6x4.5 vs 6x7 for collegiate photo illustration program

[psychophoto]

I'm a high school senior bound for Ohio University next fall. While

there, I will be double majoring in photo illustration and fine art

photography. I want to "upgrade" my medium format system to

something a little more versatile than my current Mamiya C220f. I've

been weighing the advantages and disadvantages of 6x4.5 systems

against those of 6x7 systems and am still a bit unsure. I like the

lower general cost and greater film economy of the 6x4.5 systems, but

I also like the bigger negs/higher image quality of the 6x7. My

immediate concern is picking the format better suited to a college

program, but I also have to keep in mind that I'll still be using the

camera in a photographic career following college. I'd really

appreciate your perspective and/or advice on the issue. Thanks in

advance!

 

-Dave Munson

 

orthoptera@juno.com

 

P.S. I've narrowed my choices down to either a Bronica ETRSi or

Mamiya RB/RZ, if that helps.

[stuart_phillips1]

This is one of those topics where i think you're going to get a lot of opinions: on the one hand, on the other. But here's my go.

 

1. I don't like the 6x4.5 format for a couple of reasons. It's not really different enough from 35mm to justify not using 35mm. I have used 6X6 (my current), 6X7 and 6X9. Film cost is not (for me) a good enough justification for one over the other. I DON'T have a lot of money and film and processing can be expensive, but the difference between getting 12 or 16 images on a roll, to me, doesn't make much difference. I'd rather get a smaller number of images I want.

 

2. I think you've narrowed your choice down too much. The RB/RZ is an industry standard and an excellent camera. Plenty of stuff around used and plenty to rent. But it's basically a studio only camera. You cannot hand-hold it and get the benefit out of medium format that you owe yourself. If you can live with that (for example, you have a 35mm system or even your 220 for non tripod work).

 

Used Hasselblads are also an option, and pretty much the same price. These are very hand-holdable, but also great for the studio. I think the image shape/size is wonderful do, and it's another industry standard.

 

Remember that both Mamiya and Hasselblad have some serious discount options on new gear for photography students; I don;t know how you are going to finance your education, but a couple of thousand for a camera doesn't seem so much when you look at the total price of the eduction, and it seems like you are going to use it to earn your living afterwards.

 

Finally, go to a good pro dealer; they'll almost always let you borrow a used basic combo for a morning.

 

Good luck

 

stuart phillips

[michael_heal]

<p>Excellent answer Stuart. I only wish to add that viewed in isolation those deep discounts can sometimes be deceptive. You should consider the cost of the <em>entire system</em> you need. There is a lot of used equipment available for the more popular systems and buying used can save you a lot of money, especially on lenses.</p>

[alan_dale]

Contact your (future) instructors and ask their opinion. In your place, I'd save the $$ to spend on film and paper and chemistry. What camera you use in school is lesss important than how much work you get done, what you learn and what kind of portfolio you end up with. Will you be shooting and processing c-41, E-6 qnd B&W? You are potentially looking at 1000s of $$ in chemicals/papers/films alone over the course of 3-4 years.<p>

[psychophoto]

Stuart,

Thanks for the advice. I would like to respond to what you had to offer.

 

I've had the feeling that 6x4.5 really isn't really large enough as compared to 35mm to justify the cost. Therefore, my leanings are in the direction of 6x7. As far as portability and hand holding is concerned I'll say this: I'm not concerned. I'm fully aware of the size/weight of the RB/RZ cameras, but it doesn't bother me in the least. I regularly carry a Linhof Bi-Kardan 4x5 with a heavy manfrotto tripod and a bunch of accessories miles into the field, so I'm used to dealing with high equipment bulk. Also, rarely do I ever use any of my cameras sans tripod, even my Nikon, so not being able to conveniently hand hold the camera isn't really an issue with me.

 

At one time I seriously thought about a used Hassy, but I've since decided against such a route. I have nothing against Hasselblads, nothing at all. The truth of the matter is that I adore working with square format, but I already own a Mamiya TLR and that takes some of the shine out of the Hasselblad/6x6 SLR option. True, it is possible to get Hassy equipment for substantially less on the used market, but for that matter you can get most anything cheaper on the used market.

 

I've looked into the student discount programs but they aren't always as great as they seem. I almost never buy any equipment new as it is, and even with the tempting discounts offered by the manufacturers, I think I can get more bang for my buck by shopping on the used market.

 

In closing, I'd like to thank you again for your thoughts on the matter; I really appreciate that you responded with such a logical and well-put answer.

