Prices of LF/ULF

[steve_hamley]

Folks,

 

A recent thread brought responses related to the cost of ULF

cameras, particularly the Ebony. Specifically, several people

commented on the "outrageous" prices of the Ebony cameras and others

have made similar comments on the 4x5 and 8x10 cameras.

 

Granted good LF and ULF cameras are expensive, especially for high

end cameras. But are the Ebony cameras unreasonably priced? I did a

little web research.

 

Sinar P2 8x10 Expert kit $16,886 (B&H),

Sinar P2 8x19 $11,434 (B&H),

Sinar P2 4x5 Expert Kit $11,372 (B&H),

Sinar P2 4x5 $7,684 (B&H),

Linhof Kardan GT $6,489 (B&H),

Linhof GTL $5,795 (Badger),

Arca Swiss 8x10 F-metric Classic $4,475 (Badger),

Wisner 20 x 24 $9,000 (wisner.com),

Ebony 8x10's $4,295 - $8,595 SV810 folder at $6,695 (Badger),

Ebony 11x14 $10,200 (Badger)

 

It appears that the Ebony cameras are priced similarly to other high

end cameras. Are there cheaper cameras? Yes. Are they expensive? Yes

they are! But most others are priced similarly and some are more.

Additionally, few manufacturers are even willing to make a ULF

camera anymore.

 

If I scale the Ebony to 16 x 20 using the same scale of the Sinar P2

going from 4x5 to 8x10, then I get $15,200. This is just speculation

of course, but most manufacturers seem to have a similar percentage

increase in cost with area.

 

So why do people think the Ebony is outrageously priced but not

Linhof or Sinar? Just a rhetorical question, I learned a long time

ago that judgements of worth say more about the individual's values

than the widget.

 

Thanks!

 

Steve

[john_cook1]

I expect that prices in this area have as much to do with sales volume as quality. Any engineer will tell you that it costs a million dollars to design and manufacture a fifty-cent plastic comb. The reason they can sell for fifty cents is that at least two million are sold. If fewer were sold, the per-unit cost and retail price would necessarily be higher.

 

Since precious few LF units are sold, they must sell for precious money.

 

And then there�s Sinar. The Swiss/US dollar exchange rate has always been way out of whack, putting their prices way out in la-la-land. A friend took a vacation trip to Switzerland several years ago. A rather modest restaurant charged him forty dollars for a shrimp cocktail appetizer. I believe it is common knowledge that it is impossible to shoot professionally in the US with high-end Sinar equipment and be able to show a profit.

[jerald_brodkey]

You are comparing apples and oranges. The ebonys are wooden field

cameras. Most of the others are metal, monorails built to high tolerances for use in a studio. They have geared movements that can be

adjusted in millimeters. The Canham 11X14 is only $6000 and I doubt

the ebony is $4000 better.

[jonathan brewer]

Once you get past $500, it's all expensive, photography is not cheap, now I will not be getting a $20,000.00 camera any time soon, but there is somebody somewhere who is saying the same thing about the money I spent on my Toyo 810MII, in fact there was a post where they did say it.

 

There were probably some photographers reading and/or participating in the recent ULF Ebony thread who scoffed at the idea of an idividual considering buying a $20K camera, among those individuals I would venture that they're are some who, if they added up the cost of their cameras, strobe equipement, lenses, stands, softboxes, camera gear bought and sold in the past, films and other expedables, plus the cost of the computer gear they're typing these threads on would come up with what amounted to a fortune.

 

Past $500.00, since everything is relative, you could make a case for any camera costing more than that amount to be a ridiculous purchase. Most serious photographers Pro and Amateur, are on a quest for perfection, for the best work, the biggest negative, the sharpest lens, and in a sense there is a kind of reverse denial going on when somebody, myself included can claim that we found a deal on a particular lens for $750.00 that sells everywhere else for $1500.00.

 

I would be curious about the total amount of money spent on photography particularly by some of the folks who commented on the ULF Ebony thread and some the regular contributers of both forums from day one to the present, a would bet that the amount for more than a couple of dozen would approach 30, 40, 50 grand, and not just for the working pros.

 

I based this assumption on reading all these threads on the forum and what people say they've bought, one guy who says he is not a pro and who participated in the ULF Ebony thread, scoffed at the idea of the purchase of a $20,000, has purchased quite a bit more than this amount per his posts in cameras, tripods, heads, and so forth.

 

I'm not buying a $20,000 camera, but for me and a lot of other folks it all adds up, I think if everybody around here were to add up what they have actually spent of photography from the beginning they would be shocked. One year after my wife did the taxes she mentioned what I had spent on purchases that year, I was shocked, yes it would make an interesting thread to have everybody come clean about what they've spent, I would guess that the range would be from $200.00 to xxxxx,xx.

 

One telling comment that I found stunning was the comment on the ULF Ebony thread that these ULF cameras are on backorder, there seem to be a number of folks who are buying these cameras, is it ridiculous, hey, a guy who loves cars may sink money into a car that he should using to spray his house for termites, a guy who loves boats may sink all his discretionary income into his boat, I know from comments I've read here that like me with my wife there are folks here who had a diaglogue with their wife about purchases, a case could be made that the pursuit of the ultimate by the obsessed describes a hell of a lot us not just somebody considering the purchase of a $20,000 camera.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

I agree with jerald, another point, you priced the Wisner 20x24 at $9000, presumably an Ebony 20x24 would be past the $20000 price tag if the prices of the 11x14 and the 7x17 are any indication. These cameras are alrady at $19000 so I would imagine a 20x24 would be close to the $30000 range. As the saying goes, if you have to ask the price you can't afford it.

