Which Medium Format to Purchase ?

[brian_keller]

Hello .... I've been shooting 35mm but would like to add a medium

format to my collection. I realize this is a broad question, but can

anyone recommend a camera that is not overly expensive and not overly

expensive to maintain (ex. lens/parts etc..), that is very nice to

hold and use and what to watch out for when buying a medium format.

I'd like an exchangeable back on it - I was thinking Bronica?

Also, I assume only the more expensive cameras are flash cord

compatible to work with monolights/strobes? Thanks for any advice

and I do apologize for such a general basic question, however, these

boards have been very useful for me in getting feed back prior to

purchases - thanks again!

 

Brian.

[harry_zet]

for the price of a hassy-back you can buy a nice clean rolleiflex tlr

- it has everything you need, except interchangeable back, and

will hold its value. i would try this first - you can alsways buy a

bronica afterwards (but i doubt you will)

[bas1]

I agree with the poster above on the Rolleiflex TLR. You can't go wrong with them. I have two Hassies and still want one because of size and handholdability. Due to the absence of a mirror you can handhold far longer then a Hasselblad.

 

If you don't need TTL flash you can pick-up an older Hasselblad 500C/M for a good price these days. Very versatile camera.

[richard_cochran]

I won't address the broader question, but only the item about

monolights/strobes. Any camera that can take a standard

flash can work with a monolight or studio strobe system.

All that's needed is a PC sync outlet or a hot shoe, plus

some ability to control aperture, or at least to know what

aperture the camera will use. Even the laughable Holga

can be used with studio lighting. The only cameras that don't

work well with strobes are a) cameras that have no flash capability

whatsoever or b) cameras with integrated automatic

computerized electronic flash systems that use pre-flash

for exposure determination with no manual overrides.

<p>

Some modern P&S cameras, both digital and 35mm, fall

into the latter category. I'm not aware of any

medium format camera ever made that doesn't work with

studio strobes. Somebody may come up with one,

but it's not likely to be one you would have considered.

[canon man]

Bronica is a very wise choice. I just bought a Bronica ETRS with AEII finder and 75mmlens, two backs, speed grip and a nice bag for $535. I have since added a 50mm and 150mm lens a rotary and waist level finder with other stuff. The lenses and other accessories are very inexpensive, and I prefer carrying it over my EOS 1N in the feld. The image quality is easily better than my EOS L glass. You can pick up a body, AE finder and speedgrip for around $500 including the 75mm lens and back in that price.

 

I consider mine a capable enough camera that my 35mm is now an afterthought to pursue after I get my large foramt. Later on a I will replace the long L glass I sold to get my Bronica, but for now the MF does all Ineed it too for a very nice price. The leafshutter lenses sync at any speed which is nice for fill flash, and the speedgrip gives you such a grip as to knwo the camera will not slip from your hands as your navigating logjams to get that perfect shot.

[derek_stanton2]

I'm going to make an initial comment that will upset a lot of folks, but i still believe it

to be true. Top pros do not use Bronica. I will say nothing about the results from

Bronica cameras, as i've never used one. I also don't know that anyone can reliably

discern a Bronica image from a Hassy image. But, that isn't really the point of the

statement. I'm sure there are a large number of professional photographers who use

this brand, but the same can also be said of Alien Beens, and Novatron strobes. They

are 'budget' alternatives, which may suit your purposes well.

 

But, you can be reasonably sure that the photographers shooting major ad

campaigns, or editorial work, or fashion images, or top commercial assignments are

using either Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax, Rollei, Contax, or Fuji gear for medium

format. That said, the reason why i'd not consider Bronica is that, if you're serious,

you will eventually want to 'trade up' into one of these other brands. It seems more

prudent to me to buy into the system now, instead of losing money later. You can get

top quality gear USED for good prices. And, if you buy from trusted dealers, and buy

equipment known for reliability, you should feel comfortable with USED purchases.

