elliot_n Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Ok Benjamin, I'm sorry; describing you as 'clueless' was uncalled for. But apart from that jibe, I've spent time and energy giving you good advice in this and other threads. You should be grateful. And whilst you may not be clueless, you are, without doubt, a beginner who has a lot to learn. With this in mind I again suggest that you visit the church and shoot some tests before the wedding. (Incidentally, who was 'the one helpful person' in this thread?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin_cromwell Posted June 25, 2003 Author Share Posted June 25, 2003 Thanks, you have been Indemnified. And yes I have found your advice helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Continuing on the golf course...Fore! The problem is, our camera cannot flash sync at 1/1000th, period. So, we cannot use 1/000th at f5.6! We are limited to whatever the camera will sync at: 1/250th for 35mm and 1/500 for Haselblads and 1/1000th for Rollei 6008i with pds lenses which cost $4,000 apiece! If we had the Rollei, we could do it. We don't, so we have to use 250th at f11. But we need f5.6 which is 2 stops more power, So our only choice is to furnish more light power. We need 2x2=4 times more power, a jump from 100ws to 400ws to do the job and satisfy the "inverse square rule". Time for tea. Therefore we need some powerful extra units like 2 Norman 200b or 200c or Lumedyne or 4-Vivitar 283 / 285. This is the solution for outdoor fill problems of groups or single persons, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Now to answer Tom M.'s problem with flash fill in a church: The answer for newbies to wedding photography is: don't do it! Just use your flash unit like you would ny other time and set your camera to its regular fastest shutter sync speed for flash. This either 1/60 or 1/125 or 1/250, the little symbol on the speed dial tells you whee it is. If you don't know STILL< set it for 1/60. What we are trying to avoid is a disaster for the Bride. Only very experienced photographers should use shutter-dragging at any time! That isn't you! When you are indoors, just use straight flash! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Benjamin should take a reading with his new flashmeter while it is pointed at his flash from 10'. What is the readout? f8? f11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twmeyer Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 I am not Tom M. (man, this is confusing, because I <i>am</i> Tom M. *whew*).<p> My problem with kicking a shutter speed 1 stop higher in bright sun, is that it means one stop smaller aperture to keep the same ambiant exposure, but it requires twice as much flash output because of that 1 stop smaller aperture. And that doesn't even address whether your camera can sync at that higher speed. <p>What Tom M. (the <i>other</i> Tom M.) meant when he said "The only thing I know that reduces the power of the flash based on shutter speed is using a shutter speed faster than the sync speed with a flash capable of high sync.", is that those cameras that allow high speed shutter flash photography use speeds faster than the fastest single pop sync will allow... That the little on-camera-strobe has to produce a rapid succession of pops so that the entire film surface receives exposure from many rapid stroboscopic flashes as a slit sized opening transverses the recording surface. This stroboscopic flashing happens at a substantially lower power than single pop flash from the same unit. <i>Hence</i> the higher shutter speed practically reduces the flash output since it exceeds the units single pop maximum. *whew*!... t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twmeyer Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 well that's backwards... I quit... t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 It sounds like Tom M #1 is explaining to us how his auto mode works. I thought he was talking about drag-a-shutter in low light. If you decrease speed, the auto is going to open up your apeture, and as it does, it will decrease the amount of flash power by controling the duration of the flash. Do you see what GAMP's ( Gadgeteer Auto Mode Photographer ) have to go through to control their exposures? Deception, lying and false input. The next thing you know, they will be thinkin about how their underrated iso setting, put there as a saftey, affects this drag-a-shutter color mix of orange-brown and the bride's white dress! What complication! GAMPs live in a tortured world! All this because they don't want to spend $50 on two used Vivitar 283's for background fill on the altar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 These GAMPs have even confused the words "fill" "flash fill" "min light" in their working in the church. When you do a drag-a-shutter, your flash is your "main light" but to the weekend warrior GAMPs the flash is only a "fill" and then they like to call it a "flash fill" or "fill flash"--even though they could know that the ambient light will be less than 50% of the whole exposure! Even though the ambient light "fills the background". Maybe they don't even have a main light! --just two "fills"--the flash fill and the ambient background "fill". That is how the GAMPs work changing words around so that they don't have to buy real equipment which would up the quality of their work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 I've got it! GAMPs don't HAVE main lights! That is why it isn't in their vocabulary! Mr. Lambert, above, remarked regarding his dismay that being a pro photographer might require owning a mono light, remember? He might have to purchase a more powerful flash! GAMPs prefer denial! It is right there in black and white! Another breakthrough into the GAMP subculture spread out in the pages of Photo.net!