Robert Frank, "The Americans" and the reading of photo books

[je ne regrette rien]

5 hours ago, Ricochetrider said:

Self mis-informing (or half-informing) has replaced actual learning

Correct. Also generating the well recognisable Dunning-Kruger effect.

in some cases there is also ideological pre-judice.

[je ne regrette rien]

13 minutes ago, za33photo said:

I am just wondering , (probably should not be writing this on the forum).

If Frank's work and photo's had been done in another Country other than the U.S.A. , would those people who find his work "offensive" , still hold the same opinions ??? 😁.

 

 

Very hard to tell.

[je ne regrette rien]

4 hours ago, inoneeye said:

I have a few final personal thoughts on Les Américains and Frank. When I finally bought the book and spent some time with it I was not so impressed. I knew it was considered an important milestone in photography and why but the photos had very minimal impact on me. The craft seemed weak to me …. then. Also The narrative seemed ordinary from my perspective having spent my teens and early twenties in the street. I think many responded strongly pro & con to the book when 1st published due to the unfamiliar style of Frank. Especially in contrast to other available photography of the fifties. Even now the style puts many in a mindset of negativity.

Josh, you make very important points.

Personally, even though I think that Frank was very good at finding and getting his pictures, it’s a book that wouldn’t go very far today. I find it close to the style of Cartier-Bresson but less neat and precise - the craft that you mention. But that must have been intentional, Frank’s editorial, advertising and fashion work must have been “neat and precise”.

You say “unfamiliar style” and that’s an important thing to say. I believe that the patina of time also plays a role.

Nevertheless, there are very powerful photos in the book, in what they tell us.

And, finally, it strikes me how many important photographers are explicitly or implicitly taking Frank as a reference: Meyerowitz, Winogrand, Eggleston, etc.

I consider The Americans a means to know more about the developing history of documentary photography, certainly a milestone, but also a work of a past far away.

Edited January 5, 2023 by je ne regrette rien

[Ricochetrider]

Just cruising the ‘net, looking for articles about why exactly people feel/felt the way Alan does about The Americans… found this, which seems to be a sort of universal, “big picture” view that other articles have hinted at but none hit the mark quite like this. 

 

LINKED ARTICLE

[je ne regrette rien]

1 hour ago, Ricochetrider said:

that other articles have hinted at but none hit the mark quite like this

Excellent article, which summarises a lot of what was mentioned in this thread.

People could be "surprised" (as Bruce Davidson said) of scenes they were not used to. In 1958(59) and in a booming socioeconomic scenario, with relatively traditional communication means.

In 2023, 63 years later, with an overflow of information and channels, we shouldn't be surprised anymore and used to contradictions in society, e.g.: between the bustling NYC or San Francisco or Las Vegas and the remote and underdeveloped backcountry, to be found everywhere in the world.

[AlanKlein]

14 hours ago, Ricochetrider said:

Alan

I took a few minutes to look through some of your photos- maybe the first 4 or so pages. I found quite a bit I liked in there. 👍🏼

Thanks.  Maybe I should publish a photo book.  "My America."  😉  

[samstevens]

44 minutes ago, AlanKlein said:

Thanks.  Maybe I should publish a photo book.  "My America."  😉  

Go for it. You, like every other author, will choose a title that works for you. Hopefully, those who approach your work thoughtfully will get more out of your photos than your title.

[Ricochetrider]

4 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

Excellent article, which summarises a lot of what was mentioned in this thread.

People could be "surprised" (as Bruce Davidson said) of scenes they were not used to. In 1958(59) and in a booming socioeconomic scenario, with relatively traditional communication means.

In 2023, 63 years later, with an overflow of information and channels, we shouldn't be surprised anymore and used to contradictions in society, e.g.: between the bustling NYC or San Francisco or Las Vegas and the remote and underdeveloped backcountry, to be found everywhere in the world.