 

You haven't said what kind of photography you want to do, aside from incorporating

strobes. Although i agree that the Rollei TLR is a super camera (i have one), it's not

very versatile. No interchangeable backs or lenses. You can't use Polaroid backs with

it, which is critical for studio work.

 

You first have to decide what format you want/need/feel comfortable with. 6x4.5,

6x6, 6x7, 6x9. Pentax 645s don't have interchangeable backs for polaroids or

different film emulsions. Neither do Pentax 67s, but you can buy a separate body and

dedicate it for use with Polaroid. That's what a huge number of fashion photogs do.

The bodies aren't so expensive to make that prohibitive.

 

Hasselblads are modular, but there are two series (500 and 200), and not all lenses

work with total functionality on the 200-series. And, only the (new) 200s have

metering built in. You can, though, use metering prism finders, but they aren't

coupled to the body, so you still have to make all the settings.

 

Mamiya makes excellent 6x7 cameras. The RZ67II, especially, is amazing. But, it's

quite large. Not really great for location work, unless you have a crew. They also

make 645s in AF and MF versions. I had the 645AF, and quite liked it. The Manual

Focus version(s) is quite compact, and offer everything you're likely to need at that

image size.

 

Rolleis are a complex topic. The 6000 series is completely modern. Does everything.

The lenses are widely recognized to be tops in class, and you have the choice of Zeiss

or Schneider. But, strangely, these cameras are extremely popular (moreso than

Hassy?) in Europe, but not in the US. In fact, it's difficult to get any positive feedback

from a pro-level NYC dealer about Rollei. You'll have to ask them why yourself. I have

nothing negative to say about the cameras.

 

The Contax 645 is a great camera, except for one major problem - battery life. I

haven't owned one, but apparently users are dissapointed in the extreme power

drain. There are reports that you can get only 5-10 rolls out of a $10 battery. But,

they do offer an auxiliary battery grip which is said to improve the situation. But, it

does come at the expense of size, but it may enhance the ergonomics....

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "maintaining" the camera. Parts? Lenses can get

very expensive, especially the german stuff (Hassy, Rollei, Contax). Pentax is pretty

inexpensive. Mamiya is in the middle.... You may notice that 'normal' lenses are kinda

cheap, but when you want to expand your range, prices go up exhorbitantly. Since

budget is a concern, look at the prices of lenses you will want next. And, always

check ebay.

 

Also, you may have to decide if digital compatability will be an issue. I'm not aware if

Bronica can even work with digital. Pentax can't since there are no interchangeble

backs. Hassy, Rollei, Contax, and Mamiya all do work with digital.

 

I recommend visiting a top level pro store and handling as many as you can. But, first,

i would identify your needs more clearly. You should also read the user camera

reviews on www.photographyreview.com to see the real-world issues and how users

cope with them.

 

Also, although any of the brands i've mentioned will give you sharp images, the

various lenses do render imagery differently. Users will speak of things like contrast

and microcontrast and bokeh rendition. Depending on what kind of photography you

will be practicing, these issues may be of paramount importance to you. In fact, had i

recognized earlier the importance of bokeh to me, i wouldn't have wasted so much

time and money going through three medium format systems. Now that we have the

internet, there are so many resources for imformation.

[jim_seaman]

Well, I guess I have to disagree with the prior post... (Shhh... don't tell him, because I like his work! :) )

 

If you are just trying it out you will probably not buy exactly the right camera the first time, unless you are better at choosing than all those people with medium format's for sale in the classifieds and on ebay...

 

I would go with one that is functionally good, in the format (645, 6x6, 6x7 or whichever) you think that you want and will not break your bank if/when you sell it. Rollei's are great choices. They are versital and fun and you may end up keeping it even if you move to another system later. The most important thing (imho) is to get used to the format. You might find that you hate it or that you'd rather have a square or a longer rectangle. None of those things are necessarily apparent when looking at the cameras in the shop but will occur to you after a few weeks or months of shooting. If you are not into it for a lot of money you will probably get most of it back when you want to sell it. (the ratio of interested buyers for your camera seems to be directly inversly proportional to the cost of the camera - from my experience anyway!)

