richard thompson www.fotoz Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Woke up this morning looking at the wider angle (no pun intended)... I bought a 10D a few months ago. I am still VERY VERY pleased with it. I'm certainly not going to sell it for an EOS300D now. However, I'm upset my 10D won't accept EF-S lenses. OK, they might not be the best quality with a cheapo plastic kit EF-S lens, but still, 18mm is possible (I know you can take 8mm fish eye shots and correct in photoshop for distortion - but thats a pain). Ive got this feeling that the digital user market is going to be split permanently (well for the next 5 years anyway). Those who can afford full frame marketed to the professionals who NEED the quality, and con/prosumers who cant afford fullframe, but can afford this new format of throwing a few EF-S lenses in to complement their existing EF aresnal. Both groups have access to a 1x focal length system - just one is better quality than the other. They will carry on with the EF too - for film users, pro full frame digital users, and EF-S users who *want* the 1.6x magnification. I predict that the sucessor to the 10D - I'm going to call it the 8D for arguments sake, will be EF-S and EF compatible, of the build and feature quality of the 10D and with 8 megapixels. So '1x focal lenth' and hence wide angles will be available to the consumer and prosumer as already available to the pro with full frame. There will be midrange or 'L' EF-S lenses within 12 months. Its all about selling cameras to the different markets after all. Canon arn't going to invest hundreds of millions of $ into making full frame sensors affordable if consumers and prosumers (the bulk of their market) are happy with a EF-S style solution. What worries me is when there is an EOS 8D (see definition above) in 12 months time, the second hand market of 10D, 60D and 30D will fall through the floor as the new generation of EF-S compatible systems offer con/prosumers so much much more. We'll all be doing exactly what Canon want us to do. Get our credit cards out AGAIN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard thompson www.fotoz Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 Actually, I think the D30's second hand value will fall through the floor next month, not on release of this future '8D'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakim_peled1 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 >> "Ive got this feeling that the digital user market is going to be split permanently (well for the next 5 years anyway)". What I like is the proximity of the words "permanently" and "for the next 5 years". And I still think that Canon should have produced an EF version of the Sigma 15-30 instead of inventing a new lens mount. Happy shooting , Yakim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_rubinstein___mancheste Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 They did Yakim, it's called the 17-40L. If anyone wants a consumer version then the 20-35USM ain't that bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john clark Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Isn't the EF-S lens we're talking about here a regular 18mm+ lens, but with consumer build and a poky-into-the-camera rear element? I didn't read it as a lens offering an '18mm field of view' (due to focal length 'crop' factor of 1.6x) in the same way that the 17-40/4L won't offer the 300D or the 10D a 17mm field of view. Or have I missed something? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_rubinstein___mancheste Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 L lenses are made for the serious amatuer/pro market as their price tag suggests. Making L lenses for consumer level cameras would just be silly.<br> There are a full range of L lenses to suite the 1.6x digital user or the film user, i.e. the 16-35L, 17-40L, 24-70L, etc. Why should canon invest the R&D to make and market EF-S versions of these lenses? It would only serve to limit their market. Even if they made a super wide angle lens such as a 10-20L for example, why would they want to limit the buyers to digi EF-S shooters, it doesn't make financial sense if they could sell to film/FF users. <br>Canon's statement says that the 1.6x format was used on the 300D to bring the cost to consumer level, that seems to hint that the Pro market will be able to benefit from FF sensors that they can afford. That seems to me to say that the EF mount is here to stay, and it's what the pro (L user) market is going to be using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john clark Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Thought about this a bit more. Perhaps the EF-S mount is simply a means of allowing Canon to continue producing smaller-than-35mm sized sensors whilst providing the wide-angle capability that's required of a 'consumer' zoom without the expensive aspherical elements of (say) the 17-40/4L and so on? Perhaps the EF-S lens mount is simply a means to an end, and I wonder if we're all missing the motives behind this move. Canon has possibly introduced this mount as a consumer range. This makes sense. Thinking about the fab. facilities required for the production of the sensors. Canon will by now have ramped up production