Robert Frank, "The Americans" and the reading of photo books

[mikemorrellNL]

Whoa, as a European, I hadn't expected such an intense discussion here about a photo book published almost 75 ago. Is this discussion mainly about the title or the content? I'm very far from being an 'insider' on the work of Frank, his photographic trip across the US or the very small selection of his photos that made it to his book 'The Americans'.

I come back to my previous comments that:

- Frank was (as a European) an 'outsider' in the US, photographing what he (largely by coincidence) came across and what he found interesting

- I still regard Frank as a 'street photographer' in that he just photographed what he saw and found interesting during his trip

- From what I've seen of Frank's photos, I don't see any bias or social 'agenda'

FWIW, I think that any description (photographic or otherwise) of a 'trip' has an implicit introduction of 'my personal impressions of ...'.  For hundreds of years, we have books (written and/or photographic) giving 'personal impressions' of countries all over the world by 'outsiders' (mostly Western). In general, the words 'personal impressions' are omitted. The descriptions are presented as '<country x> in <date>'.

So I don't give much credit to the argument that 'Frank 'didn't understand our culture'. From what I've seen, he just photographed what he happened to see.  Put more strongly, the more photographers understand and are aligned with the local culture, the less objective they may be.

 

[je ne regrette rien]

It is always advisable to refresh our memory: I took "The Americans" from my bookshelf and went through it once again.

The representation of a Society in the fifties, clearly in the fifties (you will not see anything like this earlier or later) with multiple facets and situations. Proud Americans with their flag, a funeral as portrayed later in time by Eggleston, various life scenes. The black nanny with the white baby.

But actually no really unsettling picture, which has not been seen before or after the publication of the book. For example in Vivian Maier's pictures of the same period (except that they were discovered only after her death in 2009).

Maybe these pictures were so "shocking" simply because nothing similar in that period had been produced and published. Later work clearly responded to Frank's seminal work: Winogrand says this clearly in an interview.

2 hours ago, Ricochetrider said:

Cheers. All the best to you and your families in 2023. 

You too, Tom!

[samstevens]

I find unsettling aspects to these and others, even today (not a criticism, of course) ...

Elevator Girl

Car Accident

Funeral, St. Helena, South Carolina

[je ne regrette rien]

I had a more careful look and in fact there are several unsettling ones, but I don’t find them judgmental:

• Parade - Hoboken
• Candy store - New York City
• New York City
• Rooming house - Bunker Hill
• Barber shop through screen door - McClellanville, South Carolina
• Mississippi River, Baton Rouge, Louisiana
• Crosses at scene of highway accident - US 91, Idaho
• Chinese cemetery - San Francisco.

and the ones you point out @samstevens.

In any case I don’t see these unsettling ones as biased or even uncommon. 

[samstevens]

4 hours ago, Ricochetrider said:

I, too, like not only THE carrot, but also SOME carrots.

Well, you've covered the definite article and an adjective. But part of this conversation reminds me of fun times with a little verb back in the last century ... 😮

 

[AlanKlein]

26 minutes ago, samstevens said:

Well, you've covered the definite article and an adjective. But part of this conversation reminds me of fun times with a little verb back in the last century ... 😮

 

"I didn't have sex with that woman."  sounds indefinitive.  😉

[inoneeye]

The funeral photo brought up memories of the most disturbing photos I ever encountered…   Jerome  Liebling did a series of corpses in various states of decay. I had never had such a strong reaction to images before. I was young yet not naive, clueless. The book, a collection was a gift. I have never found a word for what I felt. 

[Ricochetrider]

14 hours ago, inoneeye said:

The funeral photo brought up memories of the most disturbing photos I ever encountered…   Jerome  Liebling did a series of corpses in various states of decay. I had never had such a strong reaction to images before. I was young yet not naive, clueless. The book, a collection was a gift. I have never found a word for what I felt. 

Oh, whoa…. don’t know whether I need to look that up- or not. Lots of questions arise, but some things may be best not known. 

[inoneeye]

• "... to show things that people wouldn't see unless I showed them" Jerome Liebling

Edited January 3, 2023 by inoneeye

[Ricochetrider]

1 hour ago, inoneeye said:

• "... to show things that people wouldn't see unless I showed them" Jerome Liebling

tough gig but somebody’s gotta do it ? 

[ericphelps]

On 1/1/2023 at 3:13 PM, je ne regrette rien said:

@samstevenstried this argument before and I’ll try it again sticking strictly to photographic works.

First of all I would like to remark that America celebrated its immigrants, in fact all non-native Americans were immigrants and they are celebrated in the expositions on Ellis Island, where the ships disembarked those who came.

Can a foreigner portray a society?

