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Handheld Exposure Meter


danac

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There you go, C. You do not know what you are talking about.

Please try to educate yourself about what was and is available before chiming in with your verdict. Ill- or uninformed advice serves noone. Except your own ego.

Those 'relics' still work today as good as any present day meter. Could you imagine and explain why they would not?

 

Piss away, q.c. Out-dated, ill-informed, irrelevant. Live with it.

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I have a 208 and a 308. What I like about the 208 is the traditional rotating dials and the size, of course. What I don't like so much is that there is a bit of slack in reading, so it gives slightly different measurements if you turn the light level pointer to match the meter from low to high, compared to from high to low. I have compared it to my collection of other meters and I conclude that the 308 is more accurate even though I'm not so keen on the digital display....

On the other hand, I prefer the 308 (or 318), 1 button press gets you everything. No rotating a dial to transfer a reading, then looking on a scale... even the tiny capable digisix requires that... although it does read out in EVs, so it's pretty efficient with Hasselblad C/CF lenses.

 

Not that I have any issues with dials and scales, I grew up using my father's Zeiss Ikophot-T, which worked great for an out-dated relic. I still have it. Still accurate. CDS technology with a 9V battery that last for ever. I just personally like the 318/308 better. It great having choices.

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"Manfred, there is a design problem with that camera...every time you drop it that pin breaks"
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I have a 208 and a 308. What I like about the 208 is the traditional rotating dials and the size, of course. What I don't like so much is that there is a bit of slack in reading, so it gives slightly different measurements if you turn the light level pointer to match the meter from low to high, compared to from high to low.

 

The "high to low" is the difference between reflective and incident readings on the L-208, if we're talking about the same 208. It's not really high and low. Sliding the diffuser across the cell port will give you incident readings while the meter is pointed back at the camera, as per the instructions.

 

I just received a 208 in the mail two weeks ago, so I can clip it to cold/hot shoes on the cameras that have them and I expect I'll be using it for average reflective readings only. I'll also use it handheld, but not for landscapes, it's not sensitive enough for deep shadows and highlights at a distance. However, I like the fact it takes the same battery as my car's remote door key. But for what they are, they are over-priced, made of plastic and made in the Philippines, middle men are screwing us.

 

How I wish my old L-98 was still accurate. I must get it repaired/calibrated one day, it's very sensitive, especially in low light. But after years of storage, it's two stops under exposing, the ASA has to be set differently.

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After much study over the last week I can now appreciate the efficacy of a spot meter for landscapes. Deb always has her Canon T7i. It has a "spot" meter that covers 3.5% of the view so I can try it for a somewhat equivalent tool.
A book's a great place to hide out in - Trevanian
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  • 4 weeks later...

whilst I don't want to start into a reflected vs incident debate , or indeed a wide angle receptor vs a spot meter debate ( and however narrow a spot needs to be to be useful debate) there is one thing I'd like to say that is just so right I have to say it.

 

If you want to use a spot meter get your own.

 

It is not reasonable to expect someone who may be trying to set up their own photographs to meter for you or hand over her camera for you to play with.

 

You don't need to buy/carry a dedicated spot meter. the Sekonic 508/558/608 and successors combine incident and spot facility . There are others that do the same.

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I would get one of the multi-function Sekonic meters.

Then you can experiment with spot, averaging and incident.

 

For a LONG time I used incident. I forget how I got into it, but incident metering became and still is my SOP.

I did not get a spot meter until I got my 4x5 view camera. Although I did understand the zone system way before that, I just did not apply it to roll film.

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I wonder how many spotmeters there are languishing unused in drawers, or stuffed in forgotten pockets of gadget bags?

Because I suspect the novelty quickly wears off as the realisation dawns that the exposures being given are near identical to an incident or average reading, got in a fraction of the time and with much less fuss.

 

Maybe there's the occasional shot that has an important tone that needs to be got right. But if you're experienced enough to recognise that, then you're also experienced enough to add or subtract the required exposure without the aid of dithering about with a spotmeter.

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Ah yes, meters ... From about 1980 into this millennium most of my cameras in use had built in meters. So when I stumbled into medium format in 2005, my legacy collection of meters seemed pretty motley. I ended up buying a new Gossen Digisix, It weighs about two ounces and could get lost in a shirt pocket. It does incident and reflected, and there was also a flash version. (But I use flash about once every two years.) The only complaint I have is the battery (CR2032) seems to fade away rather rapidly even when it's stored away. There is now a Digisix II -- no idea if it's any better on electron consumption.

 

I also later treated myself to a used Sekonic L-508 which does incident, 1 -- 4º spot, and flash. It runs on a single AA cell which is just perfect. It can do some tricks like average multiple readings and such. But though I don't always agree with rodeo_joe, I have to admit my L-508 does not spend much time in the field.

