First time buyer looking for suggestions...

[david_berens]

Hello all.

 

I am getting ready to begin shopping for my first leica M

camera. I am definitely not a camera collector, and am looking for

a "shooter". Something dependable I can carry at all times. I don't

have a lot of money to throw around, so this isn't a purchase I can

take lightly. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

So far I am looking at the M6 "classic" or the M7. I have

photographed with the M6 and liked it a lot, but am cautious of

buying an older camera because of what hidden mechanical problems it

might contain. The M7 also looks very promising, (although I have

not gotten to use one) even though I am not that interested in A-

priority mode. I've heard it's quieter than other M's, but that its

batteries drain fast. Any ideas?

 

Also, I was curious what the difference was (in features and

performance) between the Leica M6 "classic" and the Leica MP?

 

Thanks for any help, David (davidaberens.com)<div></div>

[bert_keuken2]

Since you mentioned you don't have a lot of money to throw around steer clear of the Leica MP. It's without doubt a fine camera but the minor mechanical improvements in MP come at a high price IMO. The MP is supposed to have a flare free finder, whereas the M6 is prone to flare.

 

M6 classics can be found for $1000 - $1300, price depending on cosmetics. I wouldn't worry about hidden mechanical problems, just thoroughly check out the camera you intend to buy. See http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm#M Buyer's Checklist

 

Good luck!

[michael_kastner]

I'd say get a used M6 TTL. Not the classic. The TTL has a small number of "improvements" over the classic and is also becoming reduced in price (whether new or used) because it has been replaced or succeeded by the M7. Get an M7 instead only if you have more money and/or if you can't do without AE. IMHO save your money (by not getting an M) and use the rest of it instead for a decent allround and/or very-often-used lens e.g. a 2/35ASPH or 2/50.

[michael_kastner]

David, sorry, "(by not getting an M)" should read "(by not getting an M7)"

[travis1]

I'd say get a used m4p or m2 and spend the bigger bulk of money on a minty lens(leica).

[kaiblanke]

I have to agree with travis: If you know and can live without a meter a meterless M2, M3 or M4(-x) would be a make entry point into the Leica M system. User bodies are available for about 300 US$ less than M6(TTL) bodies, and this money might give you a nice upgrade for a lens where it is better spent in my opinion. Since the cheaper M6 models mostly need a CLA also, this would not make a price difference. About reliability: These cameras will most probably all outlast you, so as long as you stick with a M model there are no big differences.

<p>

If you prefer to work with a built-in meter the M6TTL is hard to beat. And for AE there still is the choice between the Konica Hexar RF and the M7. But then you state that you do not need the auto-something stuff, so I think you are best served with one of the older models and a newer lens.

[h._p.]

The M3 is a very usable body unless you want to go wider than 35mm without an accessory finder. My 'beat up special' cost less than £700 ($1000) with a 50mm Summicron. Prices in America seem to be on a 'just change the sign' basis so you could probably find something like mine for $700.

 

BIG TIP: try and buy from a dealer. My M3 had the rangefinder out but the shop had that fixed for free, and the shutter checked at the same time.

[al_kaplan1]

David, the thought of "hidden mechanical problems" is laughable to those of us who give daily pro use to cameras that are 30 to near 50 years old. I would be more leary of the electronics in an M6 or M7 than springs, gears and levers in an elderly M2,3 or 4. At least with an accessory meter you can still use the camera while the meter is in the shop. An M2 or M3 is forever.

[doug_hagerman]

You have to make two decisions: body and lens.

 

Bodies come in three styles, really: unmetered, M5/M6, and M7. If you don't have a lot of money, it's probably better to get an unmetered camera. The M2/M3/M4 are very similar in practise.

 

There are plenty of lenses to choose from, obviously. I suspect that most people would, if truly limited to one lens, choose either a 50mm or a 35mm Summicron. These are the most commonly used lengths, and there are plenty of them around. I would avoid really old lenses and try to get something from the 1980s as a good compromise between cost and age.

 

I would budget about $1000 and look for an M4 and a 50mm or 35mm Summicron.

[steve_lehuray1]

David -- An M6 'classic' or M7 is going to be a bit of money to buy.

Probably better to look for a clean M2,3,4 and use a hand meter.

BTW, on Saturday I saw a nice looking M2 for $450 at a Leica

dealer in Washington, DC, PENN Camera (Rockville store).

[gerry_szarek]

David, if you want the auto option consider a Hexar RF ($600US + $50US for focus check) with a Leica lens, this will give you some automation. For a purely mechanical camera, look at a user M4-P, M2, and lastly a M3, the only reason to shy away from M3 is a decent one costs more than the other 2. I would recommend the 0.72X mag viewfinder as the best all around mag (standard on the M4-P).

 

The best starter lens is a used 50 F2 Summicron (sharp and relatively cheap).

