alex_tudor Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I'm curious as to what others think the successor to Canon's 1Ds will have be. What improvements will it have? Will it be cheaper? I think we all can pretty much agree that the 1Ds is THE top DSLR at the moment (forgetting top fps which belong to the 1D). It costs a LOT of money ($8000), and so people are naturally holding back waiting to see what happens. Well what will happen? I personally think that the "2Ds" (let's call it) will come out end of 2004, and it will have the following benefits: 1. More MP. Perhaps around 17-20MP. The "XDs" will always be Canon's top MP camera and it will compete with all other top MP DSLRs. 2. More fps. Perhaps 5-6, but NOT more than the 1D or the "XD" which will always be Canon's top fps camera (with less MP than the "XDs"). 3. Software improvements like the 10D got. Things like lower ISO noise, vertical orientation, better LCD, etc. 4. A better mechanism to keep dust out. This is really what I see. I don't know what else they would add. Now how will Canon price this? It can go two ways. 1. It can come down in price to $5000 and make the 1Ds "obsolete", just like the 10D did to the D60. But Canon may offer a price rebate to current 1Ds customers since they paid a lot. Also if they make it $5000, then the "XD" (which I think will come out end of 2003), will have to be around $3000-$3500. 2. It will cost $8000 still, and the 1Ds will come down in price. Less likely perhaps. So how important are those potential features? Personally I would only care about software improvements and a better "dust-out" mechanism. 11MP are enough for me, and I don't need more fps for my shooting. But even those two features don't seem to add that much. The big one is the price! So for me the main reason for not buying a 1Ds today (and getting a 10D for a while) is due solely to price! I do NOT believe that the "2Ds" will be so much better or that Canon will come out with a $2000 DSLR that will smoke the 1Ds by any means in the next years. But a lot of people seem to. What do you guys think? What can this magical 1Ds successor be and how will it be priced so that it doesn't compete with other products? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citizensmith1664875108 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I think what to call it is their biggest problem. They've locked themsleves into this 1D? scheme and picked S, just 7 letters from the end of the alphabet, and some of those letters are pretty lame. Nobody would go for a 1Dw. In fact the successor is probably sitting on a shelf while the marketing folks try to figure out a way out the hole they dug themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean1 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I had heard somewhere that the price of the 1Ds was supposed to fall towards the end of the year. Of course, I have no way to prove that but it's just something I over heard. ;) $5k was mentioned. 8) sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliver_s. Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 "0.5Ds", by no means "2Ds"! Keep in mind that in the EOS system, high-ranking models are assigned small numbers. Admittedly, "-1Ds" would also be possible.<p>Seriously, I can conceive of a 1Dv with 11 Mp, 8 fps up to 36 frames (hey, memory's growing fastest!), noise reduction that can be switched off, vertical orientation sensor, a host of minor improvements, and a sensor that's automatically powered off if you press the lens removal button and powered again the moment another lens is mounted firmly. That's the only way to keep dust limited I can imagine as feasible, and it still has a number of problems...<p>What I'm really waiting for is the Canon eye implant with a 15mm f/2.0 (= 50mm in 35mm format), a 6 Mp sensor with sensitivity betwenn ISO 1 and ISO 128,000, AF and IS via eye muscles, exposure control via the visual cortex (shutter speeds from 1/2 sec. to 1/16000 sec is OK with me), and the accessory line which includes ultra-high-rez binoculars so you can really exploit that sensor's capacities. And firewire interface for the brain to computer connection, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_van_hulle1 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Yeah, Oliver, but where you gonna get that lo-tech cyber-dolphin to get those images out of your brain when you have a buffer overflow. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_engle1 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 How about Bluetooth or 802.11g built in or as an option in place of/in addition to the existing firewire connection. That way you can shoot away, while your "XDs" automatically downloads to your image server..... Consider the convience of this while shooting in the studio. You could actually be taking pictures while an image editing assist retrieves the images and does prelimiary editing/croppings, etc. Great workflow improvement. How about making the LCD display flip out ala the G3? How about a bigger/better LCD display. Rumors persist about an "EOS-3D", based upon the existing EOS-3, so possibly add ECF to the "XDs"? Do we really need 45 autofocus points? One of the first things that is taught to students of photography is the rule of thirds. How about 5 autofocus points, 4 set up for rule of thirds, the 5th in the center (just like the Contax DSLR) and make them ALL horizontally AND vertically sensitive, just like the current center sensor in EOS bodies. It would be nice to make the "XDs" such that one could swap out the CMOS or CCD with a more advanced (more megapixel and/or lower noise) sensor in the future. How about the ability to swap out the slower CMOS sensor for a speedy CCD sensor. That way you could put on the faster sensor and go shoot sports, then swap out for the high image quality CMOS sensor and shoot portraits for instance. It would also be nice if the interface were such that software could be downloaded in order to improve funcationality, instead of having to wait for the next body to arrive in order to overcome some design "flaw" or limit. (Consider that you can upgrade Photoshop without necessarily having to upgrade your PC). So maybe a more generic image "engine" that lenses, sensors and software can be attached / downloaded to. Effectively, a Canon "Image PC". This sort of treads into the medium format style of cameras, where various components can be swapped in an out, but the basic "camera" remains the same. How about the ability to take images in TIFF format, as opposed to getting them in RAW using Canon's software and then converting them to TIFF. JPEG's are nice, but one has to be wary of the compression loss issues. How about the ability to see how many times the shutter has been cycled (kinda like an odometer for your camera). Would make buying used cameras a little less mysterious.... I'm sure that there are scads of other ideas out there that could be implemented on the next generation flagship model. Hopefully, Canon will not deprive those of us with smaller wallets, and migrate the current flagship down in price once the new model arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_tudor Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 I don't think the 1Ds line will be geared towards high FPS. That will always (IMO) be in the 1D line. 1Ds line = highest quality (most MP)1D line = fastest FPS (lower MP)10D line = consumer digital Those are their 3 lines and I don't see any overlaps happening (why compete with each other?) nor do I see a 4th addition. What would that be and how would they price it (and again why compete withing their own products?) To me the 1D and it's successor IS the EOS 3 DSLR equivalent. The 1D will get replaced next IMO. It will probably get a full sized sensor and other things, but not 11MP. Prices would probably be $5000 for Ds line, $3000-$3500 for D line, and $1000-$1500 for the consumer line for a while. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Combining high resolution, full-frame chip, and fast framing rate are impeded only by the write-speed of the media, which is improving. Undoubtedly soon there will be no need for separate cameras to accomodate them. Canon will eventually have the same lines of DSLR's as film bodies: entry, pro, and 1 or 2 in between. The question is only how many interim bodies there'll be as they piece out the technology to milk as much profit as they can from impatient users. Meanwhile I'm shooting film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_tudor Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 John, You bring up some good ideas. I really think that DSLR bodies will eventually become "commodities". Sort of like computers. One will have to replace their body every couple of years to stay current. Why not? That's how digital technology is. Also I think that we need to think oustside of the 35mm film world too. With DSLRs we could have ALL sorts of new and neat things, but they won't be cheap. There will never be a right time to buy sort of - just like with computers and other electronics. I guess buying an $8000 1Ds now makes as much sense as buying a $3000 xDs in the future. Sure that camera will be beter and cheaper, but at that point in time you'll face the same issue. Should I wait?, etc. $8000 IS a ton of $ for a camera, but the 1Ds is as good as film, if not better at times. So it's not like buying a "concept" camera. One could really USE this thing for a LONG time. I think the 1Ds was/is THE breakthrough DSLR. It will go down in camera history as a first. Kind of neat if you think about it. Also Canon will have to be sure not to compete with itself. They have different cameras for different market segements and they sell. So why do away with that model? It works for them. Where's the competition so far? None really. Canon is at the front of the DSLR market. Kodak blew it with their 14MP DSLR it looks like. So Canon is still ahead. Nikon should come out with something. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_macman Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 That's pure sci-fi. Quite frankly, I think nobody wants more MP that the 1Ds. Theory says the a 35mm frame contains the equivalent of 18 MPs, but how many people really want to get even close to that limit ? Even the 1Ds owners, how many print [let's call them ] 11.1 megadots? :) Very few I suppose. The vast majority still do magazines or so, which result in the "compression" of most of the acquired information... For maniacs and masochistst there's already the 22 MP Sinar film back. Besides, nobody wants to wrestle with 200 mb files anyways :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_macman Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 >>>>>>>>>> How about Bluetooth or 802.11g built in or as an option in place of/in addition to the existing firewire connection. Come on, guys. Get real. Bluetooh? that's so damn slow that the only thing it's useful for is to transfer phone numbers between a Palm and a cell phone :-) Do you really want to wait half an hour to transfer one full-frame digi shot? :) 802.11g ??? Is Canon going to bother to make a wireless connection for a digicam? I doubt it. Besides, how many ppl posess the infrastructure? USB is standard while FireWire is almost standard. You'd have to spend 200$ or so on a 802.11g machine. Pointless.... However, what the next Canon DSLRs will probably include is the IEEE 1934b standard , which is double speed FireWire (that's 30x USB 1.0), already standard on most Mac computers :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_hawkins Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 My biggest need is for ISO 3200 sensitivity. Second priority is $5k or less price. More megapixels is low on my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron c sunshine coast,qld,a Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Th rumoured D3 will likely be a full frame high tech body without the toughness/weather resistance(and cost) of the 1 series-just like the eos3 is now in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eos 10 fan Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 <i>"0.5Ds", by no means "2Ds"! Keep in mind that in the EOS system, high-ranking models are assigned small numbers. Admittedly, "-1Ds" would also be possible.</i> <p> It makes sense then that the new body will be called the EOS 0Ds <br> pronounced: od·eos or odi·ous <b>;)</b> <p> -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_macman Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 >>>>>>>>>> Th rumoured D3 will likely be a full frame high tech body without the toughness/weather resistance(and cost) of the 1 series-just like the eos3 is now in fact. Again, this is one more thing which makes a D3 totally irrelevant. Full-frame nowadays is handicapped by a lower shutter speed, hence making it confined in studios for portraiture and such. Most 1Ds owners do not need hyperthough water-resistent cameras. Heavy shooting must not be confused with torturing a camera in photojournalism or next to a red carpet. The 1Ds is not made for people who go "out there" and those who do need to go "out there" most likely also own a 1D. I don't know if the 1Ds is actually water-proof, I suppose it is (the price tag makes it obligatory, not the purpose of the camera :-), but making a D3 version of it w/o the sealing is plain stupid. Too much feature overlap among D-EOS models, which is why I'm sure that there won't be such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron c sunshine coast,qld,a Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Actually Macman,those features would make it MORE relevant,as you argued yourself.It would be the 1Ds that would be the one that doesn't fit anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_tudor Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 <i>Full-frame nowadays is handicapped by a lower shutter speed, hence making it confined in studios for portraiture and such.</i> Can you elaborate on this? I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. Why would a full frame CMOS handicapp a camera and make it more for studio use? Are you talking about it having only 3fps? If so I agree, but that in NO way is a handicapp for studio only! My Elan7 is 3fps and I do NO studio work. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_tudor Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Sorry actually you are talking about shutter speeds, etc. I still don't understand your point. Why can't a 1Ds be used outside in the rain, etc.? Why confine it to studio use? Please explain. Thanks, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlegaspi Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 greater ISO range...and bluetooth or 802.11 support...no more friggin' CF cards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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