altaf Posted November 1, 1998 Share Posted November 1, 1998 I don't know if this counts as nature photography but i felt this was the best place to ask. <p> Where would be a good place to learn about survival field techniques for photographers? <p> ex: (1) snake bite (2) deciding wheres a safe place to camp (3) fire rules <p> I am a native new yorker so i don't want to (a) die (b) get in over my head going backpacking © make an ass out of myself by not following the rules about fire safety etc... I'm a bit too old to join the boyscouts :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew_francey Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 0) Just about any book on camping/hiking will do. You can also askthis question in rec.backcountry or similar newsgroups. Or just wadearound there, since it is one of those FAQ's. None of thesereferences will deal specifically with photographers, simply becausecampcraft is orthogonal to photography [ie, you are not exempt fromany "rules", nor are there extra ones, because you are aphotographer]. <p> 1) If you manage to get bit by a snake, you probably deserved it. Ifyou are concerned, wear boots that go above your ankles. Generallyspeaking do what I do: worry more about munging a foot/ankle on amis-step. <p> 2) The decision process depends on the environment; winter, alpine,desert, forest, jungle, etc. <p> 3) Fires are <i>extremely</i> inefficient. The fuel is very heavy,most of the chemical energy is wasted, the time investment (to startand maintain) is high. Fires also leave a mess behind. Many placesalso flatly forbid fires. White gas camp stoves are vastly superiorin almost every way. The book(s) you will read will go on about this. <p> a) That you've asked the question means this is an unlikely outcome. <p> b) Start with car-camping. However, buy and use trail-ready equipment(usually low-mass and relatively expensive) to become familiar with itand the patterns of camp life. <p> c) The only rule about fires is to simply not bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_chen Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 Other than reading books, visit your local EMS (Eastern Mountain Sports, there is one on Broadway and Houston, or there used to be one) or other established camping supply store. Usually they hold short courses/seminars on basic camping skills, among other topics. They are usually free to enroll. Best way is to get out there and start doing it once you know the basics. <p> I wouldn't worry too much about snakes camping in the continental US. Only two poisonous terrential snakes (rattle snake and copperhead), neither one very poisonous. Rarely fatal. Learn some basics and you will be okay. <p> Deciding where to camp is more complicated depending on where you are. You need to rely on experience and information on local wildlife and weather. <p> When it comes to fire, use common sense and follow local and seasonal regulations, which are usually clearly provided in National or state parks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markci Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 I'm not sure what a "terrential" snake would be, but there are certainly a lot more than two venomous ones in the U.S. In addition to the copperhead and many different species of rattlesnake there are coral snakes and cottonmouths. Several species of rattlesnakes and the cottonmouth are dangerously venomous, though encounters are rare enough in most areas that I wouldn't be that concerned, other than to wear boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_khoo Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 Hi there - Buy a book on fieldcraft and read it. visit any of your local camping store and ask about it. The store person usually will help you. Decide which location you want to go and get as much information about the place. Think you may want to try a place which is frequent by campers and trekkers first. <p> You seem to be very concern about snakes! Believe me they are more afraid of you than you to them. Most snakes will avoid a confrontation and will go away if you let it. Snakes will attack when you accidently step on them(quite rare), or you provoke them(most likely the case). Like mention before, wear a pair of boots that go above the ankles(you may want to consider the army ones and nothing canvas). gather and tuck the ends of you pants with rubberbands and fit it round your boots,preventing snakes and who know what else from going up your pants!! Should you be sleeping out in the field, i think there are snake repellents, is there?!?!(anyway, snakes hate sulphur. you can put some of this yellow stuff around your sleeping bag area, but don't overdo it as it will be hard to get rid of it the next morning). <p> As far as deciding where is a safe place to camp, well i think there really isn't one if wild animals is your concern. the basic stuff is camping on higher ground, avoid open fields or spaces(you do not want to be the tallest object in a lightning and thunder storm), etc..etc...(read the fieldcraft book!) <p> Fire rules - Don't start a fire!! use a portable gas stove or solid fuel. <p> regardsdavid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 No, it isn't nature photography. You should try the rec.backcountryUsenet newsgroup. You can read it via www.dejanews.com if you don't have direct Usenet newsreading capability. Snakebite questions there are as common as "Whichis the best P&S" questions on photo.net...This thread will be removed soon. <p> Snakebites are rare, but can be pretty nasty (fatal) if you are unlucky. There are rattlesnakes in NY state (and NJ, but I've neverseen one!). The best safety rule is not to be alone if you don't knowwhat you are doing (and to travel with someone who does know what theyare doing if possible!). As others have said, you have to go out of your way (or be unlucky)to get bitten by most North American snakes. Last night there wasa program on the Doscovery channel, with a lunatic Auatraliannaturlist who was driving abound Arizona looking for big rattlers.When he found them he would drag them out of their dens by the tailusing his bare hands,poke at them with