 

I have a couple of apps on my iPhone. I've not seriously tested them against "real" meters, and they do just feel a bit suspect. I suppose the apps could suffer from various phone and operating system variations, but the allure was being able to deal with the tiny apertures of pinhole cameras. Since the recent pinhole work is with X-ray film, and well -- uh -- pinholery, accuracy may not be too critical!

 

There are several "cottage industry" sources of very small meters that mount in an accessory shoe. I might even look at them if I were again in the market.

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I wonder how many spotmeters there are languishing unused in drawers, or stuffed in forgotten pockets of gadget bags?

Because I suspect the novelty quickly wears off as the realisation dawns that the exposures being given are near identical to an incident or average reading, got in a fraction of the time and with much less fuss.

 

Maybe there's the occasional shot that has an important tone that needs to be got right. But if you're experienced enough to recognise that, then you're also experienced enough to add or subtract the required exposure without the aid of dithering about with a spotmeter.

 

Yeah, right...Maybe I should just saw the spot meter off my Sekonic 558 to avoid whispers and dismissive looks. Funny but it does get used, especially when incident doesn't give the look I want. Guess I've got enough "experience" to know when and how to use a 1 degree meter. Same old pontification, Joe...

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Funny but it does get used, especially when incident doesn't give the look I want.

I'm not seeking to get combative about this, but what exactly do you mean by 'look'?

I keep seeing vague subjective descriptions like 'look', 'feel', 'creaminess', '3 dimensionality' and similar non-specific terms bandied about in support of one technique or another. All phrases that never get fully explained.

 

"Pontification"?

Is that what you call expressing an opinion that doesn't agree with your own?

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I'm not seeking to get combative about this, but what exactly do you mean by 'look'?

I keep seeing vague subjective descriptions like 'look', 'feel', 'creaminess', '3 dimensionality' and similar non-specific terms bandied about in support of one technique or another. All phrases that never get fully explained.

 

"Pontification"?

Is that what you call expressing an opinion that doesn't agree with your own?

 

What could possibly be more subjective than how we want an image to look? Any wonder the language to describe it might be a bit too woolly for your taste? Who cares? Not me.

 

Stating an opinion is one thing, being dismissive seems to be your habit hereabouts. Tiresome.

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When I shot MF film I found a spot meter totally indispensible. But then I was using highly critical colour slide film, and I needed to be good with it. I used an identical exposure process for B&W, not because the medium required it, but because I was switching from colour to B&W in separate backs and was concerned that using two different metering processes was likely to lead to confusion and mistakes.

 

If I'd only been using b&w neg- which is what Danac has said he intends- I'd probably have stuck with incident and made occasional use of my Bronicas' rather primitive averaging meter prisms simply because latitude is greater . I don't use my dslrs in spot mode at all and to be fair given instant feedback and the ability to re-shoot I can't see much point in moving far from evaluative metering. I've taken my share of poor photographs these last ten years or so, but I don't think poor exposure has cost me anything at all. The point I'm making is of course that choice of metering method should relate to what medium you're using not just an abstract view of whether one style of metering is better than another.

 

For me there's one type of meter I just couldn't use , and that's a wide-angle reflected light meter such as a Sekonic 308. For me a 40 degree receptor means that I can't really tell where the readings are coming from and relate that to the lens in use. I bought one because my 508 broke on the first day of a longish trip, I'd forgotten my back-up 508 & a 308 was the best I could find locally. But I sold it as soon as I got home- the slightest hand movement sent the readings all over the place. I have no idea how people use this sort of meter well, it was beyond me and I worked hard at it. I ended up taking a reading from "sky" (insofar as I could tell) and another from "ground " and working out an exposure and grad filter combo that would possibly mean that I wasn't blasting anything into total over or under exposure. The only trip in my life where I've fretted a lot about exposure.

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I recently picked up a Spectra Combi-2, which can take incident, reflected, and average readings. This meter has two photocells, one facing forwards for the reflected reading, the other facing back for incident. You select which type of reading you want with a selector switch, and the meter displays a reminder to show which type of reading is currently selected. And It has a three-position dial to select high, medium, or low light levels. I sent it in to Spectra-Cine for calibration. They turned it around promptly, with a calibration sticker that shows the expiration date. They certify their calibrations for six months. I doubt I'll be sending it that often; but maybe every couple of years. At the price of slide film, it might be worth it, to feel confident in my exposures. Anyway, I tried it for the first time in Colorado two weeks ago and really liked using it. I'll have more to report when the film comes back from Mike at AgX Imaging! I'll try to give a follow-up report on the results in a few days. Only negative so far is that it is a rather bulky meter! My Gossen meter also has a choice of incident/reflected and is much smaller. (I will stay out of the spot meter debate for now!)
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When I shot MF film I found a spot meter totally indispensible. But then I was using highly critical colour slide film, and I needed to be good with it. I used an identical exposure process for B&W, not because the medium required it, but because I was switching from colour to B&W in separate backs and was concerned that using two different metering processes was likely to lead to confusion and mistakes.

