henry_ting2 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Heard it in the grapevine. Yes folks, its coming. Leica is in the works on a joint-venture with the Chinese in producing Leicas in Shanghai. Two factors I guess for Leica in making that decision. First is cost, and secondly the Chinese government levy a hefty tax on imports (its not a free-trade country). So soon we will have another dimension of evaluating Leica products -- those "Made in Germany, "Made in Canada", "Made in Portugal", "Made in Japan" and "Made in China". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_doyle2 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Only if I can afford it. Hmmm Shanghai Summicron.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd frederick Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 The Germans are not the only people on this planet who can produce quality products with high levels of qaulity control. I have come to appreciate the quality of chinese products in the past few years(I just wish they could find a way to glue their shoes better!). My best "leica" lens was made in the USSR before the 1980's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Why not? As long as the quality control is there! With lower labor costs perhaps they can make even better stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markci Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 If you start looking at tags you'll find it's really shocking how many things come from China these days, at least in the U.S. That's one reason why economic sanctions to curb their human rights abuses aren't really possible. Since Americans stopped manufacturing things in favor of serving each other cappucinos we'd be walking around naked, unshod and bereft of half our consumer goods without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_hall1 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 These will be, more than likely, consumer level point-n-shoots (analog and digital), small binoculars and sundry accessories like lens caps, hoods, straps and what not. Leica would not be able sell their serious stuff at their present exorbitant prices if they were made in China. However, China COULD be the next Portugal where they undertake the inital constructions, with final assembly still done in Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 <a href="http://www.designundphoto.de/seite%20ca0043-1%20shanghai%20leica%20kopie.htm">Old news! <BR><BR>Pre internet!<BR><BR></a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin m. Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Why the hell not? Once our make-believe economy collapses, no one will be able to afford anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 <a href="http://www.cameraquest.com/konica_6012.htm">Stephens's 60mm F1.2 review</a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_ting2 Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 "China COULD be the next Portugal where they undertake the inital constructions, with final assembly still done in Germany"... Now could Leica still legally label their products "Made in Germany" for just the final assembly work done ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 there is an old "Shanghai camera" on Ebay now; they dont show up that much on auctions sites. It is not my auction or anything; I just wanted to show more stuff (photos&info) on the Shanghai Leica copies that were made 4 to 5 decades ago..Item # 2925623489 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_ting2 Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 I can source from China, as many "Leica look alikes" as you guys want. Seriously, you all don't have to pay Ebay prices either because they are cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 The "legally label" of products "Made in XXXXXXX" has alot of complex rules; and I believe varies with industry. Many items in the USA are boxed with "MADE IN USA" lettering in BIG letters; the small print may say "of foreign components"; or "final assembly in the USA"; etc. <BR><BR>We bought a fan recently; The box said "made in "USA"; "final assembly in the USA". All the plastic is molded overseas; the motor is from overseas; the grill is from overseas. The cord is from overseas. the only parts from the USA are the paper box; and MAYBE the round selector switch. The fans are probably shipped here without a couple of token parts; (knob or grill); these are installed; it ; "tested" again; and placed in the USA madde box. <BR><BR>This gives Mr & Mrs middle America a good feeling they "are buying American"; few read the fine print. In keeps knob installers; a paper mill & press some decent work; but cheats the molders; stamping house; and magnetic wire vendor; and copper miners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 China is the most rapidly growing industry base; a real powerhouse. I was shocked to see excellent huge full color quality hardback books so darn low cost at the bookstore recently. Hardback books 10x14x2" thick; hundreds of pages; for between 8 to 14 dollars; with very detailed color screened photo quality printing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_ting2 Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 Kelly, I know what you mean. I once bought a set of knives advertised on TV. I like the small print "Designed and Assembled in USA from foreign components". But it has a U.S flag prominently displayed on the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesk Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 No kidding China has a rapidly growing industrial base... guess whose industry is moving there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furcafe Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Actually, the rules to sell something w/the "Made in USA" label in the US are pretty strict & set by the FTC (www.ftc.gov), i.e., "all or virtually all" of the product must be made in the US (which isn't to say that companies don't violate the rules). There are