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_menegatos Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Timber, I had no idea who you were befor this thread but I took the time to go through some of the other threads you were a part of. Let me make some suggestions. First, try and read your posts before you post them. You'd have to post less frequently to each thread if you didn't leave gaps in your responses so that you'd have to come back 2 or 3 times just to clarify what you meant. Second, don't try and fill in perceived gaps in other people's posts. I don't remember ever saying anything about personaly having a problem with fill flash in the church, rather I tried to steer you back on the subject of the original question. I also don't remember saying anything regarding film speed as far as under/over rating it as a safety or otherwise. Third, stay on topic. You've been a professional photographer for about as long as I've been alive so I'm sure you have some valuable input if you'd answer the question being asked as opposed to continuing on wild tangents to validate what you have said. This is a Q&A forum. If someone asks advice on how to shoot a group in a church it is more productive to help them out rather than to instruct them on the proper way to light a group under a tree in a sunny golf course. As far as your fill flash comment... I guess it's relative. To me, using flash under the tree in your scenario would be the main light on the subject but fill for the scene. So I don't understand your argument. As for GAMPs... I've shot everything from completely manual flash with no ambient light to manual flash with ambient light to ambient light with auto flash to solely ambient light. When I'm working with my auto gear I know it well enough to know when I need to adjust flash or exposure compensation. Just like when I'm on my motorcycle and I need to get more power on the highway I can manualy drop into a lower gear or if I'm in my car let the automatic transmission know that I want it to drop into a lower gear. It's about knowing how your equipment reacts so that you can get the results you want. If you are going to belittle other photographers preferences and techniques and claim yours are superior it might add more punch to your argument if you post some examples. Please keep in mind that this forum is for answering questions and sharing ideas not insulting other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Tom M. Your response fails to see that this questioneer didn't specify a indoor situation, and disregard an outdoor group shot using fill flash. Therefore because he specified "fill" and not shutter-draging, that triggered my outdoor answer. I cannot give you the respect you want if you defend the usage of confusing terms. AS FOR YOU demand that I place everything in one post, I cannot do that, either because my computer is an exercise bicycle in a gym. I am typing with one finger with no mouse or keyboard. I am under a time limitas to how long I can be on this computer until someone else wants to use it. I realise that those who would risk someone's elses wedding to poor technique may also want to be paid and have respect from other photographers. But this is the honest real world where opinions will be expressed. This is a pro thread, not a 8th grade beginner's school! Now, because I cannot mouse over to your statements, backscrolling, I have to end this paragraph and start another. This upsets you, I realise, You will be critical of me even as you tell me I am critical of your technique , but do you understand that I have do it this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 If you could read-re-read your statement about my "tangent" you would realize that this person did not specify a church situation. You went on a tangent trying to explain how I missed his original question regarding a church situation when he did not mention one. So who is off on a tangent? You! My purpose of laying down the whole process of legal, normal "flash fill" was to educate anyone who wants to know the real process for their use. I want other photographers who care about good work habits and good taste to be informed. The silly heckers and scared GAMPs can take the sidelines. Now, i have to end this so I can read more of your statement while my feet are spinning at 54 rpms. Do you need this reminder in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Benjamin has contacted me outside of this thread. He thinks that the lot of you are confusing to follow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_menegatos Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 2 hours before your post Benjamin followed with "Shooting in a Church, Portra 400, (maybe shot at 320 or even 200) 70-200 2.8" The only reason I came into this thread was because I didn't think larry's comment towards you was appropriate. So I added my statement that different people like different things and I asked for clarification because as stated, in response to Benjamin's question it didn't make sense to me. That you took so much offense to it is beyond my control as I tried to ask as politely as possible for clarification. After you described the situation you were referencing in more detail I agreed with you. I still don't understand where the hostility comes from but this is a forum for photographers not wedding photography clients. If you want to bash other photographic styles in such a