. It seems you have not done so yet.

 

Happy shooting!

[umd]

Not just the guy named Jonathan, Peter but the vast majority if you read entire thread. You seem to have enjoying some kind of negative personal acceptance, which isn't healthy.

[chuck___3]

"Oftentimes, people take their brand loyalties very personally, as if it is a religion. "-Peter Phan<p>

And let us all give Peter a round of applause for giving such an amazingly realistic demonstration of the said behavior. Otherwise, heaven forbid, we might mistake something else for it in the future.