Upgrade time: Nikon N80 or used Canon EOS3??

[zelig]

Hi,

 

I have a dilemma. I've been using a Rebel 2000 with bad lenses for

years now and have decided that it's time to upgrade my equipment.

While most of my photography--and money--have gone into quality large-

format stuff, I'm always asked to do jobs with hte 35mm and my

equipment just isn't doing the trick.<P>

 

As a large-format photographer, I guess I'm somewhat of a purist,

which means that I don't really use excessive program modes, eye-

focusing or other things along this line. However, I am looking for

a considerable upgrade from the Rebel. The cameras that most

obviously fall into this spot--and my price range--are the Elan7 and

the Nikon N80. Here is my dilemma:<P>

 

I'd like to stay with hte Canon system, since I"m used to it and

already have some equipment that I could use w/ the new body, ex.

420ez flash, 75-300 USM lens, hoods and filters. The problem is that

the Elan7 doesn't offer a spotmeter(a dilemma spawned from my large-

format habits) and the canon lens I'd buy (50mm f1.8) doesn't offer a

distance scale. Not to mention extraneous stuff I'd never use, like

eye-focusing. <P>

 

Thus, in order to stay with Canon and get what I need, I'd have to

either bypass the ELAN7 and spend much more money than I'd like to on

an EOS3 (and thus more money on things I won't use) as well as more

money to get the 50mm f1.4 w/ distance scale. The plus is that I'll

still be able to use equipment I already have, like my good zoom, my

flash, etc.<P>

 

The other option is to switch to the Nikon N80 which, at $300 bucks,

offers everything I have in the rebel plus the stuff I want:

spotmetering, exposure imprinting (grey market), distance scales on

all lenses, and no dumb program modes.<P>

 

I could sell all of my Canon stuff for about $400, get a new N80 and

two lenses for about $650 and only lose about $250. OR I could buy a

used EOS3, sell my rebel body, lose a bit more money but stay with a

system I know.<P>

 

It seems as if Canon is really going out of their way to dumb down

the photographic community. The absence of spotmeter and distance

scales just baffles me. Maybe they think people will resultantly

plunk down the extra money for the EOS3, thus making more money.<P>

 

Is it really true that Nikon is the real photographer's camera? I'd

love to hear everyone's comments.

[jim_gifford]

Honestly, Nikon and Canon are both terrific, but your post strongly suggests you'd be happier with the N80-based system so you can use spot metering, lens distance scales and so on.

 

If you had TONS of Canon gear your choice would probably lean the other way. As it is, you can back out of Canon stuff pretty gracefully and get the system you prefer.

 

Have fun,

[dan_andrews]

Robert, I'm not too familiar with Canon gear, other than a borrowed camera once ina while. I find the overall build of the Canon bodies to be fairly flimsy (except the EOS-1 series bodies), but again take that with a grain of salt.

 

I am an avid user of the F80s (a variant of the N80) and take it with me when I shoot 4x5. The spotmeter is perfect, and I can shoot Quickloads of Velvia, plus keep a roll of Velvia in the F80s, effectively allowing me to shoot the same image on two different formats. That may seem redundant, but a hunch tells me that it could be useful later.

 

For every 4x5 lens, I made a note of the 35mm equivalent focal length, and then I use that equivalent focal length when spotmereing (under the theory that it will lead to greater accuracy in metering.) Finally, the F80/N80 is light enough that it doesn't add a lot of weight to an LF kit--about the same weight as a 210mm lens, I'd guess.

 

Based on my experience, you're headed ina good direction. If you have other questions, feel free to contact me directly or post them here and I'll try to answer them.

[hugh_t]

Interesting question for the Nikon forum....

 

"Is it really true that Nikon is the real photographer's camera?"

 

I detect a flame war brewing, and lets not let any part of that question get over to the Leica forum. They are very busy deciding whether the 50 'lux or 50 'cron has better bokeh, and if the 35 pre asp or 35 asph is more contrasty at 5.6. I'm glad we in Nikon land don't have to wrestle with such difficult matters.

 

Back to your question, I predict in this forum, and I know I'm going out on a limb here, that you might get a few pro-Nikon posts. The N80 is a great camera, the AF was a little slow for me so I moved up to the F100 but I'm sure you don't really care about that.

 

Get an F80, you know you want the spot-meter, spend another $100 get the 50mm 1.8 and save up the 80-200 2.8 edif and you will be all set and also have full membership in the Nikon forum. You may never find out the answers to the eternal Leica questions I listed above, but you have fun reading unlimited posts about the 24-85 AFGS, and the 18-35 vs the 17-35 zoom. Now go spend some money perk up the economy and have some fun.

[chuck_greene]

Robert,

 

You can buy a used A2 which has a spot meter for the same cost as a new Elan 7. A used EOS 1 or 1N is cheaper than a used EOS 3. Just a thought.

 

A thought a 4x5 was a real photographer's camera, not a small format SLR...

[hugh_t]

Chuck!!!

 

Nice try on the 4x5 being for "real photographers". HCB and Gary Winogrand never did any decisive moment photography with a 4x5 therefore "real photograpers" don't use 4x5 cameras. You really need to get over to the Leica forum, you have alot to learn!!