with massive investment in particular sensor sizes. Their strategy is possibly to streamline a standardised sensor and drive down costs that way, rather than look to improve sensors by upping resolution and/or sensor size (for the consumer market). As a consequence, by keeping the sensor size constant, and dedicating maximum capacity to the production of 1.6x smaller sensors, they can drive down the cost of camera bodies. However, such a drive toward the notional 'fSLR priced dSLR' is restricted by the fact that the trade-off of smaller (and hence cheaper) sensor size requires wider-angle optics, which are probably more expensive to develop and make than conventional plastic consumer zooms in the standard range of 28-80 or so. It seems to me that perhaps part of the difficulties in producing a cheaper wide-angle zoom might be the retrofocus design (requiring aspherical elements, etc.) and so by introducing a consumer-level, backwards compatible lens-mount, they can use cheaper, recessed elements. Rangefinder cameras have always used recessed, non-retrofocus elements in their wide-angle range. The big trade-off there is the light fall off - which requires expensive glass and often even then centre ND filters are required. However, Canon's big leap of inspiration might well be the fact that light fall-off doesn't affect a smaller sensor nearly as much due to the crop-factor, thus allowing them to use potentially cheaper non-retrofocus lens designs. I think this makes sense - whaddya think? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard thompson www.fotoz Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 Your missing my point Yakim and John - 15mm x 1.6 = 24mm. Stick a sigma 15-30, a 17-40L, a 16-35L whatever *EF* lens on a EF-S compatible body and you still get the 1.6x magnification. Stick a 18-55 *EF-S* lens and you get 18-55mm - i.e. 1x - i.e. no magnification, meaning 18mm at the wide end. Thats what this system is all about - EF-S provides 1x instead of 1.6x. This means they don't have to invest tens of millions in producing 1x buy using full frame CMOS chips, instead, modify some lenses (you only need wide angle ones) to EF-S to bridge the 'wide angle' problem of the 1.6x magnification. Ben - I am not taking specifically about the EOS300 - I am taking about the suite of EF-S compatible digital bodies which will be coming out - the middle of the range prosumer cameras - normal people who can afford $1500 for a body, but not $7000. They will want at least midrange EF-S lenses - ok 'L' may be going to far. Dont look at it as EF or EF-S. EF-S will just complement EF for the con/prosumer people by alowing 1x magnification and hence proper wide angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard thompson www.fotoz Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 John, I was still writing my reply when you posted your second reply. Youve got it - your now thinking along the same lines. EF-S is simply "a cheaper solution to remove 1.6x crop (and hence alow wide angles) on a smaller than 35mm sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_rubinstein___mancheste Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Richard,as far as I have understood from the canon press releases, the 18-55 EF-S when put onto the 300D transalates to approx 28-90mm lens. Therefore it is no different than putting a 16-35L on the camera. This isn't a super wide lens for consumers, it's a 'normal' zoom lens for digital consumers. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. That brings me back to my previous point, that there will be no point in having EF-S L lenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john clark Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 "Stick a 18-55 *EF-S* lens and you get 18-55mm - i.e. 1x - i.e. no magnification, meaning 18mm at the wide end. " Are you really sure about that? It would represent a *very* strange decision for Canon to make for their 'kit' lens for any digital camera. After all, most people want to cover the range 28 to 70 at least, and the consumer viewpoint is normally that the more 'zoom' one can get, the better. Normally at the expense of the wide angle. I am happy to be proved wrong - but I'd also be very surprised. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard thompson www.fotoz Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 hmmmmmm. I see your point (thinking with fingers again). So are you saying they have taken a standard zoom, move the back elements further back to make it wider, so when its put on an EF-S compatible body its a standard zoom again ? OK - well that still alows you to do this : Take a 17-35, move the back elements further back, put it on an EF-S compatible body and you have 17-35 again - i.e. wide angles on a smaller, less than full frame CMOS chipped camera. Now the majority of consumers who but the EOS300D wouldn't want this wider angles, but keen photographers on a budget would. And there are people. I used to own a canon EOS300 (consumer body), and I bought a 17-35mm for it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaac sibson Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Richard, you have got confused. When you put the 18-55 onto the 300D, and look through the viewfinder, it will be just like looking through a 28-90 on a 300v. It does not negate the 1.6X FOV crop relative to 35mm film frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john clark Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 It's basically the same as sticking any other 18mm lens on a 10D would be - i.e. the 1.6x18 equates to approx. 