 

You may want to buy a hand held light meter or a meter to go in the accesory shoe position, look at www.cameraquest.com for the shoe meters, I prefer a hand held spot meter (Minolta ~300$).

 

Good Luck,

Gerry

[jos__garese]

M6 Classic, from here to eternity. absolutely no hidden mechanical problems. i wouldn't worry about it being second hand. and get your M lenses USED too.

[jos__garese]

you haven´t mentioned it, david, but in ANY CASE please avoid the M5, a flawed design. about the M7, i confess i haven't used it, but consider this: if you were into digital, i would understand if you conceived of going into the latest model/latest systems available (its like a crazy arms race, older models getting obsolete faster and faster and needed to be substituted by newer ones). but it happens to be that you have chosen the LEICA realm, where this law of unstoppable progress and obsolescence DOES NOT really apply. so my advice is: drop the new M7, get a second hand M6.

[al_hula1]

Surprised that no one has mentioned the Bessa R2 as an alternative. This would leave quite a bit for Leica glass!

[Alex_Es]

David,

 

This is my most important suggestion. Get the very best you can afford. Don't pinch pennies getting something not quite or almost as good. If you skimp you'll be paying more later. That advice is given to you by someone sadder and I hope a little wiser.

 

You wrote that you are not sure about getting a used ("older") camera. That is wise. Get used Leicas only after you have become a Leica photographer. Then you'll know better what to look for in a used Leica. If you can afford the M7 get the M7. Get it with the warrenty. There are still plenty of new out of the box M6 TTLs around. If you think a mechanical camera is best get the M6 TTL instead. Late M6 classics? You need advice from a friend who knows.

 

You have said nothing about a lens (or lenses if you you have enough cash). Here you can consider a good used lens. Again, get the best you can afford. A late generation 'cron 50/2 or 35/2 (non-ASPH) are excellent choices and will not impoverish you. Avoid the 1950s and 60s Leica lenses--a lot of them have fogging problems. They do not get better with age--much the reverse unless they have been stored in a box in a controlled environment.

 

If you want to ask about Voigtlander lenses we had better talk. Some are great some are not so great.

 

Final word: The MP is a fine camera for many reasons. It is a camera for Leica maniacs. That is why it will be so expensive for a while. There are features like the antique rewind knob that you might not like. The quick wind attachment made for it is overpriced and the handle is too short according to at least two very reliable sources I've read. If you do decide to spend the extra cash for the small extra features of the MP get the chrome--chrome is more durable than black paint. "Brassing" is something you get to like after owning a lot of Leica's that don't "brass." Avoid the overpriced Leicavit." The Abrahamsson Rapidwinder is better--only you have to get on a waiting list. Before getting a bottom winder try to use your thumb for a while.

 

Absolutely: Get someone who knows about Leica's to go with you. You need a guide.

 

Final suggestion: An M6 or M7 plus a late 'cron 50/2 would be great beginning combo. You'll be tossing off a little less than $3000. If that is too much, let us start at ground zero again and see where we can go.

 

--Alex

[diego_k.]

**the only reason to shy away from M3 is a decent one costs more than **the other 2

 

How much do M3 with very light use go for anyway? I have a really nice one and must admit from time to time I think about selling it for a user M2 o 6 (hopping they would go down in price with the MP now in the market) and have some extra cash since I really dont bother too much with condition.

[jay_.]

Al Kaplan is entirely right, that daily users of M2/M3/M4's don't worry about mechanical breakdowns. If however those cameras are not used regularly, the shutters (especially the slow-speed mechanism)tend to foul up, requiring an overhaul which will cost between $170-$300 depending upon where you get it done. And sadly the vast majority of those older bodies are not used regularly. Many have been sitting for a long, long time in a bag in someone's grandfather's attic. If you do buy one, buy from a reputable dealer with a 30-90 day guarantee. Another issue with those older models (M2 and M3) is the *possibility* of the rangefinder prism decementing, which would render the camera practically useless until a very expensive repair was performed. The upshot is, add the cost of repairs to an M2/M3/M4 and you're well over the cost of a nearly-new mint M6TTL. For this reason I would consider only a used M6TTL or maybe an M6 Classic with serial # over 2,200,000. IMO the shutter timing mechanism in the TTL is noticeably improved over the Classic, but if you don't shoot slide film it isn't significant. The rangefinder "flare" problem (nor non-problem for many users, myself included)is an issue of eye position. Considering the numbers of M6 classic and TTL models that have been sold and are in daily use, I think it's been blown way out of proportion. The older models, and allegedly the MP, have been made less sensitive to eye position with regard to the patch white-out. I've outlined the disadvantages to the older models, and to get the MP means forking over more than twice the cost of a nice M6TTL.

