Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay the Hell off topic: WTF?

[fuck]

Okay, so I know I probably shouldn't have put this here, but some of

you may be more finely attuned to my tendencies.<P>

 

I stared at this for 15 minutes. I couldn't decide whether or not to

reply. I want to be helpful, but...<P>

 

Somebody wants a recommendation for a negative film that has

characteristics of a slide film that <I>they've never even seen</I>.<P>

 

Somebody else suggests a film that <I>they've never even used</I>.<P>

 

<A

HREF="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005ZYo">Read

at your own risk.</A><P>

 

I've been visiting this site daily since Aug 13, 2000, when I <A

HREF="http://www.photo.net/shared/community-member.tcl?user_id=241901">registered,

using a now defunct email address, and my <I>real name</I>, even</A>.

My first post was on March 21, 2003. Two and a half years of just

reading the archives. None of my 156 posts are

questions. Almost everything I know about taking pictures (that wasn't

learned by actually taking pictures) was learned somewhere on this

site.<P>

 

I'm not trying to say that I'm some sort of superior being, but J.H.C.

on a stick, the answers to most of the questions in any particular

head have already been answered. Most of those answers exist on this

site somewhere. If there not here, then they're out <A

HREF="http://www.google.com/">there</A> somewhere. Besides, the

internet is a piece of crap anyway. It's mostly conjecture and myth.

You never know if the facts that you base a $5 or $500 or $5000

purchase on are being presented by a 13 year old kid. The best you

can hope for is a general and shaky consensus.<P>

 

The obvious answer to this particular question is for that person to

go buy some film and use it. Repeat as necessary. Like I said, I

want to be helpful, but...<P>

 

I see this sort of thing in real life, too. It pisses me off. I

guess I'm easily irritable.<P>

 

Consider this the thinking man's <A

HREF="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005YJk">"This

forum sucks"</A> thread.<P>

[fuck]

BTW, Robert M. Johnson, I really like your pictures. There was one with a car on a street, with a tree or something. Feel free to post it here.

 

In fact, it would probably be better if this just turns into a random picture free-for-all.

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, begin.

[jbq]

This is just the way all online forums are as they grow more "popular".

 

The "old-timers" have learnt to use the forums and how to search the archives. The more time goes, the more answers are in the archive, the less need there is for new questions, so the flow of questions from old-timers shrinks exponentially.

 

On the other hand, new users get added exponentially, and if each new user posts 3 questions the "noise" that they generate also grows exponentially.

 

Eventually, there are so many questions from newbies that there is no value left for old-timers, who go to another site (initially invitation only), and the original site either disappears entirely or turns into pure noise.

 

 

Yes, it's hard to help everyone. It's also hard to not answer other people's questions when you think you have an answer - but in many cases the answer may just be an opinion or hearsay. Example: I've read many times that XP2 is better than T400CN for traditional darkroom work, and that Portra400BW will likely print better in a color workflow. I've only shot T400CN and consumer Kodak 400 B&W. How many times to I need to read about those films before I become "qualified" to answer questions about them?

[NetR]

Hello Skully

 

> the answers to most of the questions in any particular head have already been answered

 

You are absolutely right. I am a Bessa, Nikon and Kiev 60 user If I have a query about how to get the best out of a particular lens or film, as often as not I find the answer in the Minolta or Canon or Pentax 67 threads. This is because the way you use (for example) a 20mm wideangle is the same no matter what camera you hang off it, and hassles of using 1/30th flash on a Kiev have all been worked out over the last 40 years by Pentax owners. It is all here.

 

I accept that some people are just not very good at doing searches. I see this at work. So there will always be people who ask instead of looking it up.

 

But what frightens me is the apparently large number of people who seem willing to take advice from strangers. Aren't there aenough 50 year old perverts haunting teenager chat rooms to make people even a little bit cautious about what they read on the net?