Yeah I’m beginning to get a sense of why people didn’t like The Americans: the U.S. was on a huge upswing, post WWII, and for a lot of people things were better than ever, the middle class was a new thing. A chicken in every pot and a car in every driveway.

The Americans cut through that float, sunshiny frame of mind to show the world an alternate reality- one that nobody  wanted to see - and most people wouldn’t acknowledge it, then or ever. Even now there’s a ton of pushback regarding our racist history.
 

I, grew up in the south- ours is a deeply southern family. My mom always had “help”, and it wasn’t uncommon among our relatives and friends to have a housekeeper, nanny, cook, or yard man. We’ve always had family in Charleston, still do. So that shot from Charleston with the black lady holding the white baby… that almost coulda been me and one of my mom’s “helpers”! 
 

BUT photography is often subjective.
Is it possible to see the photos, and come away with something else, something more positive? Something that one can feel OK with? 
 

I’ll find out, as I have the book on order and should be getting it soon. 

[Allen Herbert]

"t create a real upheaval in the world of photography"

Indeed. Although, there were also other photographers around at the time, who were also part of the social documentary.

Simplistic, understanding combined...with google searches. Key board warriors.

Would you like me to name them?

  

[Allen Herbert]

"t create a real upheaval in the world of photography"

Indeed. Although, there were also other Photographers around at the time, who were also part of the Social Documentary of those times.

Simplistic, understanding combined...with google searches. Key board warriors.

Would you like me to name those other photographers?

  

Edited January 5, 2023 by Allen Herbert

[Ricochetrider]

1 hour ago, Allen Herbert said:

"t create a real upheaval in the world of photography"

Indeed. Although, there were also other photographers around at the time, who were also part of the social documentary.

Simplistic, understanding combined...with google searches. Key board warriors.

Would you like me to name them?

  

I mean we all know Dorothea Lang (sp?) and other obvious ones, I’d be interested to see any lesser known photographers who were working in the same time period. 
 

[Nick D.]

1 hour ago, Allen Herbert said:

"t create a real upheaval in the world of photography"

Indeed. Although, there were also other Photographers around at the time, who were also part of the Social Documentary of those times.

Simplistic, understanding combined...with google searches. Key board warriors.

Would you like me to name those other photographers?

  

https://www.blind-magazine.com/lab/masterclass-with-larry-fink/

[Nick D.]

"Who would dare to puncture the myth of America when it was riding high? If The Americans was guilty of anything, it may be that it was too early."

Just look at US congress yesterday and today, it's demonstration of totally dysfunctional democracy. Same here in Canada.

[samstevens]

10 minutes ago, Ricochetrider said:

I mean we all know Dorothea Lang (sp?) and other obvious ones, I’d be interested to see any lesser known photographers who were working in the same time period. 
 

Are you familiar with ROBERT ADAMS? He strikes me as someone you might find interesting.

[samstevens]

16 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

I find it close to the style of Cartier-Bresson but less neat and precise - the craft that you mention.

Can you say a bit more about Frank and Bresson's style being close. I ask because I find them rather different in many ways, the difference in neatness and precision being one of them.

I think Bresson not only captures significant moments but gives me the feeling that it's the moment that really describes it all, the moment that gets what was going on. I think Frank has captured an era, both in its diversity and in many of its core traits. Bresson's compositions distill those moments into a clarified dynamic. Frank's use of symbols, gestures, and icons (and non-icons) provides a texture of culture, an envelopment of the social order of the time. Bresson's is an incisive collection of individuals (not just human). Frank's feels like more of a collective. Bresson's individuals often feel like they speak a universal language. Frank's individuals often seem more intimate and less universal even as they are so often representative of something bigger than themselves. Bresson's Mozart contrasts with Frank's Hancock.

Edited January 5, 2023 by samstevens

[inoneeye]

of thee i sing

[je ne regrette rien]

16 hours ago, samstevens said:

Can you say a bit more about Frank and Bresson's style being close. I ask because I find them rather different in many ways, the difference in neatness and precision being one of them.

