gene m Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I've shot a number of sheets of the subject film and developed it in Rodinal (25:1.) Sky shots and other continuous tone areas of my photos show a lot of grain even at moderate 11x14 enlargements.<p> I've shot lots of asa 125 film (XTOL 1:3) in my 6x7 and don't see any grain in similar subjects. I wouldn't think I'd see so much grain with this large size film.<p> I like the idea of using asa 400 film. Reciprocity failure is less of a concern of course. Is Tri-X a better choice or should I use a slower film like FP4 in a solvent developer ? <p> So far I've shot mostly landscapes with my new 4x5. Like the rest of you, I want sharpness, long tonal scales and no grain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcrisp Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Gene: I assume you're shooting 4X5. I wouldn't blame the film. Rodinal has some interesting characteristics but giving fine grain with higher speed films isn't one of them. With 4X5 Tri-X you will find that grain is noticeable in even 8X10 prints, when you use Rodinal. So if you want to stick with 320-400 asa films, then try the Ilford film in another developer, like HC110 or Xtol. Tri-X in HC110 is well liked by many, many people. If not overdeveloped you can make 11X14's (and with many subjects, 16X20's) which appear grainless at any reasonable viewing distance. If you must use Rodinal, then try a finer grain film like FP4+ or TMAX 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark houtzager Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 It's the developer indeed. X-Tol should work better, or, if you're stuck with Rodinal, make test with a more diluted working solution or overexposing and underdeveloping. You should be aware, however, that there's a trade-off between sharpness and fine grain. At one point you'll find that grain supports sharpness; it helps the viewer see sharp. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene_singer Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Gene, don't switch film. Switch developer. Anchell and Troop have some excellent information on Rodinal in their "Film Developing Cookbook". It uses sodium hydroxide as it's accelerator. It has high accutance and low solvency, thus emphasizing the grain pattern. For 4X5 HP-5+ film, I have found that Ilford Microphen 1:1, and the liquid version, Ilfotec DD-X, give an increase in film speed, yet still maintain high accutance. Grain is minimal in my 16X20 enlargements. Also, grain clumping can be caused by improper temperature maintainance. Try to keep the temperatures of all the processing solutions as close as possible to 68F, including the final wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gene m Posted March 20, 2003 Author Share Posted March 20, 2003 Uh huh. I'm aware of the grain/sharpness realtionship. I'm just surprised that grain is noticeable in 4x5 film. I'm going back to my old friend XTOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_hawley Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Gene, I havent shot any tri-x 4x5 yet, but from my research on LF film/developer combinations, the Tri-X/HC110 combination is very popular with many highly regarded LF photographers. This extends from Ansel Adams who favored it in his late career to Per Volquartz, who's website I visited today. From my MF and 35mm experience, I can say the Tmax 100 and Rodinal combo is nearly grainless so I would expect the same in 4x5. Currently, I'm learning 4x5 with APX 100 and Rodinal 1:50. I like it; tonal range very similar to Tri-X. But living in a notoriously windy area, I think I will move to Tri-X/HC110 in the near future just to get that one stop faster on the shutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per_volquartz1 Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Pyro Rollo in a tank w. continuous agitation = no grain - smooth skies (or water) - incredible scale - super sharp details! HP-5 in Pyro is fantastic! As is Bergger 200! And FP-4! And Tri-X! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_hawley Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Hey Per, I've heard of Pyro but what's Pyro Rollo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per_volquartz1 Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Alex, Pyro Rollo is a slightly different formula than Pyro PMK. It is intended to be used in rotating drums - like a Jobo Expert drum, with continuous agitation. It requires a 5 min. pre-soak, water bath instead of stop batth, a non-hardening fixer. Actually, in my opinion it is simpler to use than HC-110 which has been my mainstay for more than 25 years. Pyro Rollo can be purchased from Bostick - Sullivan in Santa Fe - and I believe that Photographers Formulary in Montana sells a kit too. Bostick - Sullivan's kit is in liquid form with an A and B part that is mixed immediately before use. The developer creates a greenish - brown stain that "fills in" the areas between silver grains, therefore making water, skies and clouds extremely smooth. Pyro is worth a try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayfc Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Not that Per needs my vote of confidence and support but, on a similar note, I have found that PMK gives all the attributes you are looking for with HP5. My 11x14s have very nice tonal range and grain is not immediately visible unless you are really looking for it. Even then, grain only becomes visible in print areas that are likely to render it. I am fairly new to LF and processing sheet film at home but, it seems that HP5 in Pyro is easy to overexpose. That film/developer combination seems to be faster than the 400 it is rated at. My development (tray processing) is 11 minutes at 68 degrees and the negs still look rather punchy (although very printable). My negatives of the same scene, taken at the same time, using FP5 are less contrasty. Finally, the negatives with TMX and TMY are "normal" conrast. If I had a scanner, I'd post the results. Anyhow, try a Pyro developer... So far, I really like PMK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_hawley Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Per, thanks for the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary_frost1 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 I run HP5+ in D76 1:1. Grain starts to become noticable in smooth areas between 5-6X enlargement with normal development. I'm usuallyworking in the 3-4X enlargement range with LF. The grain has not beenan issue here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.emmg.graphy.org.uk Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 If XTOL is your favourite then stock up because Kodak have discontinued production. They have obviously been unable to match Ilford�s DD-X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saulius_eidukas Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 If XTOL is really going out of production for those who like to use it try making your own. See the following article at http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/VitC/vitc.html It's cheap to make, works well and you don't have to worry about it going out of production. You can also do a search on photo.net to find mor information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_atherton2 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 "If XTOL is your favourite then stock up because Kodak have discontinued production. They have obviously been unable to match Ilford�s DD-X." what's your source for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_atherton2 Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 "If XTOL is your favourite then stock up because Kodak have discontinued production. They have obviously been unable to match Ilford�s DD-X." Incorrect - kodak continues to produce Xtol and has no intention of discontinuing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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