 

I really dont see what the big deal is, I posted the price in the other thread merely to let Francis know that the likelyhood of a direct answer was very slim, as these are very, very expensive cameras. OTOH if I had money to throw away, would I get one? absolutely, there is certain satisfaction in having a beautiful tool, but is just that, a personal satisfaction and I know that an Ebony camera of this size does not do the job that much better than my 75 year old Korona. At least not $20000 better.

[jonathan brewer]

You steered the thread regarding the ULF toward the issue of cost effectiveness/performance, he's made it clear that he doesn't care, so it isn't a matter of big deal, it's no deal at all.

 

A work of Art valued as priceless can consist of a few dollars in stretched canvas and pigments, the 'value' we give this 'work of Art' is in our heads, a perception of something on the canvas that makes it worth more than its components, antique furniture sell for as much as a quarter million dollars, you may be talking about a couple of hundred dollars of wood, the 'perception' of it's value as a work of art valued at $250,000.00 is in the minds of some people because of how it joined and finished, performance is of course only one of the things considered by someone who purchase something, people can pay big money for intangibles, there may in fact not be that much difference in the performance of a $20,000.00 camera and a Korona or that much of a difference between the Korona and a Gandolfi.

 

Art/functional art has almost never been cost effective, and of course the bottom line is which pocket the money is sitting in, end of story.

[steve_hamley]

Folks,

 

Interesting comments all. I agree with a lot of Jonathan's comments, especially that once you get above 8x10 everything gets more expensive to the point that cost becomes perhaps less relevant than with smaller formats. If you can afford $6,000, you can probably afford $10,000 if you really want. As a Harley-riding friend once put it, "It's only money, you'll earn more."

 

I anticipated Jerald's apples and oranges comment and thought about prior to the post. It isn't clear to me that a high end metal studio camera is worth any more or less than a high end wooden field camera. The fact that they are different doesn't necessarily seem relevant to cost - a high end "35mm" digital can go $9,000, and it's mostly plastic.

 

Certainly Ebony's cost seems to escalate more dramatically in the sizes beyond 8x10 compared to their very few competitors, but I don't remember seeing any comments from those that have owned and used an Ebony that they didn't think their cameras were worth the price. Anyone with an Ebony over 8x10 out there and care to comment?

 

Thanks!

 

Steve

[cxc]

Actually, I personally have always thought that Sinar was more overpriced than Ebony. New, that is. However, within the last few months the used prices (e.g. on the 'Bay) have plummeted, and supply skyrocketed, till I was able to pick up a decent Sinar P for $810.

 

I doubt that Sinar will be able to continue manufacturing non-digital equipment maintaining their current pricing structure.

[emile_de_leon10]

I think the price differences between the different wooden camera companies are largly an illusion. Kind of like the illusionary price difference between what you would charge a customer for a B&W 5x7 print vs an 11x14 print of the same neg. If you really examine the actual cost of a couple of lbs of ebony and titanium and the costs associated with other woods and metals etc. from the other companies, I think there would be a little difference perhaps.... but.... the actual difference between a $4000.00 Wisner 12x20, and a $16,000.00 Ebony 12x20??Thats $12,000.00!So it must be the labor costs that must make the real difference in pricing...perhaps;) So we come to the $12,000.00 question...are you willing to pay the price for a really nice Ebony or save on something else that will do pretty much the same thing?And...BTW it is ridiculous to compare pricing between a metal Linhof etc. and a wooden Ebony.They are different animals entirely. I also think that if the Chinese Shenhao company starts to expand their camera line to include ULF, you might see the Ebony company get more competitive in a pricing sense. Shenhao's ebony/titanium 8x10 looks pretty fine, and labor is cheap in China and quite excellent too for handmade goods. Probably the only reason that the Shenhao 8x10 is the high price it is is because of the exaulted price of the Ebony. If I were Ebony I would keep a close eye on Shenhao and bring out a less expensive 8x10 to ULF line. Also, I'm a drummer and am thinking about buying a new drum set. For comparason purposes the exact same wood Gretch drum set assembled overseas.. is priced more than 50% savings off the price of the exact same set assembled in the US. I don't have to tell you which one I'm going to purchase. If Shehao comes out with a $2500 to $3000.00 ULF line I predict in 3 years they will dominate the ULF market.

[richard_rau]

This just goes to show that everything is relative when it comes

to ULF! To paraphrase the Lincoln quote, and to address why

this forum is so valuable to the opinions of all!

 

�You can please some of the people all of the time, you can

even please all of the people some of the time, BUT you can

never please all of the people all of the time!�

 

I think PT Barnum may have said basically the same thing only

substituted the word "fool" for "please"... for this thread...I say

take your pick!

[ed_candland1]

Emile,

 

That's a very good point and analogy. One that I have thought about myself.

[john_gerndt1]

Right about in the middle of this thread Jonathan Brewer got it right when he said, ��people can pay big money for intangibles�� Too bad there is so much bluster around this gem in the middle of this dime store thread. Photography is, and will forever be, about making images; it is NOT about equipment. Price of equipment is even less relevant. Use what you�ve got and let�s talk about making the best of that. Please�

 

John