sticks, hold them up in the air and generally do all the thing you should <b>NEVER</b>doif you come across one. At least on the video they showed, the snakesjust hissed, rattled and postured, they never struck at him. I guess this shows that you really have to provoke mostrattlers into any sort of attack. Of course if you step on one bymistake, you could be in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altaf Posted November 2, 1998 Author Share Posted November 2, 1998 This question was not really about snakes in specific just about field dangers of nature photography. The snakes were used as an example you could easily insert any animal into the question. I realize that it is the humans that are invading the animals territory so i wanted to minimize this intrusion by following some basic guidelines. I see a great deal on this forum on where to go, when to go, what to bring, but if you don't have at least some basic idea of survival techniques can you really say you do nature photography instead of taking snapshots at a local arboretum or wildlife refuge. Granted there will be people on both sides that will argue what is and what is not nature photography and that argument is about 1 day younger than canon vs nikon so i'm leaving that one to st. ansel to sort out himself and tell us. <p> Thanks to everyone for the responses. If there are specific references to books you have found valuable those would be helpful as well. I'm sure a ton has been written about every topic i asked but a nice concise book is always a rarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 There really isn't all that much "out there" in the wilderness tying to get you. Critters generally would MUCH rather get out of your way. The only exceptions I can think of are bears (grizzlies) and any large mammal (Moose) defending it's offspring. Cougars (mountain lions) have been known to attack unprovoked too, but it's pretty rare. They seem to have a liking for joggers - probably confuse them with running animals. People have been killed by Deer, Elk, Bison etc., but you pretty much have to be asking for trouble to get into that situation. Grizzlies, on the other hand, have killed three nature photographers that I know of (probably more). Luckily, you won't find too many grizzlies in the NY area... <p> The average nature photographer really doesn't need "survival" skills, just common sense. On a day hike take some water with you (at least twice as much as you think you will need!), take along rain gear even if it doesn't look like rain, always let someone know where you are going and when you expect to be back. Don't attempt solo multi-day backbacking trips in the wilderness unless you know what you are doing. Take along a cell phone (but turn it off unless you really need to use it!!). <p> As I commented before, try rec.backcountry. There is (or was) lots of stuff there about survival, animal attacks, snake bites, bears, and neverending debates about things I won't mention or they may infect this forum too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike___5 Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 Al, No matter how little you may know about hiking, your chances of getting hurt or into a problem are a lot less than riding the subway carrying your gear. : ) <p> Go hike with someone that's a hiker that you know would like to take better pictures and you'll both have a great time. There are a lot of great places to hike/camp in your area. I think your best bet would be to decide where you're going then pick up a book on that specific area. Kind of like deciding what you want to photograph before buying all the gear. : ( <p> Any way you go about it, if you use common sense you'll generally be fine. Just carefull asking the bears to pose. I hear that their favorite pose is licking peanut butter off an F5 that's is use. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason_elsworth1 Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 A great book on backpacking gear and technique is the Backpackers Handbook by Chris Townsend. It will tell you what to take and how to do it from an overnight to a 6 month trip. It doesn't cover much on field craft but is esssentila reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howard_creech1 Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 Al, I don't think you have to worry much about large (or small) mammal attacks...unless you are way into the Wyoming or Montana back country. Snakes are little problem...with the exception of cottonmouths/moccasins...these snakes can be very agressive and territorial. Plus they come out in the winter on pretty/warm days to sun....the single best piece of advice is to make a little noise (forget the Davy Crockett thing...the animals know you're there) and go slow...and watch where you put your feet (both for the snakes...even more important for the possibility of slipping or falling) If you really haven't been in the woods...don't worry you won't see much until you learn how to get into position without alerting the local populace. Water Moccasins are limited geographically to south of the Mason-Dixon line...so unless you are headed for Florida. Louisiana, the Okefenokee, or other wet swampy southern areas you won't see many cottonmouths. As to fires...take the advice offered and bring a camp stove...if you absolutely must build a fire DO NOT build a circle of stones...these never go away, and they are un-needed...just dig a shallow hole and build a small indian style fire in the hole...when finished you can douse the fire and bury the remains...no danger of fire spreading and no ugly circles of stones left behind for the next guy. Have fun and don't worry too much, your chances of getting wet, cold, and dirty are much better than your chances of being attatcked by wild animals or snakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz_m_brown Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 What the heck, I might as well wade in here. First for a book I heartily recommend The Complete Walker put out by the Sierra Club and available in bookstores everywhere. As far as animal dangers go, I've been camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, etc all my life. I've seen bears (including grizzlies) up close enough to count their nose hairs. By and far the biggest animal trouble I've ever had has been with chipmonks. These rodents will absolutely destroy your pack to get at your crackers inside. For other animals the best advise I can give is to just be aware of what is around you. Bears by and large pose no real threat except in unusual situations, ie you surprise one, you try to get between a sow and her cub, you push too close to a bear on a kill. In places like Yellowstone and surrounding areas where there are lots of grizzlies make sure you don't do any of the above and likely you won't have any trouble. In other areas, the threat is too low to even consider. If you are hiking on bear country, keep your cooking area and food storage away from your tent so if a bear is investigating looking for a free meal he wont bother you in your tent. Same basic advise for any animal you can mention including snakes. <p> One consideration that all nature photographers (and others interacting with nature) need to keep in mind is the threat of rabies. In the east rabies is endemic in racoons. There is an epidemic of rabies going on in racoons in Ohio and surrounding areas and is spreading. Out west rabies is primarily found in bats. Our lab detected rabies in more bats this year than ever before (that probably reflects more people sending in bats to be tested than an actual increase in the rate of rabies). The point is that any animal, especially a bat or racoon, acting out of it's character may be rabid and you should LEAVE IT ALONE. <p> Back to the camping advise, if you go car camping, take along luxury items like a good folding chair, good food, lots of dry clothing, a good sleeping pad (!) , and a warm sleeping bag. That will tremendously increase your camping pleasure. Good luck and have fun. If you find yourself wanting to camp out in Idaho get ahold of me and I can steer you to some spectacular sights.<p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwphoto Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 Al, If you can survive NYC, then you can survive anywhere. Seriously, the road trip to your destination is the most dangerous section. Join a local hiking club, and use a butane stove for cooking. Curt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuraoka Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 The Sierra Club has a course on basic backpacking techniques. It includes lots of training (or indoctrination) and a couple trips. You can find a local chapter (maybe even on the web). Look into your local college extension and Parks & Rec. Depts too. <p> As far as book-learnin', I do not like "The Complete Walker." Two books I highly recommend are "Walking Softly In The Wilderness" by John Hart (ISBN:0-87156-813-6 softcover) and "The National Outdoor Leadership School's Wilderness Guide" by Peter Simer and John Sullivan, (ISBN: 0-671-61821-0 softcover). Those ISBNs are for the editions in my library -- there are probably updated versions out by now. Finally, speaking of the Boy Scouts, the Boy Scout Fieldbook is an excellent reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew_francey Posted November 2, 1998 Share Posted November 2, 1998 "New Yorkers like to boast that if you can survive in New York, you can survive anywhere. But if you can survive anywhere, why live in New York?" -- E. Abbey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelsea Posted November 3, 1998 Share Posted November 3, 1998 Since we're indulging in giving hiking/camping advice, I'll jump in here with my two cents' worth.... <p> It's usually not the snakes or bears that make your outing miserable, it's the little things that are often overlooked. Like inappropriate clothing. Nothing is worth than having the weather change to wet and cold unexpectedly, and not being dressed for it. Check weather conditions before going out. <p> Be prepared for stinging/biting/divebombing aggravating little insects. Find out if there are tick or chigger problems in the area in which you're going. Bee stings can be downright life-threatening to those with allergies. <p> Certain plants should be avoided, poison ivy/oak being the obvious ones. Learn to identify and avoid stinging nettles, thorny plants, etc. <p> Proper footwear is important, blisters are NOT fun. Learn how to walk on different types of terrain, nothing like a twisted ankle to slow you down. <p> TRY YOUR GEAR AT HOME being going out. I've seen countless campers with brand new stuff still in the package and didn't have a clue what to do with it when they got there. <p> Practise with the stuff. Find a campground close to home and try out the techniques; if they're not working, you can drive home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_chen Posted November 3, 1998 Share Posted November 3, 1998 Sorry for the lousy spelling. By "terrential" snakes, I actually meant "terrestrial" snakes, or snakes that live on land. Coral and cottonmouth snakes are in water, no concern to backpacking in the woods. It is a relief to know that only rattlers and copperheads are out there in the US, compared to what you can come across in other parts of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_may Posted November 3, 1998 Share Posted November 3, 1998 This is probably way off the point, but I just wanted to correct some horrendously wrong information about venomous snakes offered by Steve. Cottonmouths are semi-aquatic snakes, and are USUALLY found in or near water, but depending on the habitat, they can be long distances from water at some times of year. They can be a dangerous snake in any habitat. Coral snakes, found only in the southern states, are definitely not aquatic. They are primarily burrowers, and are therefore far more typical of more upland, dry-litter habitats. Because they are burrowers, they are not frequently seen at most times of year. But they can be very dangerous if messed with. As pointed out by several earlier respondents, the majority of venomous snake bites in the U.S. (something like 70%) are "illegitimate", a term used by snake people