manner to your clients, feel free to do so to your hearts content but this isn't a competition. We are all here to help and learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 OK, I am now on a regular computer. You can tell this is the case because I have a return key to make paragraphs! Like this. And this. 95% of the time when I am responding to questions, I am exercising in a gym. My feet are spinning around as I hit a virtual keyboard that has no return key, no good scrolling, and no mouse. Tom M.: When you propose questions on top of the questions of the original questioneer, it makes it complicated to respond to the original problem. At some point, I realize that the several respondants need a lesson in basics, or a pointer in good taste. Maybe they need to hear a horror story to give them a reason to adjust their technique or re-write their contract. Maybe they need to have their wings clipped, and their bubble burst. Here we have a guy, Benjamin, who is in trouble. He needs answers quickly. He is doing a pro job for a friend. These are the worst because he could loose the friend! Understand? This is a critical moment in his life. Now, I care about other people. And I want to answer the questions of confused people. I personally didn't understand your comment about 1/125th of a second...blah blah. So, my style is sometimes to simply go back to basics. This makes my response longer than just saying, "no, don't use fill". In this way, people like yourself asking questions, and others might be able to see the solutions to their own questions without my direct answer to their questions...understand? You are being lead to the source of knowledge, then you find it yourself. Because I used the example of a golf course, I knew there would be no confusion whether I was talking about inside or out. How could anyone make this mistake? Yet, you were confused and thought that we were talking about "inside fill". Remember, I am typing with one finger while I am moving on a bicycle normally. I cannot re-read a person's paragraphs without submitting my post to photo.net. I have to 'submit', re-read the previous post, then re-enter photo.net! I realized at some point that the words of these newbie experienced people like yourself are being re-crafted and violated with new meanings. That adds to the confusion. So, I thought I would create a few paragraphs to help people remember this vocabulary issue. I realize that you can use your auto mode on your camera to take pictures. You have even developed a way to manipulate your auto mode to take pictures. But does this really matter to Benjamin? He's already having problem with his auto mode! Do you want me to tell him to keep using his auto mode? I want Benjamin to be successful this weekend or whenever soon he photographs this bride. I don't want him to be confused by the responses of photographers who are sold on the idea of using shutter-dragging and any other techniques that could spoil this wedding. I want to make it very clear that this is a technique that could put at risk the most important photographs of the most important day in a person's life. These are the photographs that this person would grab if her home were on fire! Do you understand this value? I realize that you are well-meaning. I realize that many other people are well-meaning on this thread. But at some point, it may take a stronger communication, a stronger personality to get the best techniques in the hands of the questioneer, while pushing aside the bad techniques and opinions of others. Shutter dragging, church flash fill with ambient light, etc. is not one of the best techniques. One of Benjamin's comment above sounds really confused, doesn't it? He got some talk about this and that. And he's still confused and overwhelmed. He e-mailed me, personally. A professional teacher would realize that this "class" needs to take a trip back to basics. And that is the solution I took. It might confuse you to read about basics; you might think this is a tangent. But I honestly care more about the questioneer than about your question, Tom M. He is the one who will go through a baptism of fire soon enough. As for my age, who cares? Why make the reference? Getting personal? Remember that I am a pro, not a college teacher. If something is not good, a technique, a look, some equipment, I have to toss it out. It is too risky to keep. My comments will continue to be candid. They aren't designed to make everyone feel good; they are designed to strike at a problem and hopefully leave the best solution. I believe in my solutions. I have confidence in my solutions. If I find any better solutions, I use it, and I sometimes share it with others. (not always) At any rate, I am ending this note. I hope you can continue to feel comfortable in asking me any questions. However, I cannot promise to make you feel comfortable with my answers. That is a risk you'll have to take. Timber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Benjamin, To answer your e-mail I need to know what is the highest speed your camera will sync at: 1/60, 1/125 or 1/250. Next, I need to know how powerful your flash is. To find out do this: During the night, go to a grassy area or to a parking lot. With your camea on a tripod, or held by a friend, pop a flash at the flashmeter. Be sure the meter is vertical with the white dome "face" or "eye" looking at your flash. The flash should be able to cover the entire dome with its light. No 1/2 moons! We want the dome to look like a full moon from the viewpoint of the flah. Be sure your flashmeter is on Flash" or whatever it is that makess it work! Your result will