Why not, the list of photographers who did this is almost infinite:

• Cartier-Bresson, Africa, Italy and China, and he was French 
• Bischof, South America, and he was German 
• Capa, Indochina, Spain, and he was Hungarian 
• Burri, South America, and he was Swiss 
• Lindsey Addario, the Middle East and North Africa, like Tim Hetherington, and they are American and British 
• Nachtwey, Middle East and Africa, and he’s American 
• Jerome Sessini, Mexico and South America, and he’s French 
• Paolo Pellegrin, Israel ans Palestine, and he’s Italian
• Davide Monteleone, Russia, and he’s Italian
• Gilden, Japan, and he’s American 
• Aue Sobol, Greenland and China, and he’s Danish
• McCurry, India, Africa and the far east, and he’s American
• Barbey, Italy, and he’s French 
• etc, etc. it could go on for pages, hundreds of pages.

Book titles? They are there to sell the book and they are not a universal statement.

Photographers, as all authors, propose their perspective, their subjective perspective, on a certain topic. Freedom of “speech” is often granted, thus they are entitled to do it.

It’s up to us to put all in perspective, including the historic perspective.

And I could add Alexis De Tocqueville, who wrote the perceptive Democracy in America, Not satisfied with just the politics he described the bumptious American nature to perfection.

America has always been a violent country of winners and losers, and any glance behind Main Street reveals this. Some people thrive on the experience of a lovely girl with a clutch of menus seating them at their table, I'd rather take a look behind the building.

[AlanKlein]

4 hours ago, ericphelps said:

And I could add Alexis De Tocqueville, who wrote the perceptive Democracy in America, Not satisfied with just the politics he described the bumptious American nature to perfection.

America has always been a violent country of winners and losers, and any glance behind Main Street reveals this. Some people thrive on the experience of a lovely girl with a clutch of menus seating them at their table, I'd rather take a look behind the building.

America's violent?  As compared to whom?  The British, the French? The Dutch?   How many millions did these three countries kill in their empires?  How about the Russians or Germans?  Stalin killed what 20 million of his own people? Mao killed what 30 million of his own Chinese.  Hitler and Japan killed how many?  What's going on in Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq?  How about the Sudan and other countries in Africa.  Haiti is a disaster.  The whole country is about to collapse in violence.  How about the Mexican cartels in Mexico and before in Colombia? 

My reaction is similar to what many felt about The Americans when it came out. It's easy to take cheap shots and declare morality over others.  But let's be fair and balanced about it.  Let's tell the good along with the seedy. 

[samstevens]

51 minutes ago, AlanKlein said:

Let's tell the good along with the seedy. 

Alan, I’ve seen a lot of your photos but certainly not all, so let’s ask of you what you’re asking of others. Along with your often nice, pleasant views of things, are you “fair and balanced” in also showing the seedy, the mundane, the tragic, the darker sides of life? If not, why must those choosing to show what they want also show what you want? Why not allow each photographer their unique perspective instead of demanding fairness and balance? The way you get fairness and balance, if that’s what you want, is through exposure to many different voices, not by demanding that each voice be a full chorus. 
 

And now if you will, get specific instead of continuing to make general accusations about Frank you don’t back up. You say he took cheap shots. Link to or identify a couple of his photos and explain what you think the cheap shot is. I haven’t found one I’d consider a cheap shot among those I’ve seen. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by samstevens

[je ne regrette rien]

6 hours ago, AlanKlein said:

My reaction is similar to what many felt about The Americans when it came out.

Hi Alan, quick question: do you own the book? Or do you have a quick access to the full body of work in it?

Thanks.

Edited January 4, 2023 by je ne regrette rien

[AlanKlein]

12 hours ago, samstevens said:

Alan, I’ve seen a lot of your photos but certainly not all, so let’s ask of you what you’re asking of others. Along with your often nice, pleasant views of things, are you “fair and balanced” in also showing the seedy, the mundane, the tragic, the darker sides of life? If not, why must those choosing to show what they want also show what you want? Why not allow each photographer their unique perspective instead of demanding fairness and balance? The way you get fairness and balance, if that’s what you want, is through exposure to many different voices, not by demanding that each voice be a full chorus. 
 

And now if you will, get specific instead of continuing to make general accusations about Frank you don’t back up. You say he took cheap shots. Link to or identify a couple of his photos and explain what you think the cheap shot is. I haven’t found one I’d consider a cheap shot among those I’ve seen. 

Every photographer has the right to produce whatever he or she wants.  As a consumer and viewer, I have a right to my opinions about it.  

[AlanKlein]

6 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

Hi Alan, quick question: do you own the book? Or do you have a quick access to the full body of work in it?

Thanks.

I've seen the pictures on line.  I don't like the title and the context it was produced to knock America. 

[je ne regrette rien]

@AlanKlein

I understand.

[samstevens]

2 hours ago, AlanKlein said:

Every photographer has the right to produce whatever he or she wants.  As a consumer and viewer, I have a right to my opinions about it.  