to denote that someone was doing something to or with the snake that they shouldn't have been doing in order to get bit in the first place (sometimes attempting to kill it). Many snake lovers look on "illegitimate" bites as a form of natural selection. Best advice is to keep your eyes open, and if you do see a snake, back off and leave it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_may Posted November 3, 1998 Share Posted November 3, 1998 One last erroneous point about venomous snakes in the U.S. - I guess it depends on how you define "not very poisonous", but both copperheads and especially the various species of Crotalus rattlesnakes (the bigger ones, not the pigmies and massasaugas) are quite dangerous snakes. While bites are rarely fatal, a decent envenomation by any of these snakes will often earn you a few days in the hospital, some horrendous pain, and often permanent disfigurement or loss of function (loss of fingers, toes, permanent nerve damage, etc.). All venomous snakes should be treated with extreme respect. I'll shut up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_harrison Posted November 3, 1998 Share Posted November 3, 1998 Hi Al,Personally I think its a worthwhile thread, so I'll respond while its here. I spend quite a bit of time camping, canoeing and backpacking. So to reiterate a couple of points...some snakes are poisonous and even deadly. Usually, they are not a concern if you watch were you are going. Some places, such as Cumberland Island, have an abundance of poisonous snakes, but you should know that before going there. It�s the same with other animals. Grizzlies are a concern in Glacier Mountain Nat�l Park, but not in the Grand Canyon (where you still have to watch your step.) I think its a good idea for anyone to take a good Basic First Aid class (try a local community college), but you should especially learn about this if you are spending time away from medical assistance doing nature photography. I think that a twisted ankle, a tumble down a hillside or hypothermia are situations you are far more likely to encounter (and potentially life-threatening.) <p> As far as deciding where to camp safely and fire rules/etiquette. Well, there are lots of books (REI, Amazon) and lots of opinions (don�t build a fire, fires aren�t bad if you do it right, or tires burn real good). The best thing I can think of for you to do would be to browse a couple of books and see if you like/agree with the content and how it is presented (NOLS books come to mind). Of course, you could always sign up for a NOLS course. An easier way to learn would be meet some people who like to camp (and they seem like sensible people to you), go with them and see what they do. You could go to a store and start buying equipment, but as a photographer you probably know how that works out. That said, exposure (the kind that can kill you, not your photos) is a serious problem when out of doors, so if you don�t do anything else, get yourself a decent compass and an accurate map and definitely learn how to use them. If your outdoor skills need to be developed, knowing how to get back home is a good place to start. <p> If you wish to discuss anything further, please feel free to email me privately.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick_chase Posted November 3, 1998 Share Posted November 3, 1998 My all-time favorite source of information on smart and safe photographic practices would have to be: <p> http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/binky.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_hallett1 Posted November 3, 1998 Share Posted November 3, 1998 If you are a native New Yorker I would advise staying in a nearby motel/campground. Venture out to places where others may be near to help you in case. Read stuff mentioned in above posts. <p> Lg animals ,snakes, spiders and mosquitos are not as forgiving as the avg NY native. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marv_thompson Posted November 3, 1998 Share Posted November 3, 1998 This time of year hunting can be a real concern, I always carry , and this time of year, religiously wear, a safty orange vest and stocking cap. If I even have a hint that someone is around with a gun, any time of the year, I put the vest on. <p> I get checked for a hunting liscense now and then, I don't hunt, but then I don't look like a deer either with the orange on. Don't be fooled into thinking that just because the area is off limits to hunting that you are even remotely safe. Hunters get off track and into the wrong areas, and there are poachers galore that would rather leave you for dead than risk getting caught. My concern is for the poachers, honest sportsmen may make mistakes, we all do, but the criminal element is by far the most dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellen_wilson Posted November 4, 1998 Share Posted November 4, 1998 Tired of reading yet? I used to have the same fears, and actually still do. Wilderness camping takes practice. You will see once you get to where you are going and spend some time there. You will forget some stuff, and chalk it up to not knowing. It is impossible to anticipate everything. Take lots of film, film, film. Especially higher speed stuff you think you won't use, but then wind up pushing! So anticipating light conditions is paramount. Wildlife are more afraid of you then you of them. Take it easy on yourself and don't over do, then you won't have any energy to take pictures. This is a good question, so why don't you go there and tell us about your experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_tsong Posted November 4, 1998 Share Posted November 4, 1998 Al, <p> Some great advice on how to aquire camping skills. But the single most important thing to a.) prevent death and b.) prevent you from getting "in over your head" is hike or camp with other people. Even experienced hikers have to accept some risk if they choose to hike alone. A simple thing like a twisted ankle can be very dangerous if you're alone and 20 miles from the nearest trailhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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