DP-11 v DP-12 finder?

[gwhitegeog]

Colleagues,

I live in the EU. I have a small but growing collection of classic Nikon film cameras and lenses. I have a large collection of Canon FD equipment but am relatively less knowledgeable about Nikon gear, so some advice would be gratefully received.

I have recently bough a near mint F2A body (1975 model) which is functioning to perfection. However, the supplied DP11 head is erratic and not functioning correctly in terms of metering - it varies from -1EV to +3EV incorrect reading when checked against multiple bench-marked separate meters! I am still enjoying using the camera completely manually, of course. But I am thinking of buying the 'better' later DP-12. There are many available, supposedly mint or vgc and all functioning perfectly, it is claimed and are firmly priced at $250+. Thus I am thinking of buying another F2 body with a working DP-12 finder which would seem to be better value. Any advice on DP-11 versus DP-12 and things to look out for, would be great. Thanks Gary

[robert_bouknight1]

The DP-12 was always thought to be "the best" F2 meter option.  I have heard that the DP-12 is more likely to fail than some of the others, but do not know if this is true.

 

I like the DP-3 which can meter with about any F mount lens that has ears and work in stop down mode with others.  The AI setup on the DP-11 & 12 finders is smoother in operation with lenses that have the AI ridge, though, which is nice.  

 

Cleaning the ring resistors may help with your DP-11.

[gwhitegeog]

48 minutes ago, robert_bouknight1 said:

The DP-12 was always thought to be "the best" F2 meter option.  I have heard that the DP-12 is more likely to fail than some of the others, but do not know if this is true.

 

I like the DP-3 which can meter with about any F mount lens that has ears and work in stop down mode with others.  The AI setup on the DP-11 & 12 finders is smoother in operation with lenses that have the AI ridge, though, which is nice.  

 

Cleaning the ring resistors may help with your DP-11.

48 minutes ago, robert_bouknight1 said:

The DP-12 was always thought to be "the best" F2 meter option.  I have heard that the DP-12 is more likely to fail than some of the others, but do not know if this is true.

 

I like the DP-3 which can meter with about any F mount lens that has ears and work in stop down mode with others.  The AI setup on the DP-11 & 12 finders is smoother in operation with lenses that have the AI ridge, though, which is nice.  

 

Cleaning the ring resistors may help with your DP-11.

Thanks for your help. Is there any previous link / explanation on how to clean the ring resistors? Best

[BeBu Lamar]

I don't think the DP-12 is most likely to fail. It has the more reliable Silicon photocell and has all solid state electronic vs the DP-11 Cds cell and galvanometer movement. I think the galvanometer is most likely to fail. 

[SCL]

Galvanometers, although very sensitive, are susceptible to physical shock as well  as electromagnetic fields. Solid state circuitry is definitely preferable.

[gwhitegeog]

Thanks, all. I saw the stuff online about servicing the DP-11 - looks fiddly! I will look around for a good DP-12 in working condition.

[rodeo_joe1]

6 hours ago, gwhitegeog said:

Thanks, all. I saw the stuff online about servicing the DP-11 - looks fiddly! 

It is - very! 

But why not just use one of your 'bench-marked separate meters'? 

The DP-12 will still only give you rather variable centre-weighted averaged readings. Whereas even Nikon's early attempts at matrix metering - FA, F801, etc. - gave far more consistent exposures. 

Plus the DP-12 also uses a dirt-prone variable resistor connected to the shutter speed knob by a bit of string. So no guarantee of it being any more reliable. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by rodeo_joe1

[gwhitegeog]

I agree - but my 'benchmarked meters' have shown that it (the DP-11) is inconsistent. For example, if it were consistently over-reading by say + 2EV, I'd adjust accordingly, but it sometimes is under reading and sometimes over reading. I may just resort to using my Sekonic digital meter. Thanks

 

[glen_h]

The more expensive option is the DE-1 or DE-2. 

Then you never have to worry about meter failure.

But yes, I agree with the buy another F2 for a low(er) price, than another DP11 or a DP12.

Though I am not sure you can expect that to be more likely to work.

 

I haven't had it out recently, but I think I have a DP12.

But I also have a Nikon F with non-working meter. 

[rodeo_joe1]

17 hours ago, gwhitegeog said:

For example, if it were consistently over-reading by say + 2EV, I'd adjust accordingly, but it sometimes is under reading and sometimes over reading.

