Still unclear: Xpan or Mamiya 7II/MK2

[salva]

I am really looking to purchase a Panoramic camera.

I currently own a full set of Nikon stuff, but I love panoramic shot

which now and then I take with .... an APS!

 

The two options are the Xpan and the 7MK2.... and believe it or not

they have the same price in the UK.

I am concerned about:

- Portability (Travel!)

- Ease of use

 

I like the concept of the XPan as it is smaller and use 35mm

films... and I can technically use is as a bulky Leica.

Though....once I spend this money I might go as well in MF...

 

I have read the forums and I still can't figure it out.

 

Confident in your help guys

Salvatore

[richard_milner2]

My advice is to think whether you want to go into MF.

 

The main point of MF is having a much larger negative. If you only use the Mamiya for panoramic, you must either buy the add-on panoramic kit or crop the 6x7 pictures. Either way, you lose the advantage of the big negative.

 

If you are not interested in shooting 6x7, stick with the Xpan.

[greg_mason]

another option to consider is the fuji gw690 or gsw690. they are non interchangeable lens rangefinders with a 35mm equivalent of 38mm or 28mm. shopping carefully they will probably be your least expensive option. the 6x9 format work even better for panoramics than the 6x7 and will easily crop and enlarge to 12" x 36". the mamiya 7II is an excellent camera and would also be a good choice.

[david_henderson]

They'll both produce great panoramics. The key to your decision

lies in what other uses you can get from the camera.

 

With the XPan you'll get another 35mm camera. Well great, you

appear already to have those. With the Mamiya you'll gain the

capability to do something you can't do already- take lovely big 67

negs/transparencies that you can really see on a lightbox and

from which you can if you wish produce much bigger prints than

you could from 35mm.

 

There are in fact a few differences between them as panoramic

cameras. The Xpan is set up as a panoramic and its

viewfinders provide a panoramic perspective. The Mamiya

doesn't do this. It's viewfinder has a couple of marks on it which

show where the panoramic insert will crop, but that's all. The

view through the finder looks like a 67. The Mamiya insert is

pretty much a pain - I sent mine back after a week. I much prefer

just cropping panoramics out of the usual 120/220 film. If you

use the Mamiya insert, you are committed to using the camera in

panoramic mode till the film's finished. It is not switchable frame

by frame. If you don't use the insert you can frame each shot just

as you want. You can also decide on editing how big you want

your panoramics to be. With an XPan you can't get bigger than (I

think) 65 x24mm. On the Mamiya you can crop to 71 x 30 if you

wish or indeed 65 x 24 if you want. With the Mamiya you can

carve the panorama out of the top or bottom of the film as well

as the centre. This simulates a degree of camera movement

and does help in preserving the perspective you want.

 

So there are differences. My vote went to the Mamiya and I have

no regrets. On the other hand I wanted an easy to carry,

hand-holdable , high quality 67 camera and panoramics were

probably only 10% of my reason to buy.

[salva]

2 points more:

- Running costs: Mamiya is going to be more expensive though - films/processing...

- Any views on printing? would it be easier/economic to get Mamiya cropped ones or Xpan??

[stephen hazelton]

With the Xpan in panoramic mode, don't you get an extra-long 35mm negative? In other words, you still can't use conventional 1-hour type processing and printing, so you lose the advantage of 35mm. If you need the custom lab work, you might as well go to Mamiya, which lets you use both the 35mm or the 120.

[pen name above]

Hi Salvatore,

 

You're welcome to an answer from a 6x6cm square format user (which is as far as you can get from the panoramic fad).

 

You'll need to use a centre-density filter for the X-Pan. The learning curve for the true panoramic format is also quite steep, given your previous experience with 35mm format. You're probably not going to be making a huge learning transition up to 6x7cm format.

 

However, you have stated that you wanted panoramic, and I'm inclined to think of the Mamiya 7MkII as a medium format camera rather than a panoramic camera, just as the Hasslebad is a panoramic rather than a medium format camera.

 

If cutting your losses by digitally stitching two 35mm prints together doesn't appeal to you, there are a host of other camera makers (Noblex etc) who do panoramic formats. The difficulty you seem to be facing is, as with most users: do you wish to go for a niche market camera, or a general purpose? Getting used to panoramic thinking is an interesting challenge, however ultimately, the Mamiya will surpass the X-Pan for image quality at large print sizes.

