elizabeth_turrigiano Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 i am a student and just started experimenting with large format. while in class we borrow good quality monorail cameras from the school. i am really enjoying it so far. i was thinking though that this summer i am going to want to continue to shoot with 4x5 format, but i can definitly not afford to but a good quality system, nor do i have the need for one at this point. i mainly shoot medium format, and will continue to do so for now at least. i saw that you can get an old speed or crown graphic for like 200 bucks. i thought that would be a fun camera for me to toy around with. does anyone have any suggestions as to what to look for. should i steer clear of the later models that have electronic shutters? what is the difference between the speed and crown graphic? are there any other brands i should look into? i was reading that the edges of the film do not come in focus, is this true? any info would be helpful, thanks -liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art_haykin Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Get the Crown without the focal plane shutter, as they will invariably need work due to nonuse. Lenses are another matter, old and new are interchangable irrespective of the camera's age. If the edges of the negs aren't in focus, something is wrong. Be certain to check the bellows for aging and pinholes as well as the rangefinder, and try to get the Graphlock back so that you can attach accessories. You should really take along someone with experience when buying a camera like this, and have recourse back to the seller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_hawley Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Liz, check out the Graflex website, www.graflex.org. You will find good descriptions of all the Graflex models and a wealth of other information. The basic difference between the Speed Graphic and all the others is a focal plane shutter. By modern standards, its kind of a Rube Goldberg affair but it does work. I would suggest going with a Crown Graphic, one of the models without the focal plane shutter. Try to get one made in the 50's or later. The later models (designated by "Super") are very good but will cost more and are harder to find. Good luck and let us know what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_smith4 Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 I'm in (or was) in the same position you were. I ended up with a Crown Graphic with a nice Schneider lens in great shape from Adorama for $300. I havent used it much just becasue its so cold out. But it's a well built camera and I'm sure that if its lasted this long it can last alot longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph_barker Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 <p>Use old words in the captions of your images? ;-) </p> <p>For your purposes, Elizabeth, I'd agree that a Crown is probably the better choice, so you would rely solely on the shutter of the lens. The soft-edged negs that you read about are probably a result of someone using a lens right at its coverage limit, and not stopping down. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chauncey_walden Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Hi Elizabeth, Although I have 3 Speed Graphics, my favorites are a Busch Pressman and a Burke & James Press. The Busch and the B&J have rotating backs and are capable of forward tilt without engaging in gymnastics. They are also all metal and could probably be used to block up a car! The Busch is quite compact. The only advantage of the Speed Graphic is that the focal plane shutter (which is robust and easily adjustable - see the Graflex site) permits use of old/cheap/unusual barrel lenses as long as the lack of a good range of slow speeds is not a problem to you. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 All good comments above. Get a 4x5 format; and not a 3x4; which is really oddball; ie no film available; without being a pain. I got two used 4x5 Speed graphic's ; the shutters both work well; maybe I got lucky. I purposely wanted the focal plain shutters because I have alot of shutterless barrel lenses which I use; such as a 135mm F5.6 Schneider Componon-S for shooting flat artwork.<BR><BR>The Crowns have no focal plane shutters; and are lighter; due to the lack of shutter mechanism gizmos. <BR><BR>The 127mm Kodak Ektar F4.5 is very sharp at the center; good half way out; and soft at the edges of a full 4x5 negative. The center resolution of my 1946 Kodak Ektar far exceeds my Epson 2450 scanner; every greyscale dot of the WSJ is seen on the original negative in the center area.<BR><BR> <IMG SRC=http://www.ezshots.com/members/tripods/images/tripods-309.jpg><IMG SRC=http://www.ezshots.com/members/tripods/images/tripods-310.jpg> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_kasaian1 Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 elizabeth, Welcome to LF! I would opt for the Crown as well, one without the cammed rangefinder. Like the focal plane shutter on the Speed, the cammed range finder is very nice to have, but is also one more thing to break or need repair from non-use and that would probably be an issue in the price range you're looking at. For a lens, I'd suggest a fast one(4.5-4.7) for hand held work. If you're looking towards the future (and the future holds the promise of a view camera with all kinds of moves) something like a WF Ektar or 120 Angulon would be a good choice. If you plan of shooting