Reflection on Independence Day

[._._z]

Several versions of this have been passed around the internet for years, and it is a favorite

of conservative radio commentators in the USA.

 

The well-regarded urban legends site at snopes.com wrote on this subject two years ago at

http://www.snopes.com/glurge/declare.htm providing an analysis which asserts that the

"article attempts to commemorate them with a train of glurge that jumps the track of truth

at the very beginning and finally pulls into station bearing a simplified version of history in

which all the incongruities that get in the way of a good story are glossed over."

 

Someone else put up a page to specifically debunk the piece at http://home.nycap.rr.com/

elbrecht/signers/signerindex.html

 

Surprise, surprise: it's not necessarily true if you find it on the internet!

[._._z]

One more -- (Slate Magazine) "The Urban Legend That Could" -- http://slate.msn.com/

toolbar.aspx?action=print&id=1005636

[Alex_Es]

Interesting historical information; sources no doubt easily found on

the internet.

 

But here is what is interesting. No moderater screaming "This is a

Leica forum!" followed by a warning to knock off the political talk

or this would be sent directly to the memory hole.

 

When we had the big arguments about poltical discussions in this

forum before the invasion of Iraq I asked whether the problem was

political opinion or the kinds of political opinions expressed. I

sensed that the problem was that antiwar views were not welcomed in

this forum by our overseer and that that was the problem.

 

So hello moderaters, what do you think of all of this?

 

Meanwhile I'll toss in my two cents on this matter.

 

To begin with, I found Orwell's Notes on Nationalism a liberation.

He differentiated between Nationalism and Patriotism. Patriotism is

organic he said and inoffensive and nationalism invariably demands

the subjegation of the individual to the nation state. This was a

liberation (I was young, very young when I first read this essay)

because it showed me I could love my country and not have to swallow

the stupid flag waving rubbish I had been force fed from childhood.

To this day standard so-called patriotic songs make me want to throw

up. I find they offend what I do love about America--the wide

spaces, the warmth and openness of the people, the San Francisco Bay

Area, the universities, and, a lot of small things that are really

impossible to discuss here in so short a space.

 

The idiotic idea that Americans have a monopoly on freedom or are

even the "freest" people in the world is something I could never

accept--and I find people who mouth this sort of mindless stuff

beyond my understanding.

 

I love my country enough to dare say this: Moral pollution from the

likes of Rush Lumpbag, George W. Bush and Company, Milton Friendman,

Christian fundamentalists, the National Review and Fox TV are the

biggest problems facing this country. These people mouth the usual

cliches about freedom in America but are the first to cheer when our

freedoms are taken away in the name of "Patriotism."

 

On this July 4th I'd like to remind you that the rational that

justified the US-led invasion of Iraq--that it was an clear and

present danger--was based on a pack of lies. How do you flag wavers

out there feel about your government fibbing to you?

 

I love my country enough to say this: Americans are fed "Patriotism"

and ripped off in terms of having national health insurance and even

moderately okay public transportation. If you want see a free

country where social welfare is at least okay go to Canada.

 

Something else: Look up Fredrick Douglass's essay on celebrating

July 4th. He argued that African-Americans have nothing to celebrate

because the freedom business had little to do with them. Consider

that for most of this country's history it was a land of oppression

for African-Americans.

 

And to keep this post relevant to Leica photography let me ask this

question. Can Americans who supported and support the Bush-Blair

invasion of Iraq in good conscience be Leica photographers? Don't

forget that Germany and most of the German people were opposed to

that evil war--which is still going on.

[paulr]

Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race." -Albert Einstein

[john_h_osterholm]

So Alex, would you be happy if the people mentioned in your list would simply disappear? And would you prefer a nation filled with people expressing only YOUR views and others from the Left with no room for bipartisnship? We do have a thing called election day, and maybe you will get your chance. I do find people who would banish conservative talk radio and TV and replace it with strictly NPR to be a bit dangerous. There are plenty of choices to listen to and watch as it is. In my opinion, the people on the Left are well served as it is in the various media.

[Spearhead]

Wouldn't it be better to quote from a historian who has researched the facts rather than quote some phony stuff?

 

And where is Rush Limbaugh's equivalent quote for the Emancipation Proclamation, or the Civil War, or the end of segregation?

 

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[Alex_Es]

It would have been nice if Hitler and the Nazis simply disappeared. It would be absolutely wonderful if the neocons, the George F. Wills, Rush Lumpbags and Bush and his ilk disappeared. It would be wonderful if the corpse that beat Ashcroft in an election suddenly appeared like the statue at the end of Don Giovanni and carried him straight to hell.

 

Of course in real life people like Hitler and the Nazis and Bush and the neocons don't magically disappear; or if they do they are replaced by others of the same stripe. Unfortunately, all that can be done to neutralize people like that is open and rational debate.

 

Unfortunately you tend to win rational debates after the fact. In retrospect the people who in the 30s said Hitler was pond scum were proven right. Eventually people will look back on this point in history as a black mark on America just as the McCarthy Era is seen as a black mark on our legacy. Somehow I hope Bush will not do any more damage to our rights and to the lives of other people before he is stopped.