We weren’t talking about anyone’s rights. You were asked why you hold other photographers to standards (showing both the seedy and the uplifting) you don’t apply to yourself. You won’t answer because there is no rational answer. You accused Frank’s photos of taking cheap shots. And when asked to give some specifics, you deflect by claiming a right to your opinion. Your position is clear as mud. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by samstevens

[AlanKlein]

3 hours ago, samstevens said:

We weren’t talking about anyone’s rights. You were asked why you hold other photographers to standards (showing both the seedy and the uplifting) you don’t apply to yourself. You won’t answer because there is no rational answer. You accused Frank’s photos of taking cheap shots. And when asked to give some specifics, you deflect by claiming a right to your opinion. Your position is clear as mud. 

What do my personal photos have to do with my opinions on a famous, published book that took a negative political position on America?  In any case, anyone here can give whatever opinions, good and bad, they have on my photos.  Unlike others here, who hide their work so no one can comment on them, they are all published  The link is below. 

[samstevens]

18 hours ago, AlanKlein said:

It's easy to take cheap shots and declare morality over others.

Your put downs come in the form of generalizations and the only case you’ve made for your put downs is that others said these things when the book came out. When asked for a couple of specific examples of photos of Frank’s that are cheap shots or that declare morality over others, you keep not answering. Probably because you can’t. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by samstevens

[je ne regrette rien]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:35 AM, je ne regrette rien said:

The book deserves a more careful and contextualised reading.

What's the point in trying to convince Alan Klein?

Arguments he has brought up none, he has seen Franks' pictures here and there, but certainly has no comprehensive view over the book and its context. He talks about a "political position" on America but does not explain on what grounds the position is political. In fact he has not substantiated none of his statements, and he is not willing to go beyond his adamant "I don't like it and the title".

So be it, honestly, why bother? It's just a waste of time. I'd rather move on.

Edited January 4, 2023 by je ne regrette rien

[Ricochetrider]

2 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

 What's the point of trying to convince.... ANYONE of anything on the internet ?

It's just a waste of time. 

Yeah the simple truth is that folks have their opinions, even when they can't, won't, or don't justify them to the satisfaction of others. By now, I've arrived at a point where I basically don't care any more. That doesnt stop me from attempting genuine, 2 way discourse with people, but the amount of time and energy I put into this has extreme limitations now. 

We live in a time when people form opinions based on very little. Truth, expertise, learning, informing oneself, facts, have all fallen out of vogue, especially here in the U.S., where education was never too high a priority among so many peolpe to begin with. Where many folks just dont go too far from home, in some cases, ever in their whole lives.

This is a time when teachers are under attack, and schools have come to be viewed as a socialist venture guaranteed to liberalize thought. Pretty much every degreed professional, in any field where one has to interact with the Public has to constantly contend with "self learned" internet experts. Ironic, that one can disavow all actual expertise yet arm themself with misinformation on the internet and believe deeply they know it all. Self mis-informing (or half-informing) has replaced actual learning. Like nobody is waving a degree or certification around or touting their decades of experience- instead, they learned all they ever need to know about any and all subjects- in 20 minutes, watching you tube videos! 

Ah well. Moving on.... NEXT! 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Ricochetrider

[inoneeye]

It is unfortunate but it is the way of ‘our’ culture more and more it seems to me. And the internet has a particular sour flavor sometimes. But on the upside I am pleased to get to know you Tom, Luca and others. 
 

I have a few final personal thoughts on Les Américains and Frank. When I finally bought the book and spent some time with it I was not so impressed. I knew it was considered an important milestone in photography and why but the photos had very minimal impact on me. The craft seemed weak to me …. then. Also The narrative seemed ordinary from my perspective having spent my teens and early twenties in the street. I think many responded strongly pro & con to the book when 1st published due to the unfamiliar style of Frank. Especially in contrast to other available photography of the fifties. Even now the style puts many in a mindset of negativity.

I had been immersed in The zone system, and Weston and others of exceptional craft. It took years to shake it, shape it and use it as needed while getting back to my own voice. When I did the book was much more interesting for me. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by inoneeye

[Ricochetrider]

6 hours ago, AlanKlein said:

What do my personal photos have to do with my opinions on a famous, published book that took a negative political position on America?  In any case, anyone here can give whatever opinions, good and bad, they have on my photos.  Unlike others here, who hide their work so no one can comment on them, they are all published  The link is below. 

Alan

I took a few minutes to look through some of your photos- maybe the first 4 or so pages. I found quite a bit I liked in there. 👍🏼

[za33photo]

I am just wondering , (probably should not be writing this on the forum).

If Frank's work and photo's had been done in another Country other than the U.S.A. , would those people who find his work "offensive" , still hold the same opinions ??? 😁.