 

;)

[zelig]

Thanks for the great responses so far. I wanted to add that I'd also be appreciative of comments regarding the whole grey market issue with the N80. I want those exposure imprints! Let me hear your opnions.

[carl smith]

While there's no doubt the EOS 3 is a better camera than the N80, budget is important. However, in favor of the EOS 3, you could get the older 50 mm 1.8 Mk I. I believe it has a distance scale, although the newer lens does not. That would probably save you money over selling all and going to Nikon. Both build durable equipment, particularly if you consider the F100/EOS 3 or the pro bodies. Canon also has USM available on more consumer lenses, which is a big selling point for many amateurs who aren't spending a lot of money. Ultimately though both systems are excellent.

[mskovacs]

The issue with grey market is that Nikon USA will not service this camera on warranty or for any paid repairs. Its only a one year warranty anyway so if you buy from a reputable place than they will cover you during the warranty period.

 

Once you are outside the warranty period, you can still take it to Nikon authorized (or other) servicing centers...you can just never send it to Nikon. Since a major Nikon repair costs more than 50% the buying price of the camera, I wouldn't sweat it.

[chuck_greene]

Hugh,

 

I try to be polite on this forum and avoid making snide remarks but because of your comments directed at me I'll make an exception.

 

My comment "I thought a 4x5 was a real photographer's camera, not a small format SLR..." was a sarcastic crack poking fun at Robert's question "Is it really true that Nikon is the real photographer's camera?". Sarcasm is a concept grasped by many people, I'm sorry that it eludes you. Perhaps you may learn to recognize it one day.

 

I read a number of your posts before I composed this reply. In my opinion you know just enough about photogaphy to be dangerous and certainly not enough to be passing judgement on others. You do not know a damn thing about me or what I do or do not know about photography or it's most famous practitioners.

 

I read some threads on the Leica forum. I read threads on most of the photo.net forums. You should visit the philosophy of photography forum on usefilm.com

[chuck_greene]

Hugh,

 

30 seconds after I hit the submit button it clicked in my head that your last post was most likely sarcastic and not serious. I feel like such a turd right now, and a hypocrite. Especially since I just accused you of doing what I just did.

 

I apologize for my remarks. It's no excuse but as an explanation I am extremely tired right now.

[hugh_t]

No problem Chuck, I was just having a little fun, I certainly hope there are no hard feelings. None on my end for sure. I could not even use a 4 x 5 camera, I need to keep my F100 on P or I'm in big trouble.

 

Keep having fun Chuck!!

[manfred_sadlowski]

<i>Is it really true that Nikon is the real photographer's camera?</i><br><br>

 

Too bold a statement but not totally wrong and has some point I believe. Traditionally Canon packs a lot of features in their camera bodies which look good on paper (like eye controlled focus) which impress the naive guy, on the other hand Nikon focuses on essential features and refines them to excellence (like the 3D flash metering) which is appreciated by the real photographer. If you look Pop Photo's annual photo contest, it looks most of the contestants use Nikons (and they are the newer ones like F80, F100 and F5). This doesn't mean all Canon features are gimmicks and Nikon makes everything excellent, only a very minor difference between brands. In the end you see equally good pictures shot with Canons too.<br><br>

 

N80 is one of Nikon's best bodies built ever, it is too much a camera for the class it was aimed, and imo except for AF it is a direct competitor to EOS-3.

[roto]

I know, it's not relevant, but I find it refreshing to see someone being able to recognize his own mistake and apologize and the recipient of the apology accepting it with humour.

 

It doesn't happen often...

[lex_jenkins]

Robert, I'm a former Canon FD user and fairly recent Nikon manual focus convert. No particular bias, I just liked the value of the Nikon system, particularly the 28/3.5 PC-Nikkor which was the main instigator in my defection.

 

So, that said, between the Elans and N80/F80 I'd give the very slightest edge to the Nikon for the reasons you've already observed. And I prefer the ergonomics of the N80 by a small margin.

 

I'd seriously consider getting the F80s for the exposure data imprinting, if only for my ventures into theatre photography - the camera would be much easier to silence than my F3HP with MD-4 motor drive.

 

However the N80/F80 has one potentially serious drawback - it won't meter with any of my manual focus lenses. I have a fair investment in manual focus Nikkors so I'd have to pick and choose my AF Nikkors very carefully to justify the limitations of the N80/F80.

 

An obvious first choice, for my purposes at least, would be the 35-70/2.8 AF Nikkor. But like many other folks I'm anxious to learn about the performance of the new G series zoom to see whether its optical performance outweighs the compromised construction quality.

 

Another problem, tho', is that for roughly the cost of a new N80/F80 I could buy a good used N90(s). And the N90 will meter with my manual lenses, with some restrictions.

 

Some folks who've owned both EOS and Nikon AF systems swear the Canons have a slight but significant edge in autofocus speed and accuracy. I've only compared them in the stores and see little or no difference. The N80 AF performance is very zippy and positive with little or no hunting even in difficult conditions.