 

If you drop a 35mm cassette in for negative or slide development only (without mounts or prints), it is as cheap as you can get 35mm format (16 exposures) - provided you instruct the operator not to slice your negatives clean down the middle of an image. 120 film will land you with around 8 shots per film roll (and you probably won't want the uneven film flatness of 220 film anyway). Negative quality (medium format) versus panorama: you choose.

 

If you don't know quite why panoramic appeals to you, you might be better settling for a Mamiya 7. Better still, keep on researching panoramic images in galleries and consider whether such limitations in format frees you up towards greater creativity, or the usual slice of landscape with horizon striped out in an image. If you're really going for a niche market and want more of a panoramic format e.g. 6x9cm the Fuji range is as good as any. Even better - try the obscure Silvestri T30.

 

In terms of cropping: medium format cropping is more universal - you may have to find a dedicated lab to do your panoramics. The freedom of the negative area in a 6x7cm is tremendous; there will always be images which are previsualised in composition, however still benefit from tighter crops. With the X-Pan, the negative format would be awkward: with a 6x7, you can extract 6x6, or 6x4.5, or if the image is really dire, a 35mm slide, as well as the panoramics. How's that for flexibility?

 

Best wishes.

[graphicjoe]

Salvatore,

 

I have a Mamiya 7II and love it dearly. However, I have never used its panoramic feature although I have the kit. However, the prints that I get from the 6 X 7 negatives are show stoppers�or at least the slow the show down a good bit. The B & W prints are very good and can be enlarged to 16 X 20 with ease, and probably higher, but I�ve never gone beyond 16 X 20.

 

But, depending upon your interests, your tool kit, and your skills, I would urge you to give a bit of thought to making digital pans. I do a lot of them and it�s easy a the end product is first rate. I start with either digital images or scans of 35 mm film and work with these. They are almost the only color work that I sell and being able to do them gives me an edge over photographers who lack the capability. You don�t mention processing, but it is certainly an issue with B & W pans. You will have to do your own darkroom work or find a lab that can support your plans. If you have the kit, digital is easy and can be done at home.

 

You�ve read a lot of good posts here. I would add that the Mamiya is not so very much larger that some of the bigger 35 mm cameras, but certainly larger than a Leica or Xpan.

 

And, Jason, how can you call panoramic photography a �fad?� It�s been around for a very long time and has had a following for all of that time. It may be more common now because it�s easier than ever before, but it�s far from being a fad.

 

Cheers,

 

Joe Stephenson

[thidglance]

The M7 is good but large, and expensive. I suspect that the XPAN would survive harsher treatment. The xpan is much smaller, much faster to change lenses etc, doesn't require an external viewfinder for the 45mm lens (does for the 30mm). I thought long and hard about this choice and went with the XPAN. <A HREF="http://www.thirdglance.com">www.thirdglance.com</A> is the result.

[graham_welland]

Here's my perspective as an owner of both the XPan and Mamiya 7II systems:

 

If you just want a pure panoramic camera then the XPan is ideal and the

viewfinder really assists in accurately composing a wide image. Secondly, the

double width 35mm images are extremely sharp since the XPan's Fuji lenses

are, for all intents, medium format level glass. The convenience of the XPan's

size, even with the 30mm/viewfinder, is a real advantage over other larger

panoramic cameras. Build quality is excellent and the camera holds up to

travel knocks very well - the paint does fall off the edges after a while.

 

Downsides? If you don't scan your own images and print them then you'll find

the running costs of the XPan to be horrendous. There are very few labs that

will process/print films or mount panoramic slides. If you can scan the images

then you'll find total ownership costs to be very low since you can get film

processed and delivered un-cut. Scanning XPan images requires either a

decent flat-bed such as the Epson Photo 2450 or a medium format scanner (I

use a Minolta Scan Multi-Pro). The best value for money film scanner is the

HP S20 if you want to scan panoramics. Otherwise, you'll have to scan

panoramics in 2 halves and join them digitally - I've done this, it's a real pain.

 

M7II: It's a 6x7 medium format camera that is extremely portable and very

useable in the field. I enjoy the full size medium format slides that it produces

and the 43mm lens is outstanding. With 6x7 the process/print issues are

identical to the XPan - it's MUCH cheaper if you are able to scan/print. The

Mamiya doesn't feel as 'solid' as the XPan although that's really due to the

different materials used - i.e. titanium vs, poly-carbonate. The same is true for

the lenses as well.

