Sinar vs Arca Swiss as a complete *system* for still life

[psychophoto]

This is a question of one system compared to another, those systems being Sinar and

Arca Swiss, the application being studio work in 4x5 and probably using digital

capture after a point. Love it though I do, my Linhof Bi Kardan is starting to feel a

little limiting now, at least in the scope of doing still life, product, etc professionally

starting in the next few years. The proper accessories (additional standards,

extension rails, etc) are just too hard to find and too expensive when you can find

them, given that they're all used and are a good 25-30 years old by now. Not having

yaw-free movements is also getting annoying.

<p>

And so now I'm trying to research and compare Arca and Sinar at the system level,

trying to decide what, in the long run, would be my best option. In terms of specific

cameras, it's the Sinar P/P2/X vs. an Arca M-line 4x5. Having played with both, the

Arca seems a little more comfortable to me, though the Sinar isn't bad by any means.

Neither is cheap, though one certainly seems to be able to find a lot more used Sinar

gear than Arca stuff. Both are extremely capable systems, and they have their strong

and weak points, but at this point I haven't been able to use either extensively

enough to explore those things in depth, and won't be able to prior to purchasing.

<p>

And so, once again I look to the good people here for answers. From the perspective

of shooting mainly still life and product in the studio, does anyone here feel that one

system has any particular advantages over the other? And, again, we're talking on the

level of an entire system, including various accessories, add-ons, etc. Does one seem

to be any more capable or appropriate as a platform for shooting digital than the

other? What other factors should I be considering here? Is there another system that

I'm an idiot for not considering? [note, however, that I've arrived at these two after

much research and deliberation]

<p>

I don't want to say that cost is no object, since cost is always an issue at some level,

but given that I'll be making this investment as a business/career-related thing, cost

is certainly less of an issue than if this were just for a hobby. In other words, I've

come to terms with the fact that I'm going to probably have to sell a kidney to finance

this, so pursuing options to cut cost at the expense of the ultimate usability and

function of the camera system isn't really necessary. Thanks in advance for any

thoughts you might have.

[capocheny]

David,

<p>

You didn't specify where you live in your message. If you live in

Canada...Arca Swiss is definitely NOT the system you want to go

with because there is NO support on this product here. Sure, you

can order it, but you'll have to wait until the cows come home

before you receive the item(s). If you live in the US, from my

understanding, it's less of an issue.

<p>

Secondly, I own and use a Sinar X. The question for you is

whether you're going to move into 5x7 or 8x10 formats. One

person said that the Sinar X has no format interchangeabilty and

another said there was...perhaps, someone in the know could

comment on this point.) If you are, then the X may not be the

system for you. I don't intend to move up to either 5x7 or 8x10 in

the future. I would recommend the P2 if this is an important

option for you either now or in the future. The P2 is significantly

more expensive than the X.

<p>

I hear what you're saying about Yaw. Having a yaw-free camera

is pretty handy when you're using both tilts and swings at the

same time. Of course, this happens a lot in close-up/still life

photography. You'll find that the Sinar X and P2 are both yaw-free

cameras (within limitations). I'm sure someone will come along

and say that "sometimes, yaw-free isn't yaw-free" under certain

circumstances.

<p>

Finding the ideal depth-of-field and plane of sharp focus is a

bonus feature of the Sinar system. I can't say, one way or the

other, whether this feature is available to the Arca Swiss system,

or not (Again, someone may wish to comment on this point). In

the Sinar system, they've developed a 2-point focusing system

that is a delight to use. It's not to say that there still aren't

challenges though...in spite of what the brochures and manuals

state. In other words, the system isn't quite a slam-dunk process

whereby you follow the proceedures and wham...there it is! A

perfect location of the plane of sharp focus. (If this is what it's

suppose to do, I hope someone will comment on my point...just

in case I'm missing something here.)

<p>

As for cost... neither system is inexpensive. You'll have to pledge

your first-born for either system. However, you're right in your

observation that there tends to be a lot more used Sinar gear on

the market than Arca Swiss. I managed to buy both a Sinar X and

a F2 from a dealer in Arkansas for a great deal. The systems

were both brand new in box...He had it listed on ebay and I was

fortunate to end up with both at a fraction of the price.

<p>

I've yet to see any high end Arca Swiss cameras on the block to

date. I had also considered an Arca Swiss Metric but they just

weren't available here in Canada... a pity!