 

While it is true that most pro's don't shoot Bronica, it doesn't mean that they don't produce good images. I drive a nissan, since it does everything I need it to do and I can afford it. Would I drive better with a Ferrari? Maybe, but probably not without a lot of practice. Would I shoot better with an expensive camera system? (Knowing me, probably not, but then I'm far from a pro.)

 

If you are unsure at all, don't spend lots of money on gear. If you are going to spend a lot, try to rent similar stuff first to make sure you are not making a costly mistake.

 

An in-expensive used tlr or rangefinder is a good way to try out medium format and if you buy a decent one (Rollei, Mamiya Press, Koni Omega, etc.) you should get quality results.

 

Good luck,

 

Jim

[photog630]

Brian:

I would also like to recommend the venerable Rolleiflex TLRs. I use a Hasselblad 500C/M, a Mamiya C330F, and a Rollei for my medium-format needs; I wish I had bought the Rolleiflex first! (3.5E2 with the Planar lens)

It has such a simple, well-designed charm to it that my photography seems more intuitive somehow, maybe it's just a comfort thing. Anyway, good used Rolleiflexes can be had for a few hundred dollars on up to several hundred, depending on the model and features... there is a ton of information on this forum from those with more expertise in this area than I possess; do a search.

 

One benefit to having only one lens is that you find ways to work with what you've got, and aren't tempted to be drawn into the "I-need-another-lens" syndrome. The Rolleiflex is good for a remarkable number of applications ranging from portraiture to landscapes, and unless you plan to shoot a lot of macrophotography or sports, it should hold it's own for you quite well.

 

Most folks end up getting a brighter viewing screen put into the older models (Bill Maxwell's screens are outstanding), and you would probably have to count on getting a CLA done, but these additional costs are well worth the results.

[john_photo]

Derek, its clear to me from your comments that you are not a working pro. A "pro" maybe but not one who is working.

 

Funny, I've never ever seen a MODERN 6000 series rollei in the town where I live yet know several other working pros who use bronica so I find your comments odd ( mostly wedding ). The bronica sq series is actually quite popular. The gs-1 is not though and rental gear is unavaliable. Mamiya 645 is a plastic box that if droped would shatter ( along the same lines as my mamiya 7 body that at least seems very cheaply constructed )

 

Perahaps the most widely available "pro" MF camera is the Mamiya RZ/RB series cameras. Many use these for magazine/advertising work. Your best bet for Rental. I thought about a mamiya 645 but was not impressed with build quality of the camera. Bronica has less plastic and at least seems more rugged to me. As far as optics I fine bronica PE glass to be great but one could debate the relative merits of MTF design forever. Pentax is a field camera. They are not appropriate for location work involving strobe. Great Great camera but a field camera with interchangeable backs. Bronica does have digital options. You just buy an adapter that is machined in small quantities and it works fine. Considering only one tenth of one percent of Medium format photographers have a digital back this is not a valid concern in my mind. I would by the eos1ds before I would think about digital for a 645. Maybe for the square or 6by7.

 

Many fashion shooters use Contax 645. Hasselblad is square is becoming a hobby camera in these circles where I live.

 

I will state that Bronica is becoming a bit dated without autofocus and if one were in the market for a brand new camera that they would be looking at H1 if they needed the capabilities and could justify the investment. Its clear that Tamron is shutting down its bronica division but the cameras are still available new and will be supported for years to come.

 

Your post sounds like an add for the blad. The same type of mentality that says that a certain brand gives legitmacy. I've found over and over that this type of drivel originates often from hobby photographers and not those actually doing the work.

[roger c]

I weighed up the pros and cons of s/h Hasselblad vs. new Bronica and went for the Bronica. Why? Because there is more to life than a standard lens, and Hasselblad wide angles cost an arm and a leg. I'd never have been able to acquire a full outfit (currently ETRSi, 40mm, 60mm, 75mm, 135mm, prism, two 645 backs and a 135W back). And FWIW, the 40mm and 135mm are more expensive than the more common 50mm and 150mm, but the 40mm blows away the 50mm for dramatic pictures, and the 135mm allows much tigher cropping than the 150mm, because it focuses a lot closer (even allowing for its lower magnification).

