M7 Flare (Continued)

[nick_stefanos]

So today i went and looked at a "demo" model M7 for sale at a local

camera store and the flare problem was obvious when looking through

the finder (even for a rangefinder neophyte like myself).

 

A friend of mine wrote to Leica about this question and was told "the

M7 finder is problem-free" --- as well as the same old story about

how Leica has absolutely no idea what serial numbered M7's have which

finder (but that ones made after Jan 2003 DO have the MP finder).

 

It seems that if anyone at Leica cared about this, they could use

some easy deductive reasoning to at least ESTIMATE which serial

numbers have which finder. Leica must keep some record of which

serial numbers are used and when (otherwise they might reuse serial

numbers!). So at the very least, they could tell us what numbers

were used starting AROUND Jan 2003.

 

OR, Leica-NJ could use their own repair/retrofit requests to try to

answer the question (i.e. "hmmm, 27XXXXX's are being sent back in

droves, and 29XXXXX's are not. I wonder why?")

[charles barcellona www.bl]

Its the language of mis-information.

 

They cant say because it would potentially hurt more sales than it helps.

[george_shihanian]

The reason may be as simple as there was no actual hard date that they can say " From January 10th on all M7s have the new finder." They probably had a supply of the old still on hand when the new ones became available, and they were probably used side-by-side on the production line until they used up all of the older ones. You don't think that they would just throw the old ones out that were on the line just becauase the new ones arrived one day, do you?

 

Then again, they don't actually want to admit there was an improvement done. After all, if there was a problem, it would have already shown up in the past 50 years wouldn't it? So, there was no problem!

[albert knapp md]

If you have a flare-prone M7 call Brenda at Leica NJ before

sending the camera in for a viewfinder change. She recently told

me that they are waiting for a new batch of the MP viewfinders

and that the replacement process could take up to two months.

[lacey_smith4]

well, if we were truly democratically self-motivated, we could report to this forum those that do/do not have a problem, and bracket in on a transition serial number. You had one in your hands today, someone else has one that has no problem, etc.

 

I'm not looking to buy an M7, but someday I might.

[david_n.]

I can relate all too well to your story. When I first heard about the MP finder, I asked

Leica-NJ if they would be doing a recall, and I too was told that there was no problem

with the M7 finder.

 

Then, when I heard that Leica was offering MP upgrades through this forum, I quickly

shipped my M7 off to NJ only to hear back that the parts are on back order. With

Leica, it seems, you better always have a back-up camera.....

[sammer]

It seems Leica is taking the low road here... there are new M7's on store shelves - some with and some without the new finders. Why let the customer know which is which and hurt sales when you can stonewall them before the purchase, and later charge them for the upgrade. Certainly makes more financial sense (albeit much less ethical) than a recall.

 

On the other hand, if they tell you ALL M7 finders are problem free, then send your flaring finder in for repair under your passport warranty. Since flare is a problem, the unit must be in need of repair.

[howard_cummer1]

It was reported on the LUG that cameras after serial number 2,885,000 have the new finder. Supposedly this info came from Leica Solms.

[joe_pelizza_salusso_di_vol]

Once for all: that's not. The number they (directly from Solms) communicated me is 285xxx and this was at the end of february. But the flare free viewfinder may be just a mith related to the type of the finder. The 0.85 one will have always some problems, but not the 0,58. By, Joe.

[henry_ting2]

Leica knows the exact serial # of the improved VF, period. They just don't disclose it. In the same restriction for their dealers, they cannot advertised what serial number they have on sale. The most they can do is disclose the first 3 digits as 123xxxx.

[andrew_hall1]

Contrary to common belief, Leica REALLY DOES NOT KNOW the cut-off serial number, simply because there is NO SUCH THING. BOTH the flaring AND flare-resistant RF's are still being installed for NEW cameras. See this:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=006D27

[henry_ting2]

Andrew, if you insist that Leica does not know the cutoff serial # for their VF, I cannot disprove or prove it otherwise. I just find it hard to believe though. Coming from "IT" manufacturing background, my experience has been, every component and part are tracked throughout the manufacturing process to :

 

Firstly : To enable classifying nonmenclature of parts and inventory to be able to provide service later.

 

Secondly : Working with supplier of components or parts to pinpoint

problems.

 

Thirdly : Enable effectivity of components should there be a QA problem.

 

Fourthly : Most importantly, should there be a safety issue, recalling effective parts can be tracked.

 

Now Leica's product might not be as stringent as for example manufacturers of aerospace products, but nevertheless Germans are particularly comprehensive when it comes to keeping records of anything they produce. All these are just manufacturing 123 and in Leica's situation, the VF is a very important part of its M division to take a slack on it. Again you might have the facts and I'm not debating this. I just find it hard to comprehend.

[fotografz]

"The 0.85 finder will always have some problems" -Joe

 

Joe, IMO this is not true. I have a 0.85 MP, and it is flare free in every shooting

condition I've used it in, as well as flare free in forced test conditions. I cannot make it

flare under the same circumstances which I could totaly white out the rangefinder

patch of my previous M7 0.85.