My basis:

• The huge book on Henri Cartier-Bresson by Clement Chéroux published after the great retrospective exhibition of 2014 at the Centre Pompidou in Paris (which I had the chance to visit);
• The book by Frank we are widely discussing.

Cartier-Bresson was precise and neat, with very little exceptions. He started painting, let's not forget, and was influenced by impressionists. Frank's photos are generally grainy and muddy. I don't know yet if HCB proposed fully tilted horizons as RF in Mississippi River, Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

I'll point out a few pictures, which in my view are visually the same. Sure, I have access to a much wider body of work of HCB compared to RF and his book is thematically much more focused, with less pictures, all about the US.

I hope this helps supporting my remark.

• RF: Public park - Cleveland, Ohio and HCB: Trieste, 1933, Marseille, France, 1932 (HCB proposed quite a few "sleepers");
• RF: Public park - Ann Arbor, Michigan and HCB, Sunday on the River Seine, 1938;
• RF: Store window - Washington, D.C. and HCB, Camagüey, Cuba, 1963;
• RF: City hall - Reno, Nevada and HCB, Galeries Lafayette, Paris, 1968;
• RF: Cafeteria - San Francisco and HCB, Brooklyn, New York, 1947. 

Now, I don't know whether this is by chance, or if there are some common "approaches to perception" by documentary photographers, but I see stylistic similarities. Photos which convey the same feeling, at least to me. And it's not because approximately the same subjects are photographed, or the same actions. Obviously I don't refer to pictures made in China or pictures of different periods. The selected ones have overall visual similarities.

Except for the neatness, precision, and muddiness.

Edited January 6, 2023 by je ne regrette rien

[samstevens]

4 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

I'll point out a few pictures, which in my view are visually the same.

To start, I was talking about how their bodies of work differ, which I think is a very different matter from comparing two isolated photos, one by each of them. It's certainly possible that many isolated photos by various photographers can be alike, even among bodies of work that significantly differ. That being said, I'm not finding the similarity in the pairs that you do. I think it's helpful to include links to make it easy for folks to reference the photos, so I'll do so. I'll just discuss two of the pairs you addressed.

FRANK'S PUBLIC PARK CLEVELAND and BRESSON'S TRIESTE

They give me almost diametrically opposed feelings. The Bresson is calm and could be any man. There's a sense of order which gives me peace. The man, in a sense, is everyman. The Frank is aggressive, the camera pointed downward, the tree obstructing, chopped off randomly. I feel for this man, who it feels like is this man, perhaps representing a segment of society but not a universalized man as in the Bresson. Compositionally, we have the horizontally reclining men with a strong vertical element as accompaniment. In the Bresson, there's a symmetry and harmony in that dynamic. In the Frank, there's an abruptness and tension in that dynamic. The empty shoes beside the blanket in the Frank are a very Frankian gesture toward intimacy and empathy. The organization of elements, the fence, the perspective of the Bresson is more observational.

FRANK'S PUBLIC PARK ANN ARBOR and BRESSON'S SUNDAY ON THE SEINE

These strike me differently in somewhat the same way as the first two pairs above. The Frank has an intimacy that the Bresson does not. Though I'm not seeing clearly any faces, the Bresson, again, has an observational point of view, the people mostly from behind. I become an observer along with the observers in the photo. The Frank, even though I'm not seeing facial expressions, and even though it's a public park gathering scene, suggests a lot more ... different kinds of love (between a couple and between parent and child). The sensuality of Frank's bare skin juxtaposed to the curves and lighting of the cars gives me a very different feel from the more austere grouping, posture, and dress of the picnickers in the Bresson. Finally, the Frank gesture of the young man peering from behind the open car door and his companion blurrily framed through the door window provides that sense of randomness, voyeurism, and layering that I often find in Frank. Bresson tends to be, for me, more straightforward in his depictions, often giving me a more cerebral reaction.