<p>

BTW, with respects to cost. In case you aren't entirely happy with

your decision, you should also think about the value of the gear

in the re-sale market down the road. Some systems naturally

command a higher resale value...just like a Lexus or Mercedes

or Ferrari! It's all a matter of supply and demand, isn't it?

<p>

One of the "pros" for Sinar is that "all" of their accessories have

been designed to fit all of their cameras. What fits on the X/P2/F2

will also fit on the "oldie but goodie" Sinar Norma. You can't

claim that on a lot of other camera systems!

<p>

I'm glad that you recognized the X and P2 to be "studio" cameras

because they weigh a ton! You need a personal Sherpa to carry

one of these "big boys!" You'll also need one for a sturdy tripod

and another for the accessories if you ever want to take it into the

field.

<p>

With regard to Sinar... there are some guys you'd buy from on

ebay...and there are guys you'd do better to stay a hundred miles

away from. It truly is caveat emptor or buyer beware! The fellow I

purchased my Sinar F2 and X from has since gotten out of

selling Sinar gear. Of course, he'll be more than happy to sell

you a Hasselblad H1. I also purchased a brand new Sinar Auto

Aperture unit from him for less than a 1/4 of the market price

from him. I was sorry to see him get out of marketing this

particular product line.

<p>

You should also visit the Sinar site (http://www.sinarbron.com/

sinar.htm) for further information about the digital options

available. I think they're the leaders in the field for "matched

systems" at this time. Of course, this is not to say that there

aren't 3rd party digital backs available such as Leaf, Phase One

and others. BTW,,,if you think the camera system itself is costly,

wait until you look at the cost of some of these digital backs.

Make sure you have more than just a kidney to sell when looking

at one of these backs! As a pro... you'll have to be making a lot of

money before justifying one of these beauts (cost-benefits

analysis.) They run in the neighbourhood of half a Lexus ES300!

(Yes, prices will come down in the future and they'll become

much more accessible to the average user. As to when...who

knows?)

<p>

As I'd mentioned above...the Arca Swiss metric would have been

my other serious consideration. It has all the movements that

one could/would use either in the field or in the studio. And, its a

tad bit lighter than the X. If only it weren't for the lack of

distribution/service here in Canada....

<p>

Speaking of gear...I'm surprised at your comment with regards to

the Linhof Kardan BI camera. I'm sure there are a lot of pros out

there that would argue with you about its limitations. The Linhof

system has been around for a very long time and many, many

pros are still using them in their everyday practice. They are well

built and have unlimited accessories available. IMHO, they are a

beautiful camera as well. I would think that there are people on

this site who will concur with me on this issue. As for digital

connectivity with cameras in the Linhof system I'm sure that Bob

S will be a wealth of information.

<p>

I also considered the Linhof 6x9 system when I was looking at

the Sinar. I don't know why, but I didn't look at the Technikardan

system....one of life's little mysteries! But, do take a look at these

two cameras as well. If you do your due diligence you'll end up

with the best camera available for your needs.

<p>

One of the best things you could have done for yourself...you've

already done! There are some imminently qualified people on

this site who are willing to share their experiences/

recomendations with you. You might also check Q-Tuan Luong's

site for further suggestions.

<p>

If you're just learning LF...both Q-Tuan and Bjorn Nilsson are just

great people to chat with. They're kind enough to share their vast

knowledge with you on subject matter of all nature related to LF

photography. Their website is http://

www.largeformatphotography.info/

<p>

Hope all this helps you in your decision...

<p>

Cheers

<p>

[bob_salomon]

"my Linhof Bi Kardan is starting to feel a little limiting now, at least in the scope of doing

still life, product, etc professionally starting in the next few years. The proper accessories

(additional standards, extension rails, etc) are just too hard to find and too expensive

when you can find them, given that they're all used and are a good 25-30 years old by

now. Not having yaw-free movements is also getting annoying. "

 

But you will have yaw free movements and telescoping rails with a GT or GTL from Linhof.

And, with the GTL you will also have continuously variable assymetric movements + center

tilts + base tilts + AMS DOF control for computing DOF at 7 image ratios rather then at

one.

 

And both of these cameras accepts all of the B lensboards, back accessories and

compendiums.

[armin_seeholzer]

Hi David

 

I have a Arca F-Line because I'm working more outside then inside of the studio. So for me the wight was the main reason for the Arca!