probably be f5.6, or f8 or f11 at a 10' distance. Oh, and set your iso speed to 100 iso. Next question. In the church during the ceremony, you could take pictures of the ceremony with the Priest's permission. However, f8 is not the optimum f stop to use. I would rather see you using f4 for these candid pictures. What does the meter say? I don't know what your meter reading in the church is. Please Do aa meter reading for 100 iso, 250 iso, 320 iso and write down the result. I think in 100 iso, and this makes it more comfortable for me. Be sure to put alittle roof over the meter with your free hand. Take a meter reading with the "roof" and do a set of readings without the "roof". That is 6 total readings. Write down the result. Make rows and columns. Label them. There are, oh, 6 major situatins you will be running into. One is the church light; another is the open shade outdoors, 3. candid pictures of people dancing full-lenth, 4. head and belt dancing/chit-chat., sunny day, clouds, indoor bounce off of 8' ceiling. with a white card. Benjamin, go get a 4x5 inch white card, even an old picture will do. We will attach this to your flash!. More later; make this chart. Do the test. And yes, I am secure on my bike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Benjamin, when you do this test of your flash with your meter at 10' be sure that the meter is surrounded space or darkness. It could be held by someone wearing black or attached to the 1/4" screw thread on your tripod. You see your auto mode flash might be on and it would be affected by something light and large in front of it. Turn off all auto modes. You are no longer a GAMP after this wedding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Benjamin, your unit is a 50ws unit. f5.6 at 10 feet is a GN of 56. This is half the power of a Vivitar 283. Oh boy, that is weak! This group shot, taken with a 35mm lens on 35mm camera, with 320 iso film rating (400) willforce you to use f4 for a group of 12 ushers and bridesmaids--whole bridle party. Use 125th speed sync. I would like you to quicky buy a used Vivitar 283 or 285. I have several. You need more power if the bridal party is 12 people. I hope they dont want 8x10s! Check Ebay or maybe I could sell you one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Since your re a photojournlist, the Vivitar 285 with included wide/telephoto focusing is the one you need. It isn't dedicated, and it has an auto mode to give you a crutch. It is 100ws on normal, 150 on telephoto. It can cover for a 28mm lens! Used they are about $50. They have the respect of photo.net. Your flashmeter saved you here: you know your flash is weak. This was one of the first benefits of leaving behind GAMP methods. Otherwise, you would only have found out on the day of the wedding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Answering B. e-mail: The Vivitar 285 is a 100ws unit. It will give you one more stop power at any distance. At 10 feet, it will give you a f9, alittle better than f8, but let's call it an f8. Therefore on the altar you should get an f5.6 with it of 12 people o 400 iso film rated at 320 iso. A picture of a bride alone with a long dress will give you an f8 at 320 iso with a long dress displayed on the altr. By the way, that white dress is what is going to throw off your auto mode; your incident meter will work no problem, and be dead on. SSo, you need to quickly get a 285 used and battered, but working, for use of this group shot. If you buy 2 of these 285's, you would then have a backup. If you buy a hotshoe slave by Wein for one of them, you could have 200ws. This would give you another stop of power. You don't need f11 for this group shot. You don't need f8, either, but it would be nice! You need at least f4.7, or f5.6 or f6.3. You need about 3 ft of excellent depth of sharpness, and f5.6 will give you that as you record a group of 12 people from, oh, 25-35 feet away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot_n Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 You'll find it hard to work at that distance with a Vivitar 285, as it will be discharging fully with each exposure. You will then have to wait 10 seconds between each shot as the flash recycles. That's not really practical when your shooting a wedding party. I'd recommend using a wider lens and getting closer. Alternatively you could rent a Quantum Turbo battery which will cut the flash recycle time down to 1.5 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry_lambert1 Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 For the so superior Mr. Borcherding: 1. "Fill"= not a main light. Under your tree, the flash is being used as a main light for the people. Get it straight. 2. "Shooting in a Church, Portra 400, (maybe shot at 320 or even 200) 70-200 2.8" - posted by Mr. Cromwell two lines after the original question for clarification. Get out of your gym and read before you criticize me for ANSWERING HIS ACTUAL QUESTION. 3. You are ruining this forum with your rambling daisy chaining posts. The first time I saw one of your answer chains it was about building a darkroom. You were boring back then, and you haven't improved with age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry_lambert1 Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Let me reiterate; You are BORING Mr. Borcherding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin_cromwell Posted June 27, 2003 Author Share Posted June 27, 2003 I went back to re-read all of this and My head exploded. I should have known better. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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