 

If I ran a camera shop I could have great fun giving subtly wrong advice on the Leica, Nikon, Canon, Minolta, etc fora, just to make people unhappy with their systems and willing to buy something different. Perhaps someone is already doing this - you don't have to read far in any equipment thread to find a strongly stated assertion that is just plain wrong.

 

Regards, Ross

[andrew_lee2]

The trick is to look out for answers/responses from people whose opinions or knowledge you've come to trust.

[fuck]

Andrew:<P>

 

<I>Totally</i>. I've read <B>every single post</b> by the illustrious Mr. J. Spirer.<P>

 

Peter:<P>

 

I'm not really angry. Not really. I ended up answering the question in question after all. I feel like an old curmudgeon sometimes when I think that many people my age (31) and younger just don't know how to do <I>anything</I> for themselves. Forty year old men I work with are like this. It's pathetic.<P>

 

Two wheels is good. One is better. None...well, ouch. Never worked on bikes. Some racing school stuff, chiefed an LMP900 and a Toyota Atlantic, now I build the tranny spacers for the Honda IRL program.

[fuck]

<I>The "old-timers" have learnt to use the forums and how to search the archives.</I><P>

 

<I>I accept that some people are just not very good at doing searches.</I><P>

 

I was new back in 2000. I knew to search. People are just lazy. I had a friend at the racing school (Skip Barber or Skid Harder or Squirrel Harbor, whatever). His name was Sasha (or The Husky, since he was a husky sort, and the fleet vehicle manager had a Siberian Husky named Sasha). Once he asked me how I knew so much about something. Cams, I think. Anyway, I happened to have a magazine handy that happened to have a decent article on camshafts. I gave it to him and told him to read it, and that if he did, he'd understand the basic principles of lobe design, ramp stuff, timing and overlap...all that. He made it through about two photo captions (Captions! Not even the real article!) and told me that his head hurt. He's still a good guy, but he's lazy as hell.

[kevin m.]

Hi Matt, is that you? Racing mechanic, eh? Do you have access to cool parts? Could you, say, slap a Honda IRL motor into a beater Civic and clean up in street racing?

 

Since we're OT anyway, the laziness you describe is everywhere. A lot of kids think a set of 18" chrome rims and an exhaust tip the size of a Folgers coffee can is the ticket to speed. But big wheels weigh a ton and hurt acceleration. No sense explaining, though, better to show 'em your taillights.<div></div>

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

>>>A lot of kids think a set of 18" chrome rims and an exhaust tip the size of a

Folgers coffee can is the ticket to speed. <<<

 

Kevin--it's a known fact in racing that louder is faster. Yellow cars are faster

than any other color. Chrome tools work better than flat black ones. There's

no substitute for cubic inches (actually, that's partially true).

[kevin m.]

Nice work, Peter. Is that a Ducati?

[tom_rand]

So, in one paragraph you state the Internet is "a piece of crap" and then you claim "almost everything I know about taking pictures was learned somewhere on this site."

 

If your thread is "the thinking man's 'This forum sucks'", then put your two comments together and let us know what you "think".

[fuck]

Took you long enough, Tom. You misquoted me, though. I said:<P>

 

<I>Almost everything I know about taking pictures <B>(that wasn't learned by actually taking pictures)</B> was learned somewhere on this site.</I><P>

 

I didn't quantify the amount of knowledge gained from reading the archives here. It wasn't much. I also said:<P>

 

<I>The best you can hope for is a general and shaky consensus.</I><P>

 

That's all I've gotten from photo.net. That information gives me a place to start looking, but ultimately, all the answers to the questions that really matter are already up here in my own noggin.<P>

 

So, Tom, now that I've put together two of my (correctly quoted, I might add) comments, I "think" that your local community college might possibly offer classes in reading comprehension. They might even teach you what "hyperbole" means.<P>

 

Nice try, though.

[fuck]

Kevin, I have a black GTI, too, but mine's a little newer (like a week old), and it sounds like wind when you wood it.

 

I like yours. If I had some money, I'd buy it just to give it a good home.

[fuck]

Peter:

 

We call that "making chips."