The usual symptom of a faulty DP-11 is a jittery reading. The needle will flicker with the slightest touch of the aperture ring or shutter-speed knob. Sometimes just tapping the prism-housing will cause a jitter. That's the symptom of a worn or dirty resistor ring. 

A steady reading that's just different from another meter could be due to any number of reasons. Maybe the meter on-switch in the base of the camera might be corroded, a dying battery, a sticky AI follower, a lens with a lot of vignetting, or simply the different response or acceptance-angle characteristics between the TTL meter and the handheld one. 

None of those latter issues, apart from a sticky AI follower, will be fixed by getting a new finder. 

And as I already said, the centre-weighted averaging used in Nikon's F2 finders isn't that great. It's very subject dependant and only slightly better than a straightforward averaging reading. It's also affected by the focussing screen fitted. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by rodeo_joe1

[gwhitegeog]

Thanks, yes was using a handheld meter this morning and experience when taking some B&W shots locally. I have a DE finder on my F3. Is this compatible?

[BeBu Lamar]

20 hours ago, gwhitegeog said:

I agree - but my 'benchmarked meters' have shown that it (the DP-11) is inconsistent. For example, if it were consistently over-reading by say + 2EV, I'd adjust accordingly, but it sometimes is under reading and sometimes over reading. I may just resort to using my Sekonic digital meter. Thanks

 

Do you hold the camera in the same way all the time? I heard that when the galvanometer in the DP-11 (or DP-1) got old the orientation makes a different in the reading. 

[gwhitegeog]

Thanks. Yes, I thought about that but having done extensive investigation with multiple testing of many variables, I am convinced the meter is simply unreliable and inaccurate. Thus, it's back to basics. Using an old school handheld meter!

[BeBu Lamar]

2 minutes ago, gwhitegeog said:

Thanks. Yes, I thought about that but having done extensive investigation with multiple testing of many variables, I am convinced the meter is simply unreliable and inaccurate. Thus, it's back to basics. Using an old school handheld meter!

Back in the days I had an F2AS (F2 with DP-12) and my local store had a DE-1 finder for $42. I got it and went out and shoot Kodachrome 64 with it and no meter. It was fun. Later my F2AS got stolen and I gave the DE-1 to my friend. Well that DE-1 is now worth quite a bit of money.

[Greg M]

I have a black F2AS with the DP12. Purchased from Sover Wong, fully restored with one of his new resisters in the finder and the metering adjusted to semi-spot. The thing is gorgeous and works like-new.

Here's an image of the new resistor vs. the old..

The mask to adjust the angle of metering to semi-spot..

camera apart..

Done. I'm 61 years old and this will outlive me...

 

From his site, about his new resistor ring..

https://soverf2repair.webs.com/dp12_ring_resistor

His entire site about the work he does is worth a read.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Greg M

[orsetto]

There is a lot of conflicting and sometimes outdated "reliability" lore re the various Nikon F2 meter prisms scattered all over the web. The pros and cons listed by their owners need to be considered in the context of their personal experience, vs if/how that experience relates to your own (or your expected use of each prism). I purchased my first second-hand F2 Photomic in 1990, had several dozen more of each F2 + Prism variation pass thru my hands over the ensuing decades, and compared my findings with many other F2 photographers over that time. So here's my take on them FWIW:

Short version, get the DP-3 or DP-12 with Silicon Blue cells and 3-LED display. More reliable by far, more likely to be accurate as-found, least likely to need repair.  While all the F2 meter prisms utilize a tiny string and pulley for some features, its rarely a point of failure (far, far less failure prone than the similar setup used in the Olympus OM-1). Due to their optical aperture display in viewfinder, DP-11/DP-12 are that much less dependent on the pulley/string/disc feature. ALL the F2 meter prisms are somewhat imprecise due to play in the prism/shutter dial fitting, and can be off by as much as a 2/3 stop if not operated with care. Don't expect the perfection of the bar graph readout and computer shutter/aperture interface of an F5 or F100: you have to put your own spin into each F2 reading.

LONG version (TL; DR): These things are all OLD. Full stop. The youngest F2 meter prism just hit its 45th birthday, most are closer to 50. In-camera TTL meters, esp CdS, generally don't survive that long in perfectly functional condition (if they made it to 20 years, we old timers considered ourselves lucky). Nikon has a worse history with this in their pro F/F2 meter prisms than their amateur Nikkormat series: chances of finding a working Nikkormat meter are much better despite similar circuits and mechanics vs F/F2 examples of comparable age/wear (the electronic AE shuttered EL being the exception- ugh).