[john_photo]

I always regretted not getting the 135mm but oh wells. You were smart. Although, ironically, if you check keh.com in the states the 135mm is quite a bit less expensive than its 150mm PE cousin ( I have no clue why ). At least the 150 is small but its little consolation.

[greg_smith4]

I have a Broniac SQ-a that I got used in decent condition off EBay for $800. I'm very happy with it. I use a 80mm lens on it. My photography has greatly improved with it. If you have any questions about it feel free to EMail me (Moo727@aol.com).

[greg_smith4]

I have a Broniac SQ-a that I got used in decent condition off EBay for $800. I'm very happy with it. I use a 80mm lens on it. My photography has greatly improved with it. If you have any questions about it feel free to EMail me (Moo727@aol.com).

[patrick_oreilly]

Format size (other than price range) has to be your first question. Do I want 6x6 squre or rectangular like 645 or 6x7. I had a Mamiya 330c 6x6, loved the camera, didn't like the sqare neg. Now I have a Mamiya RB67, it's bigger and bulkier but it's becoming like another appendage. I'm thinking of giving up my 35s and 4x5 because it's right in a comfortable middle between them. Larger neg than 35 but still roll film unlike 4x5.

[james_brand]

I just bought a Hasselblad a year ago and I love it. If you have the means, I highly recommend getting one.

[dave schlick]

i just sold my first c330 pro with 80 mm lens for what i paid for it.. i got another in mint condition last fall, and i love it.. (just to break up the bronica argument talk to repair shops before you buy a camera).. the c330 pro is heavey but with a several lens set up, bag, flash, and lots of goodies it can be had for under 2,000. camera with 80mm lens can be had for 275-400 dollars.. a thirty year old camera doesnt loose much value..take several rolls of film to a used camera store and start shooting,(with a good meter)prossess and youl find out whats best for you in a hurry.. listen to the repair shop not the store clerk or biased opinions. most of us here are biased, why would a repair shop get upset if you liked bronica or hasselblad or c330? they will tell yo they cant get parts for the c330, but a good shop has old cameras around for parts or can get them... some shops wont work on some cameras.... find a shop that will before you buy one.. .. good luck, dave.

[canon man]

Funny, most of the Professional shooters around here are i=either using Mamiya RB67s or Bronicas. I think I would be more inclined to take my $600 Bronica into the bush and rap off a a few rolls of chromes in the wild before I would want to take a multi thousand doolar HAssey or Caontax. If I had my druthers it would be a Contax but I don't have that kind of dough. I have seen them and they feel pretty sturdy and give great image quality, but they cost thousands. I just took my Bronny on a logjam and shot plenty of chromes at a wtarefall with a fisherman in the low left. I don't know if I would have been as inclined to pack a big expensive rig to the same place. Get the best camear your pocket book and wife will allow. I also own one of the best autofocus cxameras made in the 1N and in MF I don't feel its all that necassry.

[chris_coleman_smith]

hey just thought i'd add my experience. I'm hardly a pro i've been into photography for about a year now, but anyway i blew most of my student loan on a Bronica ETRC two weeks ago. I figured that there was no point getting a better SLR than my MZM until i could afford a digital one. Anyway i just got my first few films back and they were all colour cast and burnt, turns out that the film back leaked. So anyway i took the camera back and traded for an ETRS which seems to be fine. I don't know what relavance of this is, just wanted to warn you to check the seals on used cameras. Have to say that i couldn't survive without used parts and i really like the feel of the bronicas, very sturdy and you can just about get anything you want for them for cheap.

[r s]

I had the oportunity to check out many available MF cameras when I was making the same decision as you Brian and the Bronica felt awfully cheap - a big plastic box. The Hasselblad I fell in love with after holding it for just a few minutes and the results it yields are amazing.

