benjamin_cromwell Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 I have not been actively taking photos for a year or so now and I have reciently found a new spark and passion, so you can understand why I am disappointed when I show you some bridal shots I have taken. I have 2 photos posted in my folio online. My camera seemed to meter off the white dress, and with the sun light I got some seriously underexposed prints; then the lab printed them brighter in order to compensate which gave many of them a HAZY look. The one of the woman sitting was one of the worst and the standing shot was better probably due to the shade. I understand that a hand held meter would have helped or even a gray card. MY QUESTION: Does anyone that has experiance with problem know if this happened due to the combination of Light and white dress ( and of course my camera;s meter) I guess another way to ask this question is Will have have this problem in doors? Say in a church or will I have this problem every time my camera meters off of the white dress. I am a little frantic because I talked my friend here into letting my shoot her wedding for experiance and I don't want to let her down. There will be about 200 of her friends there that will be getting hitched soon and I am looking to get my wedding business started. I have the ability to travel once to the church and test some shots. I was shooting those pics with Kodak portra 160Vc and I will probably shoot with 400VC the day of the wedding. I have had many many suggestions and I am so confused. How do I lick this problem? Meter everything with a hand meter? Shoot 400 ISO at 320? Gray Card? I am frustrated because who has time to Meter everything when shooting candid. AHHHHHHHHHHHHH HELP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin_cromwell Posted June 22, 2003 Author Share Posted June 22, 2003 Here is a Picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin_cromwell Posted June 22, 2003 Author Share Posted June 22, 2003 Here is another from the same roll, different location. Seems much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbq Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Gray card or ambient meter may help. Or you can set your camera to overexpose by 1 to 1.5 stops and meter on the white dress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_menegatos Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 You have to get to know you're camera's meter well enough to know when you need to over expose and when you need to underexpose. Or get an incident meter or get familiar with the spot/partial meter on your camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot_n Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 The shots you've posted are not candids so you should have time to think about the exposure. I use an incident meter for just about everything, but if you're unfamiliar with handheld meters you might be better off using the camera's spot meter (if it has one) and metering off the bride's face (with +1 compensation). For candid party pictures, when you don't have so much time to think about exposure, I would go on auto, with the film rated at 1 stop less than it's stated ASA. This should cover you for those shots where the bride fills the frame. I'd recommend either 400VC (or NC) at 200ASA, or NPZ at 400ASA . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 I have 30 years experience with weddings. Please 'listen'. You need an incident meter such as a Minolta III (flashmeter) or the IV model used..about $90 on the auctions. The correct exposure for open shade, normally, is 125th sec. at f2.8 with 100 iso film. Just remember this for the future. Your second shot has flash fill, that is why it looks more saturated. Your camera did the thinking for you. The first shot is soft because you are flarig the lens with a real difficult lighting situation. You also must have exposed at around 1/60th which degraded sharpness. The white part of the dress is illuminated by stray light nd washing out all detail=no sharpness. The background is unsharp because you focused closly at around f4 You broke all of the rules of good portraiture lighting and then had this bride sit on the dirty dusty concrete like she's waiting for the next 25 cent handout in the bus stop shelter.---in her $1,000 dress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 You should shoot your candids with flash 100% of the time until you have memorized all of the exposures for the different "conditions" of exposure: open sky shade, direct sun, lit church, etc. You should purchase a used Minolta III flashmeter. Use only, only incident readings and do not use your camera exposure system again! Do not use gray cards, they have reflectance angles which provide sheen to the meter and throw everything off. Do not meter off of the dress! There are many gadgeteer photographers on this site, they use auto everything and do not know how to control their product. You have accepted a big resonsibility that can lose you friendship and land you in court! Stop being pushed around by these auto photogs. You need to learn basics. You start by metering areas that you will work in, then remember those cases. They repeat! The church...1/4th at f4, open shade, 125th at f2.8, head and shoulders of two people dancing: f8 (with 50ws). You need a handheld meter, now! Timber Borcherding timberborcherding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin_cromwell Posted June 23, 2003 Author Share Posted June 23, 2003 Wow Timber, Thanks for your honesty. I like how you made assumptions about the photos, the fact that it show and you identified helps. My tip to you is Leave that last line out next time that would help even more. The Bride in this picture had this great idea, and yes you guessed it sit on the nasty dirty concrete in her $1000 dress, I would have never asked her to do this. So I did get something right. Sarcasim aside, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Well, there is hope for you! Go to ebay.com Do a search for: Minolta flashmeter iii not Minolta auto meter iii You need the flashmeter! When you use an incident meter, use the dome, not the flat white disc. Hold the meter vertically (usually) in front of the subject while you make a "roof" over the meter from 1" away on top with your free hand. The purpose for this is to expose for the areas under her eye brows. You do not understand this now, but later you will realize that you will be in complete control. Go to Ebay and have a beer. Relax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin_kolosky Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 I too have 30 years of experience in shooting weddings and I would agree that as you go along you will notice patterns of exposure for the different areas that you shoot in, taking into account the film you are using, etc., to the point where you will basically know what your exposure should be. I can't remember the last time I used a meter at a wedding, although