New F3HP or New FM3a ??

[charlie_fox1]

Hi Guys,

 

I know this has been discussed before in http://65.54.244.250/cgi-

bin/linkrd?

_lang=EN&lah=b18bf7a72dd10f3885a38fc3b5218a61&lat=1060381831&hm___acti

on=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ephoto%2enet

 

I am interested to have a back up manual camera for my F5 mainly for

travel, landscape, portraits & macro. I am unsure to buy a new F3HP

USD 1430 or a New FM3a 600 from B & H.

 

I like the feel, mirror-lock up, interchangeable prisms, spot meter

etc of F3, but do not like the flash system. I like the flash in FM3a

but other features are not up to the level of F3HP.

 

Just want to check your opinions & suggestions?

 

Cheers

[charlie_fox1]

The URL is http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003UaF

[Jerry_]

Not a simple way to compare. Nikon's FM3A has a good warranty, is lighter, and you can use it in 'A' mode, or fully manual. A back-up camera still in production.

 

 

The F3, very solid and in it's day, a very good pro camera is:

not very lightweight, depends on a battery to function - save 1 shutter speed, and it is no longer in production.

 

 

Your money and your decision....

[lex_jenkins]

Here's why I'd favor the F3HP:

 

1. *Very* capable AE mode for ridiculously long nighttime exposures. While it may not match something like the Olympus OM-2 or OM-4 series for making adjustments to changing light conditions throughout the duration of a long exposure, it's certainly capable of handling a basic reading. Tho' Nikon doesn't claim accuracy beyond 8 seconds I've tested it to half an hour and got excellent results under last month's full moon. Looking forward to another sessions soon.

 

According to at least one FM3A user here its AE mode poops out at 10 seconds. That's why my N6006, despite the more sophisticated matrix metering and true spot metering, isn't suitable for autoexposure with night photography.

 

The downside to the F3HP for other low light photography, especially handheld, is the dim meter readout. I prefer the red LED readout on my FM2N for low light, handheld photography. The FM3A probably wouldn't be much better than the F3HP - I've used many SLRs with match needle metering and they're next to impossible to see in low light.

 

2. The MD-4 motor drive. Nothing wrong with the MD-12 on my FM2N tho' (I believe the FM3A can take the MD-12 too). But the MD-4 is a brick and is very slightly less unpleasantly noisy when hammering out consecutive shots; the MD-12 is a bit tinny, metallic and pingy sounding.

 

3. The HP finder. Love it. Even tho' I don't wear glasses (other than for reading) the long eye relief finder is handy for all kinds of reasons, whether to minimize the risk of bumping my careful alignment on a tripod, shooting action while maintaining my peripheral vision, or when wearing sunglasses outdoors. The 100% finder makes framing my slides much more accurate. And it's a bit brighter than the FM3A finder, which ain't bad itself.

 

If flash was important to me I'd want anything other than the F3HP. I've read that the F3's TTL flash capabilities are a bit underrated but I've never had the opportunity or need to try it.

 

BTW, the F3's metering pattern is weird and takes some getting used to. It ain't spot, it ain't center weighted averaging. Plan on testing it against a white or gray card on a black background to determine the size and shape of the metering pattern. Mine is oval shaped and vertically oriented with the camera held normally. At 10 feet the pattern would cover roughly the head and upper torso of a person. Turn the camera vertically and you're metering the head and whatever's on either side - dangerous in backlit situations. Took me two or three rolls of slide film to really get comfortable with the metering pattern.

[bobar57]

FM3A, no questions asked. A couple of days ago I stoppedin a camera store,while in Downtown Miami and handldle and played a bit with an F3HP.

I really don't find a big deal on the viewfinder. Is all a problem of frame of mind...don't be claustrophobic....and is not brighter than the FM3A, Lex, they,re there hand by hand I'll say. Sure the F3HP is a brick, you can knock out any robber with it and it won't take a dent. The FM3A is metal body but I don't want to put it to the test.

[Jim_Tardio]

<i>According to at least one FM3A user here its AE mode poops out at 10 seconds.</i>

<p>

This is not true. I've made exposures upwards of 30 seconds with my FM3a in AE mode. What happens after 10 seconds, or even less, is that the exposure may not be accurate. This would be true with any camera. Although I've always been happy with the in-camera metering for extended exposures.

[lex_jenkins]

Hmm...Arnab said he got 10 seconds. Only way to test for certain is to pop on the body cap or a lens cap, fire and wait.

[david_h._hartman]

If you want the F3HP and want a new one buy it now. You can always buy a new FM3a later. This is a bird in the hand issue. The rare bird is the new F3HP.