 

Kevin:

 

I wouldn't drive a Civic if you gave me one. I better shut up now.

[Tony Rowlett]

I know. Here's a plan. Let's remove EVERY thread from this forum and just start over. It'll be a new learning experience!! :-)

[joel_matherson]

In fairness though the photonet search I have noticed isnt very effective, even recent posts vanish into the abyss. Without knowing to do a better search through another engine newer members naturally ask questions that often have been answered before, simple because one would have to assume the internal search would find everything effectively. But even so there is often a new answer posted by someone else and its interesting to see responses evolve through time. How good is the shutter in an M7 for example when it was first released. Now further down the track opinions have evolved through further use and experience. More often than not posters and readers miss the question the first time and respond the 2nd or 3rd time the same question is posted. If I do feel a topic has been done to death though, I dont open it but someone who hasnt may find the answers very valuable.

[dave_flanagan]

Skully,<p>

Do they use the older motors from the Honda F1 teams in IRL? Or are they completely

different programs? BAR Honda seems so sloooow lately.

[fuck]

Joel, I agree completely that opinions can change over time, and that some technology, especially digital (scanners, printers, computers, etc.) evlove rapidly enough that the consensus from a year, or even six, or even two months ago is no longer valid. <P>

 

Nowadays, if you go to the <A HREF="http://www.photo.net/search/">search</A>, you get a photo.net specific Google search, which is what some of us have been doing all along. <A HREF="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-post-new?topic_id=23">Posting a new question</A> brings up the same Google search, with a recommendation that you use it first. I think it's safe to say that this advice goes largely unheeded.<P>

 

Dave, most of what I'm involved with on a day-to-day basis is of the I-could-tell-you-but-then-I'd-have-to-kill-you variety. I <i>can</I> say that the F1 and IRL programs are completely different things. I'll also say that I miss the turbo V8s. You haven't lived until you've peeked through the dyno window to see the headers glowing so red as to be almost transparent, all the way to the collectors.<P>

 

Kevin, I don't get access to any cool stuff. Once it's been used up, it goes in the locked dumpsters out back.<P>

 

Peter, thanks for the compliment. I like to do my own thing. Like Allen Herbert says, I take the pictures that I want to see. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy the work of others. I just have to be true to myself. Also, like Harvey Platter, I think that a thing is good if you like it, and by "like", I mean that you get something out of it, whether it be insight into the photographer or insight into your own self.<P>

 

And for the record, I know that saying "might" and "possibly" right next to each other is redundant and repetetive, but, irregardless (!), that's often the way I talk sometimes.

[ray .]

It would seem to me Joel's point is valid, from my experience.

 

Aside from that, even labeled off topic, what's an involved discussion of auto/bike mechanics doing on a photo forum? Why not email each other or start your own club instead of adding to the growing clutter here?

[kevin m.]

Ray, because I took a PICTURE of my car with a CAMERA, that's why! It's either this or politics....and we all know what happens to those threads.

 

Tony, you crack me up. That's the funniest thing I've heard lately.

 

Skully, (Why is the theme music to the X-files stuck in my head now?)

a LOCKED dumpster?! Holy crap, if they lock up the garbage where you work, you MUST be important. I would love to see those glowing red headers, just like I love to hear 911 Porches, Shelby Mustangs and V-12 Ferraris accelerating up the straight at Lime Rock. For now, though, one of my chiefest pleasures is doing demonstrations of the relationship between vehicle weight, horsepower and acceleration to people driving 6,000lb. 300hp SUV's. Also, whupping up on chrome rimmed, big muffler Hondas with a trunk full of stereo gear. 140hp ain't much, but neither is 1840lbs. (Did I mention my car is for sale?)<div></div>

[mike dixon]

Skully, you know damn well that people who don't know what

they're talking about give and receive advice from other people

who don't know what they're talking about <i>all the time</i>--

you're just trying to start something.<p>

It seems to have worked well. I wouldn't have expected a moto-

porn thread, but it's fun.<P>

[kevin m.]