portraits, the 168mm Wollensack Velostigmat is a very economical softish choice, and the 203 Ektar is highly regarded but usually pricey piece of vintage glass to consider as would be the 150 G-Claron. Whatever you choose, make sure you get a usable shutter(FWIW, I have confidence in working supermatics, rapax, dialset compurs and ilex among the older shutters) or be prepared to send it off for a cla before you'll even be able to use the thing! Check out www.skgrimes.com/ for a good education on older shutters. Your MF tripod should be able to handle any speed or crown, if not check out the recent thread on the tilt-all. Old filmholders are available pretty cheap on *b*y. For wood ones, the Liscos and Fidelity seem to be better made than the wood graphlex in 4x5. For newer plastic ones, I like Lisco and IMHO,the Riteway Graphics sre the top of the line...this is all personal opinion and certainly argueable...! The Crowns and Speeds are FUN! Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_davis2 Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 "we borrow good quality monorail cameras" Let me be the opposing voice. You like monorail cameras so why not get a monorail camera? For $200 with some looking you can get an old monorail and stick a press lens on it. Real nice press cameras aren't cheap. Real nice monorails can be. The question is what kind of tradeoffs do you want to make? The monorail will be heavier and more of a pain to haul around. The press camera will have less movements and likely shorter bellows. Cameras like the Calumet CC400,B&J Orbit or the Graflex view camera can be had for about $100. Give or take. So what are you looking for in a camera? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domenico_foschi Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 If you use a monorail, you might be used to all the movements that a monorail can offer . for that reason i do not recommend a crown Graphic . If you like to use selective focus or architectural photography , a crown graphic will prove almos useless. It is not true that speed Graphics focal plane shutters don't work . I have bought four in the most risky market ( read E- BAy ) and all of them had good working shutters . Generally if the seller says that the shutters works , that is the truth , it is very easy to fine tune the shutter speeds . Speed graphic is my camera of choice , because i can adapt almost any lens to it , but if i need an image with selective focus then itake out of the trunk of my car my faithful Graphic view . It is light , manegeable , and you can find a good one for $ 200 . And it will last . Another choice is a field camera , ...... www.dfoschisite.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_schroeder Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 For the money, I would recommend the Crown Graphic. Stick with mechanical shutters. I think the Busch Pressman works better as a view camera. It has the revolving back, better front tilt, and is more compact. It's main potential drawback is the very small (and more expensive) lensboard. I say potential, because I don't think it is really a constraint. If you don't plan to carry the camera much, the advice for a monorail is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_schroeder Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 The soft corners come from using a shorter lens than ideal. The correct "normal" lens for a 4x5 press camera is a 163mm. The commonly used 135 and 127mm lenses were originally designed for the 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 cameras. Some smart photographer found the shorter lens actually worked quite well on the 4x5, as long as the corners weren't too important. (The problem is minimized by stopping down.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_a Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Save some money for cleaning and adjusting the shutter. You'll be happier with any camera you buy if the shutter works well. And if you're buying a 40 year old camera it will most likely need service, then it'll go another 40! If you buy a "press" camera, the late Crown Graphics are very good with the 135 Xenar, but you'll pay more than $200 for a nice one. Top rangefinder (late model) is preferred if you think you'll walk around and make pictures handheld. The Busch Pressman gives you more movements and they are often less expensive than a Graphic. Both cameras are most often found with a 127 -135mm lens which is not a bad thing because they have just enough bellows to focus that focal length quite closely - about 12 inches or so. The result is that you can do a lot of different type of pictures with one of these cameras and the one lens: landscapes, environmental portraits, close-ups, handheld rangefinder focused, tripod using the ground glass. Lots of film choices too: color, b&w, type 55 Polaroid. Yeah - get a Polaroid film holder for sure! Hours of entertainment for not too much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiserparts Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 I bought an Crown in good condition for 200.00 at an auction. I had never used a 4x5 before. The first time that I used the front rise, I knew that I had to have more adjustments. I taught myself as much as I could and then sold the camera and saved for something else. In my case the arca-swiss discovery. You can get decent monorails, maybe not as cheap as 200.00 (but i doubt your gonna get a great graphic for that anyway), without having to spend a whole lot. Don't get me wrong, the crown was a great camera. But after using a monorail, i can't see myself going back to a press camera. your results may be similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_galli4 Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 I agree with Robert Davis. An old press camera will stunt your growth. I'd recommend an old Calumet 4X5 Monorail so you can have all the movements. There's so much good stuff out there for so little. I just got all of $260 bucks for an old B&J monorail with a user 180 Schneider lens. 5X7!! for $260 bucks. In fairness though it only had the 45 reducing back and it is a tank. Still..