[george_shihanian]

Henry,

 

You may be employing "logic", but you are not correct. There is a well-known precedent in German manufacture to back me up- Volkswagen. As anyone who ever owned and worked on VW Beetles (the original, not the "New Beetle") knows, the assembly plants used every bit of parts they had on hand, and that meant regularly- just about every year of production- you had parts not changed with the model years, but only changed over when the old parts were used up, many times well into the "new" model year. Sometimes 3 months into the new model year!

 

A BIG BUT- VW certainly knew in what week the changeover was made, and, while not exactly trumpeting this method, they didn't hide or say "We don't know" when pressed on the matter.

[george_shihanian]

Henry,

 

You may be employing "logic", but you are not correct. There is a well-known precedent in German manufacture to back me up- Volkswagen. As anyone who ever owned and worked on VW Beetles (the original, not the "New Beetle") knows, the assembly plants used every bit of parts they had on hand, and that meant regularly- just about every year of production- you had parts not changed with the model years, but only changed over when the old parts were used up, many times well into the "new" model year. Sometimes 3 months into the new model year!

 

A BIG BUT- VW certainly knew in what week the changeover was made, and, while not exactly trumpeting this method, they didn't hide or say "We don't know" when pressed on the matter.

[george_shihanian]

Henry,

 

You may be employing "logic", but you are not correct. There is a well-known precedent in German manufacture to back me up- Volkswagen. As anyone who ever owned and worked on VW Beetles (the original, not the "New Beetle") knows, the assembly plants used every bit of parts they had on hand, and that meant regularly- just about every year of production- you had parts not changed with the model years, but only changed over when the old parts were used up, many times well into the "new" model year. Sometimes 3 months into the new model year!

 

A BIG BUT- VW certainly knew in what week the changeover was made, and, while not exactly trumpeting this method, they didn't hide or say "We don't know" when pressed on the matter.

[jay_.]

I've owned eiher BMW's or MB's since the 70's and while it is true that many parts undergo changes in mid-year, whenever you order a part the parts guy always asks for the VIN# and that determines which part fits your car. Aside from the tiny number of people who read this forum and the LUG, probably very few other Leica buyers even know about the finder change or Leica's upgrade offer. They'll walk into a dealer, buy a pre-MP M7 off the shelf and enjoy it happily--or hate the flare--and not knowing there's an alternative, live with it or sell it. It would certainly not be in Leicas best self-interest to stigmatize all M7's below a certain number because then they'd have them all coming back from the dealers for exchange.

[george_shihanian]

I did try and send my above reply 3 times because I could never get it to give me a confirmation that it went thru successfully, it just froze, leaving me in limbo, or so i thought. I STILL never got one confirmation that it went thru... so I apologize for the triplicate. Maybe the moderator can erase 2 of them...???

[andrew_hall1]

Henry, you are making a big (and incorrect) assumption that all samples of the flaring RF has been used up or it is no longer installed in new cameras. If you read the thread I provided, you'd know that neither is the case. Obviously there are still many such RF's in the parts bin and Solms is not going to write them off.

[nick_stefanos]

Posted on the nikonians "other camera systems" discussion board:

 

http://www.nikonians.org/dcforum/DCForumID14/353.html

 

i wonder which finder came with this one?

[ray_moth]

It wouldn't make a lot of sense for Leica to alternate between the type of RF fitted to M7s. Why would they do that? It would make a lot more sense to use up the old type and then switch permanently to the new type - wouldn't it?

[andrew_hall1]

Ray, don't forget the MP has the flare-resistant finder. If you were Leica, would you keep using all those flaring RF's from the parts bin on the M7 until they are used up (which won't happen for quite some time) so no one will buy any current M7's?

 

Or do you "sprinkle" them with the new RF's to make people believe that any M7 made after a certain serial number (or Jan 2003) has the new finder, therefore such cameras will NOT sit on the shelves collecting dust, even though they may not actually have the new finder?

[ray_moth]

I see what you mean, Andrew, but I wonder if Leica would really believe that their customers might not buy M7s if they thought it still had an old-design finder in it? and would Leica be so crafty as to do that deliberately?

 

When I bought my M7, I couldn't tell (and still don't know) which type of finder was in it but that didn't stop me. I checked the finder in the shop, of course, when I bought it a couple of months ago. I found that I could just about make it flare with a light source above and to the left of the finder (but not visible in the finder) but the flare disappeared if I centred my eye properly. It seemed better than my M6TTLs, so I felt there was a good chance that it had the new MP-type finder. I could be wrong, since there is no way I can check it; however, since the flare in my M7 is minor, rarely occurs and doesn't seem to affect my photography, I don't much care about it.

[andrew_hall1]

>but I wonder if Leica would really believe that their customers might not buy M7s if they thought it still had an old-design finder in it?

 

I do think so. After all, the M7 is a user camera as opposed to the myriad Collector's (or w/f) Editions.

 

>and would Leica be so crafty as to do that deliberately?

 

Why not?

 

Yes, I would try out the M7 before purchase just as you did, side by side with my 0.85 TTL if possible. If the reduced flare of your M7 is acceptable to you, there's really no need to find out whether it has the MP finder, even though it might be due to the better finder coatings only.