 

There is one way to make Bush and Company disappear. Vote the jerk out of office. Any Democrat for President is my slogan for our time. No matter how awful that Democrat might be he or she won't be Bush. This guy has got to be voted out of office. If we give him a mandate through an election we can kiss off America as we have known it. The any Democrat might not be much better than Bush but he or she will know that he or she is in office because we have voted him or her in by voting against Bush as the French voted against Le Pen by voting for Chirac.

[jay bee]

Harvey - Independence Day doesn't celebrate war, it marks the occassion of our declaring indepedence from Britain. The red coats pushed the war issue as much as anyone.

 

To those who choose to accentuate the negative have a happy day.

[jay bee]

Alex are you on crack comparing Bush to Hitler and Nazis?

[jack_lo_..._t_o]

This ain't on topic, kids.Of course the initial post wasn't either. It's amazing how long a thread will go on if there's political content. Ask a Leicaholic if he ever takes candid pictures of his friends and whaddaya get? Nuttin'! But quote Rush Limbaugh's grandpappy and the exchanges go on for days.

[paulr]

"Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race." -Albert Einstein

[kevin m.]

Well said, Alex. All those thinking 'Bush' and 'Democracy' have anything to do with one another are either kidding you intentionally, or themselves through self-delusion. It seems that all that's necessary to maintain the illusion of democracy for those folks is to wave a big flag and crank up the volume on our new, defacto national anthem, "God Bless the U.S.A.."

 

I don't think enough Americans have wised up to the sad fact that government at the Federal level has been hijacked by the Republican party. It's a naked grab for power and plunder and it's happening in broad daylight. I think the American tendency to take people at their word is hurting us in this case; just because George W. Bush mounts a podium and spouts shibboleths like "Freedom" and "Democracy" and wraps his every action in the Stars and Stripes doesn't mean a damned thing. He's a pirate whose stated aim is to destroy the Federal government, but only after he's raided the treasury and shared the spoils with his friends and benefactors.

 

The Republicans, in their cynicism, would like us all to believe that "government is bad," but for better of worse, the goverment is us. It's ours. What kind of government it should be is a valid question, but championing its disappearance will only allow those with bad intent to rob us at will. A 'free market' by any other name, I suppose.

[kevin m.]

"This ain't on topic, kids."

 

So what? These are confusing times we live in, and if a little of that spills over onto this forum, well that's totally understandable. If discussions such as these bother you, your escape is only a mouse click away.

[Alex_Es]

Speaking about making people disappear.

 

I recall how tightly we were regulated before Bush's war when our discussions regarding photography turned poltical. First came the warning, like a Nazi loudspeaker: This is a Leica forum; cease your political discussions or out you go. Then out went the thread, brilliant photos and all. I demanded a little honesty from our moderaters: If they did not like antiwar views and liberal or Left ideas in this forum--if this forum was under the control of a conservative administration--those people in charge could give us fair warning. But no, we got a lot of hypocritical rubbish about how this is a Leica form and therefore political discussions were forbidden. I even purposely submitted a photo critique of a political poster for official inspection for correct thought according to the rules. I also argued then that there were plenty of political threads that were allowed to run that had nothing to do with Leica photography because whoever was moderating us agreed with whatever sentiments were expressed.

 

This thread is a perfect example. The lead posting, however interesting, had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Leica photography. The only Leica reference so far in this discussion was made above by me--a real stickler for the rules of engagement.

 

So can you be a Bushy "patriot" and still buy and use Leica stuff considering the German government and the majority of the German people opposed Bush's war on Iraq? I opposed that war so I'm using my Leica stuff with a clear conscience.

[jay bee]

Its funny, I never thought our country was as villanous during the dark days of Clinton as may left wingers feel now that the shoe is on the other foot. Talk about lying to the American public - Clinton was impeached yet he and his wife continue to hold sway over the democratic party. Still and all, I celebrated our country, its greatness and the opportunity that it provided my grandfather when he came over 90 years ago to plant a seed that became my family tree here in the US throughout the 1990's.

 

Again, it appears that the left is so utterly frustrated and focused on the negatives that they can't see the forest for the trees. But talk about choice - y'all can leave any time because the current winds of change are here to stay. Public healthcare, transportation, etc - these are somehow "rights"? The attempted redistribution of wealth and penalies against people who make money and heaven forbid ascribe to a traditional family make-up (read the marraige penalty in the current tax code) is more offensive than anything currently happening in government.

 

The fact that Bush is jumping on the national healthcare bandwagon is very disconcerting to someone like myself, a 30 something suburban professional who forsees the road to ruin that social security, medicare, et al is leading our country. I live in a dual income household because its necessitated to make ends meet and provide for my 2 little girls when the government makes a grab for as much as they do. This country was built on opportunity, boot strapping and entrepreneurship - not hand-outs and regime building in the federal buearacracy.

 

But again the 4th is about celebrating. Apparently there are many who are so incensed by the fact that their point of view (read liberal/leftists) has been repudiated in the last 2 election cycles ('00 and '02) that they no longer see the greatness of our country. If that constitutes blind patriotism and small mindedness, I'll take that any day over the misery of people like Alex and Harvey.