 

Not being a professional I do consider that 'the feel' of the camera played a role in my decision. I wanted to be 'happy' with the camera.

 

It's a personal choice. Go and check some out in real life. It's a lot different than reading about them on the internet.

[emile_de_leon9]

Get a Rollie or Yashica tlr for portability. They can do a lot. If you want a do everything camera get a older Linhof 2x3 that will kick most any cameras butt ever made in MF. With the Linhof you have movements, extreme precision, interchangeable backs, and you can put most any view camera lens ever created on the front of it. For the price of a new camera you can have the tlr and the 2x3 and some cash left over in your pocket.

[bob haight]

Most working wedding photags I have seen shoot Bronica. Cheap and very dependable.

[heller_harris]

Wow, you guys are tough.

 

I'm the happy owner of a Bronica ETRS system, but I have to agree with Derek.

 

I picked up an ETRS system: body, two finders, two backs, 40mc, 75PE, 180PE, plus all sorts of extras, for a fraction of what it would have cost in Hasselblad, or even Mamiya. It's an amazing value. There are digital backs available, but it will be a few years before the price drops into an amateur's price range.

 

BUT, here in Los Angeles, the prime pro users of Bronica seem to be Wedding Photogs, for whom it is a camera of choice. No idea why, but was told that by a top photo district repair shop when I asked about the paucity of Bronica dealers. Samy's, the number one photo supply house in town, no longer stocks Bronica - which says plenty.

 

Can't get into a cat fight about who uses what, or what I'd buy if I were Bill Gates, but I can recommend Bronica for a serious amateur user.

 

Good luck.

[william_anderson_katwil_ph]

$0.02, IMHO, there isn't a much better deal around these days than the Mamiya 645E Rapid Wind kit. 645 manual (with AE and metered prism), a top-notch 80mm main glass (roughly equiv to 50mm in 35mm format), a thumb winder add-on for $800.

 

Why? I won't say most, but a large number of wedding and portrait photogs I know shoot Mamiya. Why? Durable. Functional. Easy to operate. Great lense selection. Good value retention. and great cost points. Great number of authorized service dealres and centers. My wife, a programmer and painter uses the 645E. Her previous camera was a point and shoot. She seldom has an irritating moment with her 645E.

 

I respect all the major brands, but hey, if you decide MF isn't for you - it's not for everyone - you can capture 90-95% of your investment back from eBay. In fact, look there first. But Mamiya holds it's after retail value better than most (again IMHO.)

 

I use my Mamiya M645 1000S for personal pleasure. Have for over 20 years. As a working pro, I shoot strictly large format in my landscape, architecture and commercial practice.

 

Cheers!

[canon man]

I have held Hasseys Rollies Maiyas and Bronicas. In fact I have done quite a bit of work with an RB67 and my ETRS. The Bronnies are very well built and tough camears. AND CHEAPER than the others. The images I get with mine are very sharp and contrasty and thats with the hated MC lenses that every body seems to think suck. I am compaing the image quality to that of my old 70-200 2.8L EOS lens which is hands down one of the best lenses I have ever seen for image quality. Do yuorself a favor and save soem money and buy Bronica. It'll do eveything the others do even if it still looks a bit old. Brian mentioned that he wants to hook up to lights but he never said specifically he is shooting fashion.

 

These comparisons are starting to reemind me of Canon vs Nikon arguments.

[dave schlick]

this is getting fun... so ive got to step in it.. my expertise is buisiness. a comment was made about a firm no longer selling bronica... as a 4th generation buisinessman(that cant write or spell) i can attest that the reason for not carring a certain product is becouse ov availability or it hinders profets, maybe from problems it creates, or MAYBEE they slow sales of more profiitable items... price concoius (sp) people who buy bronica probably get them from order houses,, many people in expensive suits or high heels get thier stuff at the mall or super store with credit cards... of course this is an overly simple observation made by a simple minded guy... thanks for listnening, dave...