 

Let�s play word association, OK? Here�s the first word: Regret.

[shawn_rahman]

Regret? Like in no TTL flash with the F3HP? Or max 1/90 flash synch?

 

Buy the FM3A, and forget about the 20-year old technology in the F3HP. Don't spend all that money on a new F3HP just for a backup. The FM3A is all-around a more capable camera.

[douglas_green1]

To me, it's a simple decision: What's more important to you, well thought-out and ergonomic TTL flash, or Interchangeable finders. The FM3a is far superior on flash, but the F3 offers the finders, with metering. The rest of the differences are fairly minor.

[richard_cochran]

<cite>Like in no TTL flash with the F3HP? Or max 1/60 flash synch?

</cite>

<p>

Spoken like someone who has never used an F3HP. The flash sync

is 1/80, which is admittedly slow by today's standards, but only

by a stop and a fraction. Of course the F3HP has TTL flash,

and F3-compatible TTL flash units are available inexpensively

these days.

<p>

Though I'll admit that flash isn't the F3HP's strongest suit,

it's very capable. And for everything else, it's easily

superior to the FM3a. Build quality is far better.

The HP finder is far superior. It's

got a wide array of finders, screens, backs, and other

accessories.

The MD-4 is so much nicer than the MD-12

(I own and use both), because it's more solid, quieter,

faster, with better battery life, much more jam-proof,

and offers power rewind. Though the F3's meter backlight

switch is a pain to use, at least it has one -- the

FM3a meter display isn't readable in dim light.

<p>

Hold them both, try out the viewfinders, manipulate

the controls, and wind the film advance a few times.

[bobar57]

Douglas, the FM3A has 3 differents finders. I don't see the point on more than those essentials.

Lex, I just did the experiment. I set the camera ( FM3A ) in AE mode, put the cap in the lens and pressed the relese button...after 1 minute and 20 seconds I almost got a heart attack, I thoghg something was jammed in there,even without the cap the sutter did not fired until I went to the kitchen ( well lighted ) and hear a pleasant and comforting sound...ahhhh!!!

I tried then in the outside balcony, almost pitch dark (using film 400 ASA)did the same without the cap with the 45mm 2.8 p AIS P and it topped at 25 seconds.

[bobar57]

"Douglas, the FM3A has 3 differents finders. I don't see the point on more than those essentials."

 

Whooopppsss!!! My mistake,I realized to late you were talking about FINDERS and I was thinking about VIEWFINDERS.

Note to myself: Red at least three times before posting...specially on weekend nights.

[david_h._hartman]

<em>"Buy the FM3A, and forget about the 20-year old

technology in the F3HP." --Shawn Rahman<br>

</em><br>

The technology in the FM3a (A.K.A. FE3) dates back to 1983 and

before. The only big news in the FM3a is the hybrid shutter which

was just as technically possible 20 years ago as today.<br>

<br>

I see no reason to consider F3HP v. FM3a. To me its F3HP

today and FM3a next year or whatever. If one is serious about

photography owning an F5, F3HP and an FM3a is very reasonable.

They all overlap somewhat but one does not replace the other.

[shawn_rahman]

Richard,

<P>

Actually, I rented an F3HP for a weekend immediately prior to purchasing my FM3A. And I meant to type in 1/90 synch on the F3HP, but hit the "6" on the number pad. I think the synch is 1/90 and not 1/80 like you mentioned (or 1/60 like I inadvertently did).

<P>

I admit it was not a slam dunk decision on the FM3A. I found the eye relief on the F3HP better, of course, but certainly not that great a deal. Also, I've always thought that the 100% viewfinder to be not so big a deal.

<P>

But is the F3HP built that much better than the FM3A? I could hardly tell. Sure, the size and heft of it makes it appear better, but my FM3A is built SOLID. Also, I think the metering on the FM3A is MUCH better than I remember on the F3HP.

<P>

There is no reason whatsoever that the F3HP should still be costing over $1,400 new. It should not even be HALF of that.

<P>

<I>I fixed your flash sync typo. -- SC</I>

[majid]

I had a FM3A (bought it myself), and my father gave me his F3 (not HP). I gave away

the FM3A and kept the F3, even though I would be the first to agree the FM3A is

technically superior in almost all respects.

 

Why? For the 100% coverage finder and the more robust shutter. If I need a non-

battery bound camera, I'll take my Leica M6, and I almost never use flash.

[lex_jenkins]

"There is no reason whatsoever that the F3HP should still be costing over $1,400 new. It should not even be HALF of that."

 

Yeh, that's what I say about the Leica M5. Does anybody listen to me? Nope.

