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Robert Frank, "The Americans" and the reading of photo books


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6 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

Alan, you’re bashing a book, one single book of over 60 years ago, and a photographer, who moved on since 1955 and died in 2019.

You make this one book responsible for ruining the image of a people and a country. One book? With photos of nearly 70 years ago? What about all other books, photos, films, songs, poems, talk shows, news articles, press, you name it?

None of us embraced this work as the absolute representation of a people and a country, we are just curious and open minded, and well aware that any work, any work, I repeat, represents a point of view and is more or less biased. We are neither stupid, nor blind Alan. We do not claim any moral high ground, we just love photography and, at least myself, the way it is used and can be used to portray society. And we do not stick to one single work but seek to widen our horizons.

This intellectual debate here does not aim to praise anything, it is about sharing ideas, different points of view. Because it is out of diversity that thoughts spring out, that different information and opinions are shared to enrich our thoughts and experiences.

Dismissing The Americans as a useless, unfounded mercantile work by a legal alien, which is your argument throughout this thread - and you haven’t even seen the book - sounds like a purely ideological stance, which is intellectually impoverishing. Exactly the opposite of the purpose of this photo.net section and of this thread.

I've seen all the pictures and they're pretty good.  I don't like the book title. Attacking me personally because I have a different viewpoint is also the exact opposite of the purpose of photo.net.  I respect your opinions.  You ought tor respect mine. 

Edited by AlanKlein
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8 minutes ago, AlanKlein said:

Attacking me personally

There is no personal attack. I have never mentioned any of your qualities or characteristics, which are unknown to me.

I've addressed what you have said throughout the thread. Which points at much more than the mere title of the book.

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1 hour ago, AlanKlein said:

You ought tor respect mine.

There is no reason to respect ill-considered opinions. There are those who were of the opinion that the world was going to come to an end on a certain day. Respect for that? No. Respect for thinking of Frank as a foreigner who shouldn’t comment on his adopted country? No. Respect for the idea that Frank is showing a seedy side of America? That his photos take cheap shots? Especially in the absence of a specific example? No. That his title is presumptuous? No.

When it comes to photos and art, I’m accepting of various tastes. All kinds of people like and dislike different things. But when political, social, and cultural reasons are given as justifications for the opinions, those reasons can be scrutinized. When those reasons don’t hold up to scrutinity, the opinions based on them do not deserve my respect. I mean, it was the opinion of many in the U.S. in the 50s that black people didn’t deserve equal treatment to whites. That’s something Frank noticed. Why should he or anyone else have respected that opinion? Our opinions are not untouchable. They are not sacred cows.

2 hours ago, AlanKlein said:

Attacking me personally

The “opinion” that Frank was a presumptuous foreigner is a personal attack, not an opinion about the photos. That surely deserves no respect.

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"You talkin' to me?"

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10 hours ago, samstevens said:

There is no reason to respect ill-considered opinions. There are those who were of the opinion that the world was going to come to an end on a certain day. Respect for that? No. Respect for thinking of Frank as a foreigner who shouldn’t comment on his adopted country? No. Respect for the idea that Frank is showing a seedy side of America? That his photos take cheap shots? Especially in the absence of a specific example? No. That his title is presumptuous? No.

When it comes to photos and art, I’m accepting of various tastes. All kinds of people like and dislike different things. But when political, social, and cultural reasons are given as justifications for the opinions, those reasons can be scrutinized. When those reasons don’t hold up to scrutinity, the opinions based on them do not deserve my respect. I mean, it was the opinion of many in the U.S. in the 50s that black people didn’t deserve equal treatment to whites. That’s something Frank noticed. Why should he or anyone else have respected that opinion? Our opinions are not untouchable. They are not sacred cows.

The “opinion” that Frank was a presumptuous foreigner is a personal attack, not an opinion about the photos. That surely deserves no respect.

You're confusing respect with agreeing.  You don't have to agree with my opinions but we should be courteous and respectful to others whose opinions we disagree with.  

 

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Being respectful to you is different from respecting your opinions. No one has been as disrespectful to you here as you were to Frank. And your opinions don't deserve my respect, any more than the opinion many people had that the world was going to end on a certain date. 

"You talkin' to me?"

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