I do take one along each time. One thing you need to remember is that most camera meters are reflective meters, and most reflective meters suggest an exposure that will provide a medium gray in the print given proper development (remember, camera meters do not read color). Therefore, when you use your camera meter to meter a white dress, the meter will suggest to the camera an exposure that will make that dress medium gray. In actuality, you will be giving less exposure by almost 3 stops, thereby making the negative less dense or underexposed. An incident meter on the other hand reads the light falling on the subject rather than the light reflecting off the subject, and by the use of a diffusing dome provides a reading that will render most subjects their true tone. With regard to fill flash, etc. there is one basic rule to remember. that is, set your exposure for what you cannot control, and then control what you can. For example, you have a very large expanse of sunlit area in a photograph you are making, but your subjects are in shade. since you cannot control the sunlight you should set your camera for the sunlight exposure and then of course bring your light level up to that exposure in the shade by using fill flash or a reflector. good luck. and don't worry. after about 300 weddings you will be so comfortable with it that you won't even have to think about what you are doing. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Kevin K.'s comment is well worn wisdom; excellent comment. Everything becomes less stressful when your actions are a result of recognizing repeating patterns. The sooner that you pin own these exposure situations, memorizing the light situation with exposure values, the more comfortable you will be at weddings. It will become like learning to shift gears in a curve, or playing tennis. This is called "muscle memory" to dancers in ballroom. You walk into open shade, you are at 125th f2.8. Outside, unless you are really surrounded by trees without some pavement to reflect light, you are at 125th at f2.8 After a while, you will see a wall that reflects some light into an open shade area, you start at 125th f2.8 then and a stop for the bright wall---or take a reading. But these exceptions do not happen often. Just read your working areas. Then as the sun sets, you open up one stop, then start using flash as it goes to twilight. You will "follow the light intensity" the day long. I rarely take an exposure reading, either, and I contact print! I see my errors in exposure! -And they are seldom, maybe 1/2%. I suggest you do, too. Yes, I also know my bounce flash exposure too off of 8', 10', 12' high ceilings. I know my white walls and beige walls ( 1 stop more for beige) I bounce off of objects, even a donated white shirt or table cloth. And I know my exposures for these situations. Toss the auto modes! Timber Borcherding timberborcheding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot_n Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 As someone with over 90 years experience of shooting weddings, I know absolutely everything. I never make mistakes. I could photograph a wedding with my eyes closed. Isn't that great? You should know everything too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot_n Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 'You walk into open shade, you are at 125th f2.8' Yeah, right. At 9am, and at noon, and at 6pm? Interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Wedding receptions don't happen in open shade gardens at 9AM. At 6PM during summer, there is a bright sky--the sun sets at 8:30. At noon, the open shade is unaffected due to the fact that it is SHADE. This means "blocked from the sun". Also, to completely cap your comment, I said " ...follow the intensity of the light" This means to adjust for little reflections, and moving clouds. If you really understood my comment, you might be a light reader. I think your thinking and light meter reading is stuck on auto mode. Timber Borcherding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Oh, to add: Any candid photographer should be slightly overexpoing his/her film by about 1/2 top for natural light--if you are doing lots of different angles under shade. Why? You need to make sure the area under the brow of the forehead, the eye sockets are covered well with exposure. You cannot move these people always into open shade so you need to adjust for them turning alittle way from open sky alittle as they chat. Negative film can handle this with ease. If you do alot of open shade, try 400 film, adjust the numbers accordingly. If you are in "closed shade" you better meter: too risky. Timber Borcherding timberborcherding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot_n Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 'I think your thinking and light meter reading is stuck on auto mode' Well, yes, to the extent that I'd rather use my incident lightmeter than rely on intuition. Open shade, even within the time parameters of your typical wedding, is too variable for any generalised rule. Of course, by shooting at f2.8 at 1/125 you've got yourself covered, but often you will be overexposing your film by at least a couple of stops. At noon today in London, the open shade round the back of my flat was reading f5.6 and a 1/2 at 1/125 (100ASA). Now, at 4pm, I'm getting f4 and a 1/3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 F2.8 at 125th on 100 iso occurs in grassy reception areas with trees as over head shade but open shade.. When you are around buildings, you have fill conditions to your shade coming from light being reflected off of white walls, even a block away. If I go f2.8, I am "covered" with alittle overexposure in the city if there is no time for a reading. But I wear my incident meter on my vest, and shame on me for not taking a new reading in a new "scene" or place. In the deep city , " open sky " is harder to find, the kind that will illuminate under the eye brows. So that becomes a challenge with reflectors and fill and meter readings! Remember I m concerned about the light that illuminates under the eye brows, upon the upper eye lid. Timber Borcherding timberborcherding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberwolf1 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Benjamin took my advice many months ago. He illuminates with 2 Vivitar 285s and uses a hand exposure meter, no camera on auto-mode. As a result, he has a really nice wedding altar shot of a group done with 2 Vivitars. Also, his latest shot of his wife on the grass has nice fill-in flash from those same Vivitars. Although his original photos with the problems are still posted, they are valuable to see a transition in his abilities. He has abandoned the idea of using confusing natural lighting sources, and placed himself in control over the results. Timber Borcherding timberborcherding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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