 

 

-Dave Munson

[chris___10]

I was in a situation similar to yours. I am in a college photography program and I just purchased a medium format camera. I was also trying to decide between 645 and 67(ETRSi and RB/RZ also). First, I don't care for the square format, so I didn't want 66. Then, size, weight and cost where the factors as well as enlargement quality. I have used both, and I find both to be excellent. I went with 645 because it is a smaller camera, which I prefered working with. 67 will give you better enlargements, but the difference isn't that much in my oppinion. I still don't get how people can say that 645 isn't different enough from 35mm when they use 6x6 cameras. If you don't like the square format, then 645 is the same as 66. Anyway, try them out if you can. Is most of your work done on a tripod or handheld? I am going into art, portrait, and wedding photography and for me, 645 was the best solution. I have used RB/RZ's and Pentax 67 and they are great cameras, but I much prefer my 645. It is nice to be able to get 15 shots on a roll, and I can get great quality from it. It was also cheaper, look into Bronicas student purchase programme. It is really nice. I got a ETRSi body, 45, 75, 150mm lenses, prism finder, 2 120 backs, and the motor winder for about $4000. I see why people recomend 67, but it really isn't that much of a difference and I really like my ETRSi. For me, the ETRSi was the better choice, and now every time I use an RB at school I am glad I went with the ETRSi. They are great tripod/studio cameras, but they don't give me the flexibility/ease of movement that my Bronica does with the grip.

 

Oh yeah, one other reason I like 645, when I shot Tri-X with 67, the grain was still to tight for my taste at 11x14 (like I said, there isn't much difference, but enough that I had to go up larger to get the grain I wated from it). With 645 it is great, plus I can shoot Tech-pan and get very large enlargements with almost no grain.

[stuart_phillips1]

Dave,

 

Just a couple of extra points. I think with the extra information you have given (not being worried about weight), I would definitely go with the Mamiya. 6x7 transparencies are beautiful and can be looked at as objects, in the same way that a 4x5 is. I have some great ones from when I had a Mamiya 7.

[dan_brown1]

Try this perspective, David. It is the year 2025. You reflect back on your younger years as a photographer, thinking about how energetic and creative you were in college. Great memories indeed! You thumb through your binder of old images and thinking that some of this was your best, most creative work. Some 35mm stuff, maybe some 645 and 67. Do you think you will ever look at a 6x7 neg, wishing you had shot it in a smaller format? Do you think you will ever look at a 35mm or 645 neg, whishing you had shot it in a larger format? Do you think you will, even for one moment, think about your economy in film purchases back in those days?

 

Go with bigger negs, whenever possible.

[michael_t._murphy]

I'd go at this from a little different angle. I would be absolutely amazed if you are the same person with the same interests when you graduate as you are now.

 

Rather than committing all of your resources up front I would wait and see how you grow or change during your first year. When I got out of graduate school I invested $5,000+ in suits for interviewing and for my first job. Most of those suits have been worn once or twice at best! I'd love to have that money now for other things.

 

One photo educator that I respect and like very much showed slides of his large format work at an SPE conference. Then he showed slides of his students "Shooting Back" point-and-shoot type work from his classes. The student work blew his away, made it look stuffy, boring, and rather sad. The good news is he also realized it and changed his approach to re-invigorate his own work.

 

Take art classes, anthropology classes, sociology, philosophy. Do gum prints, silk screens, or their digital equivalents. Work with a 4x5 and then switch to a Holga. Go on an archeology dig. Then build a portfolio during your senior year based on your vision, not your instructors.

 

Unless mom or dad are buying and this is a gift? If it's a limited term offer, grab it while you can.

 

Best.

[debora_coit]

I bought a Hasselblad 501CM kit two years ago. I absolutely hate buying lenses for Hassy but I know I bought the right camera. I know I will use it, expand it, and probably beat it a lot for that same time. But, I will be able to sell it for what I paid for it. Few other makers, except Leica, can make that claim. It's expensive but does what it is supposed to do. By the way, I frame SQUARE prints and clients like them. I crop in the finder. If you are charging for a portrait then who cares about 12 or 15 shots. It just does not matter. Buy what you are comforable with. The cost will not matter after 10 years of use.

[patrick_drennon]

The greatest chance is that either of the systems you mention will make you quite happy. They are both expandable as your interests expand and marketable if you decide to relieve yourself of some equipment. Both have a history and a following. Unless I'm mistaken you will be doing the VAST majority of your assignments at less than 11X14 size. If this is true you will have trouble noticing the difference (note that I said 'have trouble', not to be read as no difference) at those magnifications. That said, for me it would be a pocketbook consideration and there might be little difference there in an area where used equipment is readily available.

 

The only one of the two I've used is the RB. Great camera, but it is HUGE.

[triblett_lungre_thurd]

chances are your university will have a RB/RZ or like camera for you to use in the studio and possibly even check-out, so you might want to consider saving or a very portable camera. I'd opt for bigger negs in any case but first decide what kinds of pics you like to take...are they macro, fashion, architectural or do you need a very versatile camera that could do all of these? Hassleblad is a great camera if your last name is Gates. I think the best advice was to call your instuctors-to-be and conduct a poll. You may want to consider 6x8 or 6x9 or larger also.