[anthony_chan3]

If I were to start my M life all over again, I would get an M3 and a gossen digisix, a 21 super augenon, a 35 f/2 and a 50 f/2 (any generation.) M is at best for me when she has a wide angle and having the 21mm would give you a good idea of what is "too wide" for most occasions. Well... the 16mm hologon can really give a good idea of what's too wide! 35mm is juuust right. but the 21mm I suggested would be very useful at times. Why an M3 over the others? It's something that words can't describe. It's more like an experience. Next time when you visit a camera shop, try all the different Ms out and you would know exactly why I suggest an M3. As little as I know about the internal construction of M cameras, I can tell you that most of the mechanical parts in the M6s are made of stainless steel. The M3 has a lot of BRASS. The feel of brass mechanism is why the Leicas are joyful tools to me. Just silky smooth. It's like having one of the best experience in life.

To cut my suggestions in short; I would encourage people to keep painting even adobe's photoshop is comming out with a new version next year. It's something that technologies cannot buy. Nothing can substitute the hands-on experience of making art.

Once in a while, I would grave to pick up an M to go play with her.

And my wife would stay home and do her own things. I find that a good way to balance my life that is surrounded by photshop,coral,illstrator, bla bla bla every day.

Sure you can get an M4. I just like the rewind know on the m3 and if you have a light meter(strap the digisix on your neck,) you would not need the slanted rewind knob. (M4 made this change to the rewind crank to accomodate the add-on light meter.)

Sorry about the unorganized thought in my paragraph. I hope you understand my quick thoughts.

These are just my suggestions. Others might totally or strongly disagree. The bottom-line is that I try to encourage you to quickly became a happy M user.

And then use the money you save from not getting the new MP to buy a lot of film. The extra money could give extra visits at your favorate photo lab. If photography is your occupation or money is not an issuse. Then it's also perfectly great to get them all and you know...there's a lot to get and it's never ending. Money can buy a lot things, a lot unnecessary headaches too.

I wish you a happy M user!!!

You might woder why I never mention the M7. I just don't use it. It's too electonic for me. So she stays home. If I need something electonic, I would go with the real ones. Otherwise Leica would not need help from minolta back then (CL CLE R4s and up) or fuji and panasonic now.

The cold leica look is from the leica lens. I agree with others who focus on the leitz lens.

Anthony

[al_kaplan1]

In the past couple of years I've "upgraded" my Leica kit, replacing a badly dinged and brassed double stroke converted to single stroke M3 body with a much newer very clean one (serial #954XXX) in great shape, and added an almost like new M2 body (serial #983XXX). Both have bright contrasty rangefinders and accurate shutter speeds. They are out there! Both have 40 or more years of useful life. I won't be here to worry about it.

[andrew_lee2]

I just visited your web site and you have plenty of neat photos. One technical nitpick- when you click on a thumbnail to get to the larger image, I wish there were another button I could click on that would automatically take me to the next enlarged image, without having to go back to the main page of thumbnails. Get your M (doesn't matter which model, they're all good), and contribute to this list often. Best of luck-

[bob haight]

Buy the new MP in chrome. You won't look back and won't need to ask down the road if you should trade up to so and so.

[ralph_barker]

You'll get opinions all over the map, David, based on individual shooting preferences. A couple of points to consider, however. With the M6 TTL, the built-in meter is 1 EV more sensitive than that in the M6 "classic", and even if you don't use the TTL flash capability often, it's useful, even if limited by the 1/50 sync speed. Also, think about the unusual film loading of the M3s and such, as you'll have to deal with that on each roll of film.

 

Personally, I see the M6 TTL as a nice compromise between mechanical and some modern conveniences, and like the additional sensitivity of the meter.

[tony_rocha]

David, if I had to start all over again, and was only allowed to own one standard production Leica camera, my choice would be the M4. Made from top quality materials (brass), assembled by skilled craftsmen, perfect framelines (35+135/50/90), self timer, non battery dependent, proven durability, non-flare rangefinder, great looks (classic script on the top), automatic reset film counter, rapid rewind crank, modern type flash socket, quick film loading mechanism, and reasonable price on the used market. M4 undoubtedly.

[chip l.]

I understand your concerns about buying an "older" camera. If an older camera fits your budget better, then buy one from a respected dealer that offers a warranty. That will but peace of mind.

 

In the end I think speaks volume's that there are 50 year old M3's that are still going after 50 years (even though they may need a CLA).

 

For me (as a recent convert to the Leica way) is with the M6TTL shutter speed dial and dial working in the direction that nature intended. That meaning if the meter indicates under/over then you move EITHER the shutter sped dial or the aperture in the "right" direction. For us "newbies" that is a nice feature (I also own a M4-2 that is opposite of of the two M6TTL's that I own]. Consistency means a lot in my book.

[david_berens]

Wow. I'm overwhelmed at all the people willing to take the time to post useful information...thanks for all the suggestions!