29mm effective field of view. The only thing different about the EF-S mount AFAICT is the ability to allow non-retrofocus wide-angle elements to protrude into the camera, much as for (say) a Contax G, Leica M or Mamiya 7... The reason they've done this is probably cost. With a smaller amount of the lens required than for a film camera, the Cos-thingie light fall-off is less of an issue. It basically means they can provide a cheap'n'nasty kit lens without having to go the distance of a 17-40/4L, which will work out not a whole lot cheaper than the 300D body... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard thompson www.fotoz Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 Isaac and John,Thanks for confirmation and _appologies_ to those I disagreed with earlier. Canon can keep their EF-S then, unless they bring out a midrange 10-24mm EF-S USM. Then I might be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_rubinstein___mancheste Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 The thing is that taking a 17-40L and moving the elements backwards, would effectively make a wide angle L quality EF-S but at such a horrendous price that would make buying a 1Ds plus the 17-40L seem a viable alternative to the 300D with such a lens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ike k Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Hi, IMHO I don't really care with this new EF/S lens unless they will match up the quality of my "L" series lenses and I don't think Canon stupid enough to make people (in this case 10D users) buy this lens in order to get a very wide coverage but suffer from quality.Seriously though, this ain't that good lens, it's just a basic kit lens so people who buy this 300D can right away start shooting wihout being confused which lens they should buy as so many people who bought 10D still asking which are the best choices lenses for they camera, and again if you wnat the best from Canon get their "L" series or prime series and case is close. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthias_meixner2 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 "I predict that the sucessor to the 10D - I'm going to call it the 8D for arguments sake, will be EF-S and EF compatible, of the build and feature quality of the 10D and with 8 megapixels. So '1x focal lenth' and hence wide angles will be available to the consumer and prosumer as already available to the pro with full frame. There will be midrange or 'L' EF-S lenses within 12 months." I rather guess, that there will be a full frame version than an EF-S version, since even with EF-S you don't get rid of that 1.6x magnification. And from marketing point of view, a full frame camera would fill the gap between 1Ds and 10D and give an answer to e.g. Kodak DCS Pro 14n. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citizensmith1664875108 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 What I'm wondering is, did they bury some circuitry in the 18-55 that blocks operation of any other camera when the 18-55 is attached. I know Canon are only going to sell them with the 300D, but they will at some point end up on the used market and someone will strap one to their Rebel Ti, D60 or whatever. Will they get an error message, or an intresting noise as the mirror slaps into the back of the lens (probably followed by an error message for different reasons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthias_meixner2 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 "Will they get an error message, or an intresting noise as the mirror slaps into the back of the lens (probably followed by an error message for different reasons)." AFAIK, there is an additional rubber ring, that prevents the use on cameras that don't support EF-S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_l1 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 18-55 EF-S == 28-88mm in terms of 35mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markci Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 >>>> Thats what this system is all about - EF-S provides 1x instead of 1.6x. Where in the world did you get that bizarre, and completely erroneous, idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_rubinstein___mancheste Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Give the guy a break, he's already said that he made a mistake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakim_peled1 Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 >> "And I still think that Canon should have produced an EF version of the Sigma 15-30 instead of inventing a new lens mount". >> "They did Yakim, it's called the 17-40L". Apart from the fact that both are wide angle zooms I find very little similarities. Oh, yeah. They both mount on EOS cameras.... Happy shooting , Yakim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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