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave schlick Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 i have a crown with most of the junk taken off and a rodenstock 135 sironar s.. 5.6.. really great system. after the deal is almost done pull out the cash and say, ok if you throw in two film holders.. YOU SHOULD take a shot to make sure there are no leaks and as said earler haver recourse.. the lense may need about 100 dollars work just to get it cleaned.. then they(old lenses) are ok but nothing like the rodenstock 135 multicoated.. with this camera and good lens in good working order you can shoot as good a photo as anyone with the tilt/rise/shift limitations.. make sure the bed is not sloppy when lens is locked and it has one set of lens rail stops for lens.... first thing you do is take the back and front lense board off extend all the way out and blow it out real good with an air hose.dust is the enemy,it will jump onto that film... and it probably has plenty.... good luck dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Press and monorails are different animals; your question title asks about a press camera; the text mentions a monorail; but asks alot more about press cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozo_seco Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 I will disagree with almost everyone on the face of the photographic earth and recommend you get a Speed Graphic WITH the focal plane shutter... But be sure to get one that works... <p> A decent FPS can usually be as accurate as many of the old shutters you will find. That will allow you to experiment with a lot of old barrel lenses that can be found cheap... and you can learn what lenses you want when you spend the big money. <p> There are also some effects that can be achieved ONLY with the FPS... like the Lartigue photograph of the racing car with the 'egg shaped' wheel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozo_seco Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Elizabeth, I wanted to mention... you might want to check out www.graflex.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Speed Graphics have focal plane shutters; crown graphics dont. Super Speed Graphics and Super Graphics also dont have focal plane shutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ole_tjugen Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 A monorail doesn't have to be heavy, slow and expensive. At a workshop, My Linhof Color was lighter, faster to set up and cheaper than most of the field cameras. Setting it up takes about 10 seconds; they're about as basic as a monorail can be and still deserve the name. They're all getting old by now, but due in part to their simplicity they're virtually indestructible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crowe Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 I agree with Pozo. I bought a 1930's Speed Graphic with a 135mm Tessar two years ago for $250 US. I saw it on eBay but it was in the neighbourhood, so I was able to see it before buying. In the past year on eBay I have been able to pick up a 210mm f4.5 barrel lens for under $20 US, a 65mm f8 Super Angulon with a broken shutter for $100 US, and a 90mm f6.8 Raptar with slow speed inaccuracy for under $90 US. The 65mm is exceptionally sharp and the others are good. With this inexpensive system I have been able to learn alot about LF photography, and I am able to frame scenes the way I want to. The 70 year old shutter is working perfectly and accurately! If it ever breaks beyond repair then I basically own a Crown! It is a disadvantage using the body shutter because it only goes as long as 1/10 of a second, however, I am learning that if you buy an inexpensive older shuttered lens it won't likely work properly any longer than 1/10 of a second anyway! If I can ever justify investing more money into LF equipment I will know what I want and I will have the comfort of knowing that I have only spent on this system what some people spend on one 35mm autofocus camera and one lens, or on one digital camera. I wish you the very best of luck and have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlabrosse Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Elizabeth, If you are used to using a monorail, then look for a monorail. I bought my Graphic View II for a reasonable amount of money. All the monorails mentioned above are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_schroeder Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Elizabeth, this forum reminds me of a Red Cross camp I attended years ago. The Red Cross people were a fine group, all dedicated and helpful. It was also a very dangerous place to get hurt and need first aid; a person could get trampled! Very divergent opinions, but good advice in all of them.....good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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