 

One thing I haven't tested is whether the N80 can autofocus from inside a blimp box with the AF assist light blocked. If not that would mean I'm back to manual focus, which again gives an edge to the N90.

[zelig]

Ok. I think I've made up my mind. Now to find a cheap F80s. Adorama is listing it for about $450 while B&H has it for about $470. The rebate apparently doesn't apply since it's an import. Should I try and find a cheaper price or is Adorama going to be the best way to go?<P>

[laurel_basciano]

Go with Adorama or B&H. In my experience they are reliable with quick shipping. If you find a place with a lower price I would be extremely wary, as many internet camera stores are dodgey at best. Pay a little bit more for peace of mind.

[haris_ashraf]

Robert:

 

If you do not mind buying used equipment you can get some great deals from www.keh.com. I bought a used Nikon FA body from them last year and it has worked perfectly.

 

They rated it "Excellent Plus" but other than a few minor scratches on the body it perfromed as good as new.

[Robert_Lai]

Robert<p>

I'm trying to understand your work habits. You use primarily large format cameras. Being used to focusing on ground glass with an upside-down image, I think it a bit odd that you would prefer an autofocus 35mm camera rather than a manual focus one.<p>Second, don't you already own a handheld spot meter of some type? I'm not certain why having one in your camera is so essential. When I'm uncertain, even with my hand-held meter, I just bracket.<p>The point that I'm trying to make is that you may be just as happy with a camera such as the FM2 or the FM3A which are manual focus, have only center weighted metering, but give you full control. They also give you access to a large number of manual and AF lenses (used in manual focus mode of course)

[dan_andrews]

Robert, before you plunk down your cash on an F80s, I should chip in a thought here. I have one, and got it precisely because I wanted exposure imprinting. So I shot a roll of slides and got them back, and ...

 

The slide mounts cover the exposure data.

 

If you mount your own slides, or if you prefer plastic mounts which are easily disassembled, then this isn't an issue. But in my experience, most pro labs use paper slide mounts; they can't be reused. So in order to see the exposure data, you have to take apart the slide.

 

If you shoot negative film or mount your own slides, this is obviously not a concern. But if you were planning on shooting slide film, save your dough and get the N80.

[zelig]

Robert L.,

 

Large-format and 35mm photography are--to me--completely different beasts. One is largely slow and ponderous, the other convenient and versatile. They are different machines for different jobs. Having only manual focus on a 35mm camera is like pedaling a car; it defeats its whole purpose. If I'm shooting a situation that allows me to be slow and ponderous, allowing every shadow to be evaluated and considered, allowing every tree to be checked for convergence, then naturally I'll use large format. If I'm at a public market and want to catch people in alluring candid poses, I'll use the 35mm and its terrific auto focus. The beauty of large format is its purity, not only optically but in process; everything is done from scratch, and all the while in a terrific meditative state. Since it allows so much time for deliberation, the perfect negative becomes the natural goal. Every negative counts.<P>

 

Unfortunately, a drawback of the speed of 35mm and its relatively cheap film is waisted exposures. It becomes too tempting to not think critically and to simply bracket. Yet this is exactly what 35mm is for: being able to record great pictures under any circumstance. And sometimes bracketing is required. Being a LF photographer, however, it's in my blood to cognitize every move.<P>

 

As for the spot meter, using a handheld meter with a 35mm again defeats the camera's purpose. I love using all of my gadgets with my LF camera. But with 35 they simply become cumbersome. However, if I do ever want to pop my 35mm on a tripod and be ponderous, I'll know I have the spot meter on board to be as specific as I want to be.

[d_l1]

Elan 7 does not have eye controled focusing.

 

You could get a A2, a semi pro camera, which has spot metering. You can also use your 420EZ flash with A2. You could get a 50/1.8 mk I, which has a distance scale. Problem solved.

[dan_andrews]

Actually, the Elan 7<b>e</b> has eye-focusing. The normal Elan

7 model lacks this feature. I trawled the Canon forum for a while

to see what people think of this feature, and it seems that people

who understand how to best use eye-focusing like it; others

don't. I for one am glad that Nikon hasn't wasted energy

developing and marketing a similar feature.

[holyexposures]

Robert,

 

Some good comments already posted here.

 

Here's my .02

 

I had a similar dillema last year when I left my manual focus Minolta's to the world of AF. After weighing the options, with Nikon F-80, Elan 7, or Maxxum 7. I chose the Nikon F80. I reckon I would have been happy with any of those choices.

 

As for glass, I would strongly enourage sticking with primes. Especially if you are used to the sharpness of large format photography. If you can afford 2 lenses, I would suggest the AF-D 50mm 1.8 and the AF-D 28mm 2.8. Those Nikkor primes produce super contrast and sharp shots and are relatively nicely priced.

 

Regards,

[lex_jenkins]

Robert, that's the most refreshing and honest opinion regarding the differences between LF and 35mm photography I've read on photo.net from a LF user.

 

Too many LF photographers are so deeply entrenched in that style of photography they can't even conceive of simply allowing a camera to suggest an appropriate exposure, pressing the shutter and capturing the moment.

 

Your comments should be emblazoned in red letters at the top of some photo.net forums.