[ray .]

Alex, with all due respect, if you were to go by strict justice you wouldn't be able to function in the world and you'd need to kill yourself out of guilt.

 

Suffice to say this topic was not on topic, and Rush Limbaugh runs a huge propaganda machine based on a radio show not allowing opposing viewpoints, listened to religiously by millions.

 

I don't think a Democrat, "no matter how awful", is the answer though.

[Alex_Es]

Tell me John,

 

Does it at all bother you that the reasons Bush gave for his war on Iraq turned out to be fabrications?

 

Also:

 

You know that the US is the only major industrialized country without national health insurance? You will know what that means when you get seriously ill and find you do not have the cash to pay off the doctors and the drug companies. Check out what medicines cost in Canada in comparrison to what they cost in the US.

 

National health insurance a hand out? Not quite. We have national health insurance here in Japan. Let me tell you that my life and my bank account have been saved a few times by the public health care I get here. Were I in the US the dental complication I had in 1987, the glandular infection I had in 1999 and the pneumonia I had this year would have wiped me out financially. I'd be paying off doctors right now instead of talking about Leica equipment. A former Amrerican conservative living in France, writing about his battle with cancer, said a Socialist is a conservative who has had a serious illness under a system that provides low cost national health care. Forgot the source, but having gotten ill in France in December I can say a few very kind words for that system. (Gads, talk about my winter of discontent! I'm in the pink of health right now if anyone is interested.)

 

I hope, John, you don't think public transportation is a "hand out." Every major industrial nation has great or at least good public transportation (the UK being somewhat of an exception thanks to privatization). Ever ride on the Shinkansen or the TGV? If you have and your patriotic pride did not demand that the US have similar trains there really is something amiss with your patriotism, blind or not.

 

Just imagine a US with national health care, a brilliant train system from coast to coast and the right to at least a month's vaction as in France. Imagine a US that stopped spending money on military adventures and devoted all that money to the benefit of the American people.

would want that for his or her country.

 

You know, a USA like that would be a whole lot happier and a whole lot more peaceful. There would be far less crime. You'd worry less about walking around with an expensive Leica around your neck when doing available light photography at night.

[kevin m.]

Gosh, John, you Republicans can't go 2 seconds into an argument without brining up Clinton, can you. It must really sting that the man was elected twice to the office fair and square while your boy needed a nakedly partisan boost from his pals on the Supreme Court.

[Alex_Es]

Actually Ray, were I for "strict justice" I would not be calling for any Democrat for President. I have no illusions about the Democrats. This is what is called desperation, pure and simple. Sort of like taping your flash together after dropping it and needing desperately for your work. Like putting a cheapo Russian lens on your Leica after you realized that you'd only brought a body and left all your lenses at an hour before you are due to photograph a historic meeting between Putin and President Hillary Clinton. Got the idea?

 

The French re-elected Chirac not because they loved him but because they hated LePen. That is the situation we are in now. It would be nice if there was a real enlighted alternative to the Democrats and Bush but there isn't--not now and probably not in 2004. Under no circumstances must Bush get a mandate for what he has been doing to our beloved country and our Constitutional rights.

[jay bee]

Kevin - quick quiz, did your boy Bill ever get more than 50% of the popular vote?

[ray .]

This thread is going nowhere fast.

[kevin m.]

Why is it, Ray, that whenever a discussion gets a bit unruly it makes people so uncomfortable? Democracy itself is a rather untidy affair. Fascism, on the other hand, is nice and tidy. Hence its appeal, I suppose, for the conflict averse. But if all this bothers you, again, relief is only a mouse click away.

[ray .]

I'm not uncomfortable at all, Kevin. But it's obvious this has started into the typical name calling and oversimplification of facts by both sides in order to defend their biases, and not much beyond that.

 

If you check I'm the one who questioned the innocence of this thread in the first place.

[h._p.]

"I'll take that any day over the misery of people like Alex and Harvey."

 

I'm not in the least bit miserable. I'm just a little bored by a certain type of American who fails to see the massive flaws in their country, from the racist system that makes damned sure most coloured people stay in their ghettos to the rampant and vicious imperialism practiced by Bush and his band of merry lunatics.

 

The gods know that we British have bugger all to crow about on that last score - Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell are as pretty a pair of psychopaths as Dubya and Donald Rumsfeld. Their only redeeming grace is that with fewer resources they're limited to playing a subsidiary role to the Americans.

 

But miserable, me? Nope.

[kevin m.]

Harvey, I think America is trapped by its own mythology right now. It's kind of scary, actually, to live in a country where people make no distinction between their intentions and their actions. 'We are GOOD people, so we do GOOD deeds.' And if our deeds produce bad results, the results are ignored, since, conveniently, they often take place half a world away. I fear that once the results of our actions start lapping our own shores that they'll be too powerful to ignore, however.

 

Getting back to photography, if I could capture 1/10 of what I sense about this situation on a frame of film I'd die a happy photographer.