Furthermore, Ray, because part of the purpose of a FORUM is to foster discussion and Camaraderie, that's why. There is more to life than pics, you know, and knowing something of the interests and passions of my fellow forum dwellers helps build a sense of community. All within limits, of course. I don't want to know about anyone's sex life, or if they're Star Trek fans...

 

Tony, actually, what I really appeals to me about this particular forum is that it IS a f*cking mess from time to time. You do a pretty good job allowing that to occur without being too heavy-handed. So kudos.<div></div>

[kevin m.]

Mike, better "Moto-Porn" than Porn-Porn, eh? You never did answer me, BTW, do you like the 'dirty' fries at Kebab-Gyros, or not?

[ray .]

My apologies. Go on with it then. In a while I'll post a pic of the dent I put in my Honda trunklid........ or not. ;)

[fuck]

<I>I know. Here's a plan. Let's remove EVERY thread from this forum and just start over. It'll be a new learning experience!! :-)</I><P>

 

I have an idea. How about a <B>photo.net Forums Doomsday Device</B>? When a new member signs up, hit them up for the patron fee, and offer, for a mere $10 more, use of the <B>photo.net Forums Doomsday Device</B> access code. When the forum archives get too cluttered to make any sense of, or too dense and convoluted to get decent search results with, the user may simply type the <B>photo.net Forums Doomsday Device</B> access code into a special field on the login page. The forum archives will then be obliterated, but only for that user. Threads will begin to accumulate from that point onward. Every time a user wishes to invoke the <B>photo.net Forums Doomsday Device</B>, they have to ante up another $10.<P>

 

Just think...<P>

 

Person:<P>

 

<I>What's better, slide film or print film?</I><P>

 

Another person: <P>

 

<I>It depends, but you should really search the forum archives, as this has been answered literally thousands of times already.</i><P>

 

Person:<P>

 

<I>I did search, but since I set off the <B>photo.net Forums Doomsday Device</b> a few second before I posted this topic, there weren't any threads in the archives.... So which is it, anyway?</I><P>

 

Getting to know people can be important. Maybe even as important as getting to know what lens to buy next. Seriously, making this place a little more real can only help matters. The better I know someone, the better equipped I am to enjoy that person's photographs, and the better I'll know whether or not that person's opinions and suggestions are something that I should take to heart, and the less apt I am to make offhanded, inconsiderate remarks about whatever it is about them that's an easy target for picking on. The converse is also true. The more I know about a variety of people and their interests and tendencies, the better I can come to understand my own aspirations and motives. The more I know about life in general, the better I can put it onto film, if that's what I'm setting out to do. So there's your photographic tie-in.<P>

 

Kevin, I would be all over that thing if I hadn't just picked up one of these:<P>

 

<IMG SRC="http://vw.com/art/performance/gti_20th/gallery/gal_lg_gti_4.jpg"><P>

 

'cept in black. Can you say "PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"? I can. You got me on hp to wt, for now. When I get to 300hp/ftlbs, there won't be much on the roads that I can't handle. Not that I would street race, on accounta it's unlegal.<P>

 

The dumpsters are locked to counter industrial espionage. We don't even let the teams touch the engines, save to put them in the cars. If the engine has to be worked on at the track, we kick them out of their own garage! We have two dumpsters now. One for steel and aluminum, and one for mag and ti. Had to, ever since they crushed a motorcycle with a full tank of gas, along with all of our magnesium, and caused a minor explosion. When we used to have one dumpster, we could throw away complete engines. After the last race of the year, we'd take spare engines with <I>no miles</I> on them, and, knowing that the spec wouldn't carry over, jam whole frickin' zillion dollar thing into the dumpster. We used to sling them on the forklift skids, and sometimes, due to spirited forklift driving, they'd fly off and roll across the back parking lot.<P>

 

Mike, it's true that I'm a rabble-rouser and a shit stirrer-upper, but as long as we're on cars, how 'bout that dome light pic, eh? You know the one.