If I would almost only work in my studio it would have been the Sinar P2. If I would work around Munich then it would maybe be a Linhof who knows. And if I would life and work in Japan then it could be the Horseman or the Toyo also.

But you are living in USA I think then I would go the Sinar route!

[james_driscoll2]

from a professional standpoint- I would be more inclined

towards the sinar for several reasons.

 

linhof (monorail) and arca are both great cameras, but are not

used as much as sinar in the usa by professionals.

 

what this translates into is several things:

 

1. renting- you are not going to find any arca or linhof accesories

in any rental house- unless you have $15,000 to lay out right now

on everything you need (rails, reflex viewers, bellows, rail

stabilizers, boards, etc.) you will have to rent something in the

near future for professional usage. most rental houses don't

even have LENS BOARDS for linhof monorail cameras and

arca......

 

2. repair and loaner cameras- there are a lot more authorized

sinar repair facilites in the USA than there are Arca and Linhof

ones. Your turnaround time to get a P2 fixed is going to be much

faster than getting a GTL fixed (I don't care what bob s. says).

Also, getting a loaner camera while yours is down is going to be

a lot easier.

 

3. Ease of buying and selling used- just look at ebay or any of the

dealers pricelists for the answer on this one.

 

4. As the above thread mentioned- used studio accesories

abound for sinar. Extension rails, intermediate standards, rail

clamps, and even the strange esoteric sinar stuff abounds on

ebay and dealers shelves.

 

5. The bottom line is go with what you want- there are lots of

professionals using Arca and Linhof, but a lot more are using

Sinar. Just think for a minute, it is not just marketing!!!

 

6. As an example, over the years think about how many

professional photojournalists used cameras (since 1959

anyway) other than Nikon and Canon. Sure there were a few

using Pentax, and even fewer using Minolta. Its the same thing

with view cameras, just switch the brands around.

There is a reason for everything, just think about it a minute.

 

I am a professional architectural photographer who uses a Sinar

F2, and when I broke some stuff in Paris on a job- I was able to

replace it quickly and cheaply. There is only one Large Format

store in Paris, and they only Arca stuff they had was from 1977.

And the only Linhof monorail they had was a monster 8x10

Kardon Color from the early 1960's. Yet they had lots of sinar

cameras and accesories in stock, both new and used.

 

From Paris to New York to Texas to Japan- you will find Sinar

equipment in the rental houses and in stock in the shops. The

same does not go for other brands. This is a very big deal when

you are a working pro.

 

Don't think you will never leave home- I thought the same thing

about my business, there are plenty of times even for still life

guys when the client will want you elsewhere. You MUST factor

breakage in, and the downtime associated with it. Remember

time is money, and your reputation is at stake.

 

As for digital- all you need is a graflock back. but sinar's expolux

shutter is the way to go with digital. it doesn't make much sense

IMHO to use between the lens shutters with $30,000 digital

backs.

 

 

james

[john_cook1]

If you are a very technical and methodical personality type, the Sinar P2 is perfect for you in the studio. It is much, much too over-engineered for location work, however.

 

On the other hand, if you intend to earn a living (profit) from studio photography, I would very strongly advise taking a hard look at the Sinar price list (which is out somewhere in La-La-Land!).

 

Earning money with a Sinar-equipped studio is like trying to plow snow with a Rolls Royce.

 

I believe there are many excellent brands (like Toyo) which sell for a more reasonable price.

[psychophoto]

Thanks for all the good answers so far. As for Toyo cameras - I've used them for the

last 3 years here at school and the whole system still seems counterintuitive to me in

basic operation. Not so much the camera's fault, it just doesn't fit my internal logic.

[cxc]

If I were you I would also consider the Linhof GTL, because of its variable-axis movements. This sounds tremendously intriguing to me, I'd try to find one to play with.

 

CXC

[dave_anton1]

Dave,

I use the Sinar system, but I am now considering the Fuji GX680 with movements for studio and fashion. It will not give you the same range of movements that a large format MonoR will give you, but there are many advantages to using it as a studio camera. I have tried them and they allow me to work alot faster, film is easily loaded and available almost anywhere and I get the bonus of movements that I need for commercial work. I can also scan the images on my Nikon 8000. Before you plunge into a new LF system , consider this option. You might like it.

[bob_salomon]

"the best bang for buck"

 

No "the best bang for buck" in the U.S. is the Linhof Kardan M which you can buy new for

about $650.00.