The DP-11 and DP-12 (AI-optimized) tend to be more mechanically robust than the pre-AI DP-1, DP2 and DP-3. This is due to the somewhat simplified and more modular lens coupling system. Most of the AI coupling mechanism is contained on a single neatly-constructed pantagraph assembly, which is easily removed, serviced or replaced without needing to disassemble the entire prism (take off the nameplate, pop two screws, done). On very rare occasions the tiny AI tab can get bent or snap off if hit by another camera around your neck, but the circumstances allowing that to happen are near impossible. Since the DP-11 and DP-12 get their in-finder aperture display via optical reflection, that is also one less mechanical failure point.

The pre-AI coupling system is more complex, with more and larger springs, more convoluted mechanics, a lens pin and tracking bar that can be yanked out of place by the clumsy, and a spring-catch return-to-zero requirement for each and every lens mounting that sometimes breaks down, throwing off maximum aperture detection. Being the newest and rarest pre-AI meter prism, the DP-3 (SB) is markedly less prone to mechanical issues than the older more common DP-1 and DP-2. One of my DP-3 prisms was the single most worn-looking piece of Nikon gear I ever owned: it worked flawlessly.

As mentioned by previous posters, the biggest difference lies in the basic metering circuits. The DP-1, DP-2, and DP-11 use CdS cells, which tend to age really badly in the original F meter prisms as well as the F2 prisms. I've almost never seen an F prism with a fully reliable meter, they're hopeless at this point. The F2 DP-1, DP-2 and DP-11 fare a little better in that they usually at least still operate, but reading accuracy is a problem with many due to CdS failure.

The other huge difference is in the resistor rings and wiper arms. The CdS F Photomic, F2 DP-1, DP-2, DP-11 employ the notorious carbon ring resistor. This gets dirty corroded or worn very easily: combined with the flaky aging  CdS cells its a recipe for jittery readings and dead spots in aperture, shutter and ISO settings. Later DP-1s and the DP-11 have an upgraded wire-clad ring, but (surprise) it can also fail and you're still stuck with the same dying CdS cells regardless. The galvanometer needle movement itself is actually way more sturdy than you'd think: problems are almost always due to aging CdS or ring resistor.

The DP-2 with its two-LED display running off CdS is a special case: in some ways a one-off, bespoke design that was problematic to begin with and never quite perfected despite several circuit revisions. When it works, its great: wide range into available darkness, huge bright LED display readable in any light (and automatically lights the in-finder shutter/aperture readout in bright red). But most of 'em are funky now as they approach their 50th birthday, and the electronics can be hard to repair.

The electronics and meter cells in the later DP-3 and DP-12 hold up significantly better than earlier F/F2 prisms. The Silicon Blue cells are basically unkillable, the electronics pretty robust (I've never encountered a totally dead DP-3 out of nine I owned, and only one DP-12 out of sixteen). The main failure point of DP-3/DP-12 is their gold plated FRE resistor ring: if this gets really REALLY worn you'll have glaring dead spots in the coupling of aperture/shutter/ISO.

However, reports of the gold FRE "fragility" are sometimes greatly misconstrued. The DP-3 (F2SB) is so uncommon that most have barely seen any wear or use, and a large percentage of DP-12 (F2AS) were bought by wealthy amateurs who gave them light use. F2AS was not a huge seller in the pro beater segment, they much preferred the galvanometer readout of DP-1/DP-11. Esteemed F2 repair guru Sover Wong has been emphatic about DP-3/DP-12 gold resistor failure rates, but one should bear in mind the context: he has handled hundreds or thousands of F2 cameras sent from all over the world. This is a highly concentrated sample range encountered by one person, as opposed to you or me buying a single random F2AS. Sover Wong is legendary, I've been thrilled with the work he's done for me, but some of his statistics can be scary if taken out of context.

Its also worth remembering Nikon continued using this gold resistor FRE ring in the FM/FE/FA series as well as the vaunted F3: you don't hear many complaints about those because nobody specializes in repairing just one of them to the exclusion of any other camera. Over the past forty years I've never personally experienced FRE failure in a DP-3 or DP-12, nor has any other owner I've consulted. If anything, I've heard way more horror stories about broken or cracked FRE in the F3, due to its unprotected location under the rewind knob in that camera model.

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by orsetto