another set of Customs rules which require all *imported* products to be marked w/the "country of origin" (www.cbp.gov)--these rules are less strict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david j.lee Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 no. as a matter of fact i try hard not to buy anything made in china....i rather buy something made in a country where the people get something in return for their work other than just the chance to stay alive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_ting2 Posted May 2, 2003 Author Share Posted May 2, 2003 David, that's too broad of a statement. There are sources from China that are well-managed. I'm referring to some American-Chinese joint ventures that adheres strictly to ISO standards. IBM, HP, Motorola, Dell, just to name a few. However, I agree some are downright shroddy in their management. I was joking when I brought up the subject of sourcing fake Leicas. I have no problem sourcing or buying if eventually Leica forms a joint venture and started exporting legitimate Leicas from China, but I would stay away from any name-brand fakes. They are good though. Case in point, I once saw some fake Rolexes with genuine Swiss ETA movements and it was so well made that it could have fooled even the experts. Go to any big cities in China and you see fake Louis Vuittons, Guccis etc and the qualities are high that comes with your average generic Wallmart price. Anyway, I hope Leica's Chinese venture becomes a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_hall1 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Henry, how long do you think it will take fake Leicas (albeit P&S and/or binoculars) to surface? Somehow I don't think they will benefit the real ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_hall1 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 ...and by "fake Leicas" I certainly don't mean to include these <a href=http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003rv5>highly-sought after collector's items</a>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_ting2 Posted May 2, 2003 Author Share Posted May 2, 2003 Very interesting scenario. It seems to me that these fake Leicas demand a premium because its a question of "demand & supply". China seems to be gunho in being able to fulfill any sourcing "IF" there is demand. But in this case, it sure doesn't seem that way. I don't know the answer why we are not seeing more "fake Leicas" from China. By that I mean the fake good ones, not your average generic Russian copies. I think the Leica deal with China is mainly for the Chinese market. I'm sure the Chinese government gave Leica a lot of incentives in any joint-venture business as payback for what the Germans had been doing. For example, the Germans designed and built a magnetic high-speed train capable of 300km/hour linking the Shanghai airport with Poudong (East side commercial district of the city), and the Germans basically built it for the Chinese for free, hoping that the ultimate prized contract of linking up Beijing with Shanghai will be tended to the Germans. You are seeing a lot of positioning from all countries. As far as what Leica China will produce, I don't think its for any foreign market other than for China itself. China market is huge and the fact that the government impose a hefty duty for imports, and to avoid that, the option is to produce in China in order to sell in China. Case in point, China is now the #1, surpassing U.S in the number of mobile phone units sold there and you see all the big name companies such as Motorola, Nokia, Ericsson etc already have plants there just for the Chinese market. We are seeing a lot of global companies now, being "localized" into regions. Just the fact that Leica set up plants in China, doesn't necessarily mean they will export from it. Localization is commonly done for regions. This way, they can produce products customized for that region. Anyway, I don't think we have to worry about Leica sending their Chinese made products to us....just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_everhov Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Actually they´ve produced "leica" cameras in china before, Mao tse tungs notorious wife was once on a tour in germany and during a visit at the leica factory she was awarded an M4 as a gift. She was so impressed with the little marvel that she ordered a camera factory in shanghai to produce a copy. Years later they had produced 50 so called "red flag leicas", all at a premium cost, and all handed out to official china news photographers. Well theese cameras rate as the ultimate copy leicas, and are worth serious dollars on the collectors market. BTW i think it´s all for the good that industrial assembly jobs gets exported to countries like china, can´t really see the point in why people should get through 12yrs of basic school and end up in a job a decently trained monkey could do. Seems like a waste of taxpayers money to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h._p. Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 If you take away those 'trained monkey' jobs you end up with a lot of people lacking an income. The third world countries are taking a lot of jobs from the western democracies, largely with the active connivance of our elected 'representatives'. If this goes on too long the west will lose the technology to compete. In some cases it already has. A lot of engineering expertise has been lost and many countries now have large levels of chronic unemployment with the associated gap between rich and poor which breeds social unrest. While it's nice to get cheap products, it's also nice to have the money to buy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymond_tai Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Are you referring to Leica Camera? The Leica Group has been in Shanghai for many years manufacturing geological/surveying equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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