 

Portability: I find that my XPan with 30/45/90 lenses can be quite heavy after a

while compared to the Mamiya with 43 & 80mm lenses. Compared to my

DSLR kit though, either of these outfits is a feather-weight - there's not a lot in

it. Mamiya lenses are definitely seem lighter than those of the XPan.

 

Conclusion: If you just want panoramic, go with the XPan. If you want medium

a portable medium format camera that can also produce panoramics then go

Mamiya. I wouldn't bother with the Mamiya 7II panoramic adaptor unless you

want to shoot 35mm - imho the worst of both worlds since you're getting XPan

image size without the benefits of a decent panoramic viewfinder.

[kevinteo]

<p>This thread was what did it for me-<BR><a href="http://

www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000KYS">

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=

000KYS</a><BR>Seems that despite what Fuji/Hasselblad

claim about the design of the frame counter, the XPan will fog IR

film up into the image are. So I went with the 7II. In terms of ease

of use, it takes some practice to load film into the panoramic

adapter in darkness. But I didn't let that put me off. :)</p>

<p><center>

<img src="/photodb/image-display?photo_id=1346055&size=

md" height=289 width=800 hspace=10></center></p>

[graphicjoe]

Salavatore,

 

A last thought or two. Take pictures with a Mamyia 7II with a 43 mm lens. Make prints and then slice out whatever part you wish. Result: a very high quality panoramic image and can be made by any competent darkroom technician.

 

Re the comment that it�s �a real pain� to join images to create pans. Not true. If you have the right software it�s fun and easy to make outstanding images using as many as six or more images, if you are competent using computers for digital imaging. I do it all the time and the results are impressive. A 12 X 42 print from an Epson 2000P can really be beautiful, and when presented in vertical mode you will have a product that is not so common in the marketplace and hence attracts more attention. By combining images it is possible to have high pixel counts so the quality is good. I just looked at a typical pan image that is 12.5 X 26.328 inches and it is 4500 X 9478. Printed at 360 dpi it looks great.

 

Cheers,

 

Joe Stephenson

[chip l.]

Owning the Xpan myself. Never thought of the Mamiya 7 when I bought. I liked the size and feel of the Xpan. You've gotten some good strong points regarding the Mamiya 7. If you think that you will want to get into MF then the choice is clearer.

 

About a comment made by Jason about the Xpan and the need for a center filter. Generally if you are using slide film, the center filter is a must have though stopping down to f/8 or 11 seems to help. With negative film the need for a center filter is not there unless you are doing very critical work IMO.

[hil_niloy1]

The only reason that you definitely should choose Xpan is if you can't live without the 30mm lens. Otherwise, the choice is clear the Mamiya 7. The most important points are two:

 

1. Mamiya's lens peformance is far more uniform from cornor to cornor. Xpan's light fall-off and edge-softening is significant. Some portrait shooter may claim that the brighter center is actually an advanatge, but for landscape the argument is hard to stand.

 

2. The "alternative" format of Mamiya 7's 6x7 is much more useful than Xpan's 24mm x 36mm.

--Mixing 24x36 with 24x65 on the same role is a pain for maintaining the film. It's the easiest way to mess ujp your film files. Many people end up always shoot 24mmx65mm format and crop it later (if necessary). The film is cheap anyway.

--Using Xpan to shoot 24mmx36mm is a bad idea. Not only it's slow (f4), but also not competible to Nikon that you already have. Remember, Fuji has a good tradition in the larger format, specifically in 6x17, But it has never been competible in smaller formats, particularly in 35mm format. In the recent fierce digital SLR competition, Fujifilm's 35mm DSLR simply goes with Nikon's lens mount and Nikkor's 35mm lenses. They are even willing to bundle with Sigma's lens to be competitive.

 

Also be wared that Xpan is not a panoramic Leica M. Leica M is a low light, handheld, quick and quite shooter, and best when used for portraits. But Xpan is a tripod-top beast, must be carefully horizontally leveled and well balanced in composistion, shoot with small aperture to maximize the depth of focus, especially for the foreground, and performs best when used in landscape.

 

Since you are looking for a 35mm panaramic camera, it won't go wrong with either the Xpan or the Mamiya 7. But if you choose Mamiya 7, either use it for 6x7 or 24x65, its performance is at least among one of the top ranks.