 

Hey, Robert, lemme know how those long exposures turn out. Be interesting to find out if the FM3A meters accurately enough for nighttime photography in AE mode.

[arnabdas]

Looks like I need a reality check on my findings (10 sec. max in AE mode) last time. FWIW, I am using the clear matte (B?) screen. I plan to test again tonight.

 

That aside, on the current topic: F3HP vs. FM3A is a close contest. I'd probably get both if I could afford it. The F3HP spot meter in particular is a big plus.

[charlie_fox1]

Thanks for the responses so far

 

I am inclining towards F3HP at the moment as I am not a great user of flash.

 

Question to Lex

 

You got a lot of experience on F3 and longer exposures. How do you set it to meter more than 8 seconds as it is only 8sec max? Sorry for my ignorance.

 

Cheers

[Robert_Lai]

For long time exposures at night using the F3, just take it out at night and set the shutter speed to "A", for automatic exposure. That's it. The camera will show "8-" (meaning the shutter speed exceeds 8 seconds), and start timing from there. It can't tell you what that speed is going to be. Lex and I have discussed this issue extensively. He's gotten somewhere over 30 minutes. I fell asleep when I tried this at night, and my guess is somewhere between 45 minutes to 1 hour.<p>The alternatives on the shutter speed dial, for manual photography diehards are the "B" AND "T" settings.

[douglas_green1]

FYI, there IS a build quality difference. The F3 (and the other pro F-series bodies) are designed and built to achieve an MTBF of 100,000 shutter cycles. The FM3a, FM2n, FE-2, etc. were designed & built to achieve an MTBF of 25,000 shutter cycles, although in practice, they may actually be somewhat better than this. Consumer bodies like the N65 are designed and built to achieve an MTBF of 10,000 shutter cycles.

[bobar57]

Lex, I'll need to try again(maybe tomorrow)in a more controlled and data-recorded test.Tonight I just shooted a blank with the cap on and another 1' aprox. from the wall of the balcony in almost completelly dark. First one never triger the shutter untill I took off the cap AND moved the camera to a more lit area ( the kitcken), the secon took 25 seconds. But this got me interested, I'll try tomorrow.

Do you have any recomendation in particular? I have never done this.

[arnabdas]

Unlike the Oly OM2/OM4 or Pentax LX, the ambient light metering in AE mode on the FM3A is *not* done in real time/off-the-film, is my understanding correct? The FM3A meter is built into the viewfinder and is active until the time the mirror flips up.

 

In that case, changes in ambient lighting while the mirror is up should not have any effect on AE timings of the FM3a?

 

Not sure if I explained properly, I'm pretty confused myself ...

[gary_frost1]

I have an FE2 that meters out to several minutes 'accurately'.

(reciprocity is the major factor here except for Provia, etc)

I don't use this capability much because there is no way to tell

how long the camera wants to expose vs. how long I want the exposure.

I would replace it with the FM3a if it ever gives up the ghost.

*all manual shutter control without a battery. *1/250 synch. *current production.

*Analog meter. This is a big deal for me. I like to see instantly

exactly how far/how much light. I don't like the readout of an

LCD display for a meter. If the light is too dim to see the meter,

I'm likely using other methods to determine exposure anyway.

(though a light in the finder would be nice, it might cause problems

with metering in such low light) The FM3 meter only shows out to 1 sec

vs. the FE2 to 8 sec. I might miss that.

[lex_jenkins]

Charlie, yup, pretty much what Robert said. I plop the F3HP in Auto mode, fire away, go have a glass of wine, wait for the camera to finish its business.

 

Here's the previous thread that covers it pretty thoroughly:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005VUZ

 

Arnab, while the OM-2/4 may have a technical edge in metering over the F3 I'm not sure this translates into a real world advantage for my purposes. If I were incorporating TTL flash along with long duration exposures; or using extremely slow film under skies that changed unpredictably from overcast to clear; sure, the ability of the OM auto metering to adjust on the fly might be of some advantage.

 

However in my tests last month under a full moon and in downtown Fort Worth under streetlights, I don't see how a more sophisticated metering system would have any advantage. The most important factor is that the F3 is capable of determining an accurate exposure (not factoring in reciprocity - that's still the photographer's job) up to 30 minutes. It might even go longer, I just haven't had the opportunity to test it beyond half an hour.

 

For the nighttime painting with light technique, using either continuous light or flash, sure, the OM-2/4 would indeed hold an edge over the F3 (and, presumably, the FM3A). I don't use that technique because, frankly, too many other folks are already doing it so well.

 

It's getting more and more difficult to carve out a creative niche in this damned craft! There are way too many talented photographers out there who all need to have their fingers broken and give the rest of us a chance to catch up.