[samstevens]

13 hours ago, inoneeye said:

of thee i sing

Fabulous work and flawless title. There's a strong poetry in both photos and title, as if they're walking hand in hand. There's a palpable sense of longing running through the series as well as the push-pull of comfortable symbology alongside some strong alienation, sometimes in the very same photos. There's a richness of texture in a coherent yet very varied style.

[je ne regrette rien]

2 hours ago, samstevens said:

I was talking about how their bodies of work differ

I understand, but I think that - at least from where I stand - it's nearly impossible to compare the two bodies of work. Of Frank I have 83, there are hundreds by HCB. Let's say that the comparison of the bodies of work is very hard and that the "famous" book of RF is still The Americans.

Still I believe that there are stylistic and visual affinities. I am not completely sure that HCB didn't stick at least a little bit to his impressionistic influence, affecting his journalistic, or maybe anthropological, vocation.

2 hours ago, samstevens said:

I think it's helpful to include links to make it easy for folks to reference the photos, so I'll do so.

I agree. I must say that I started from paper books, which gave ME an overview of the works of the two. Clearly it is impossible, at least for me, to consider a body of work in its entirety, browsing the internet. The photos I found and selected were just an attempt to sample to support my feelings. Probably also impossible to transmit my gut feeling over the bodies of work working remotely and with the fragmentation of the work presented on line.

2 hours ago, samstevens said:

I'll just discuss two of the pairs you addressed.

I fully see where you come from, but we are again in the trap of looking at single photos rather than at samples of the body of work of RF and HCB. If we go along the line of your interpretation of "Public park - Cleveland, Ohio", which I do not share but I respect, there are HCBs pictures of the dispossessed (Mexico, 1934, La Villette, Paris, 1929).

I see calm in "Public park - Cleveland, Ohio", a man resting from the heat. And if Frank wanted this perspective, the man in the shadow of the tree, the face clearly shown, the shoes, the funny socks, cleanly shaven and his hair dressed, he probably didn't have any other possibility than leaving the trunk of the tree exactly where it is.

What do both approaches have in common in my opinion? A similar approach to visual anthropology of a western society. Apart from the difference in preciseness and neatness, Frank I feel being a bit more ironic than Cartier-Bresson.

The Americans does not give me any feeling of aggressiveness at all. Just a straight visual representation of a society, from angles the same society was not used to.

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by je ne regrette rien

[je ne regrette rien]

15 hours ago, inoneeye said:

of thee i sing

Really fantastic.

The sequence is perfect, its flow is perfect, even the very difficult combination of colour and black-and-white photographs not only does not disturb the rhythm, but also contributes extraordinarily well.

Wow!

[Ricochetrider]

On 1/6/2023 at 12:15 AM, inoneeye said:

of thee i sing

Cool shots Josh! 

[Ricochetrider]

So The Americans showed up in my doorstep a couple days ago. I really wish each pic was labeled page by page instead of being indexed at the back of the book.
That aside, and just at first glance, it strikes me as curious that these shots made such a huge stir not only at the time but that people still have strong feelings about it to this day. If The Americans came out tomorrow it might not even make a ripple on the scene, much less a splash. 
 

The book has undoubtedly been analyzed to death but the mood and tone are strong and seem unified throughout. It’s not all peaches and cream but a good overall look at people and places that are definitely familiar to my experiences growing up. Clearly it doesn’t resonate with everyone but definitely some of this cuts straight to the hearts of many. 

I like this one -not that this is anything I ever experienced, but it combines elements of things familiar in a new way. 
 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Ricochetrider

[samstevens]

52 minutes ago, Ricochetrider said:

not that this is anything I ever experienced

I experienced it once and it was the best day of my life. 🤭

[Ricochetrider]

1 hour ago, samstevens said:

I experienced it once and it was the best day of my life. 🤭

and a hearty yee haw & yippy ki yi ay to that 🤠