 

If I'd only been using b&w neg- which is what Danac has said he intends- I'd probably have stuck with incident and made occasional use of my Bronicas' rather primitive averaging meter prisms simply because latitude is greater . I don't use my dslrs in spot mode at all and to be fair given instant feedback and the ability to re-shoot I can't see much point in moving far from evaluative metering. I've taken my share of poor photographs these last ten years or so, but I don't think poor exposure has cost me anything at all. The point I'm making is of course that choice of metering method should relate to what medium you're using not just an abstract view of whether one style of metering is better than another.

 

For me there's one type of meter I just couldn't use , and that's a wide-angle reflected light meter such as a Sekonic 308. For me a 40 degree receptor means that I can't really tell where the readings are coming from and relate that to the lens in use. I bought one because my 508 broke on the first day of a longish trip, I'd forgotten my back-up 508 & a 308 was the best I could find locally. But I sold it as soon as I got home- the slightest hand movement sent the readings all over the place. I have no idea how people use this sort of meter well, it was beyond me and I worked hard at it. I ended up taking a reading from "sky" (insofar as I could tell) and another from "ground " and working out an exposure and grad filter combo that would possibly mean that I wasn't blasting anything into total over or under exposure. The only trip in my life where I've fretted a lot about exposure.

 

With respect, the Sekonic 308 is an ambient-incident/flash meter and, as such, it's always delivered for me.

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I recently picked up a Spectra Combi-2, which can take incident, reflected, and average readings. This meter has two photocells, one facing forwards for the reflected reading, the other facing back for incident. You select which type of reading you want with a selector switch, and the meter displays a reminder to show which type of reading is currently selected. And It has a three-position dial to select high, medium, or low light levels. I sent it in to Spectra-Cine for calibration. They turned it around promptly, with a calibration sticker that shows the expiration date. They certify their calibrations for six months. I doubt I'll be sending it that often; but maybe every couple of years. At the price of slide film, it might be worth it, to feel confident in my exposures. Anyway, I tried it for the first time in Colorado two weeks ago and really liked using it. I'll have more to report when the film comes back from Mike at AgX Imaging! I'll try to give a follow-up report on the results in a few days. Only negative so far is that it is a rather bulky meter! My Gossen meter also has a choice of incident/reflected and is much smaller. (I will stay out of the spot meter debate for now!)

 

At the price of slide film...

That's a major consideration now along with the price and availability of solid E-6 processing. Long may it wave but if the old Spectra-Combi lets you down, I'd lean towards a newer meter. The little Sekonic 308 is killer for ambient. Long production run, strong seller=decent supply on the used market.

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...For me there's one type of meter I just couldn't use , and that's a wide-angle reflected light meter such as a Sekonic 308....

The 308 is primarily an incident meter (and a good one), with a reflected option. I take it you were no able to use the incident option on your trip (because you were using chromes?)

 

In reflected mode, it works well if you can take closeup readings. Pretty tricky on landscapes though, that's were the spot option is useful - and necessary if you use the Zone system. But I don't think a lot of people do that with medium format these days, and like Joe says, a lot of spot meters probably sit unused - maybe one of those people would sell me a Pentax Digital Spot Meter - I've always wanted one of those!

"Manfred, there is a design problem with that camera...every time you drop it that pin breaks"
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Tom Chow. Your assumptions are pretty much right, plus I'd never found it necessary to learn incident metering and I was more than a little reluctant to do so on the hoof at the beginnings of a 3 week trip with no feedback available on whether I was getting it right or not. I only used the 308 as a wide-angle reflected light meter, and frankly it was that or nothing in a small town in northern New England.
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Tom Chow. Your assumptions are pretty much right, plus I'd never found it necessary to learn incident metering and I was more than a little reluctant to do so on the hoof at the beginnings of a 3 week trip with no feedback available on whether I was getting it right or not. I only used the 308 as a wide-angle reflected light meter, and frankly it was that or nothing in a small town in northern New England.

Incident is the easiest and quickest method to use and get a good reading. You'd really do yourself a huge favour if you would take the little time it takes to learn how to do it.

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Incident is the easiest and quickest method to use and get a good reading. You'd really do yourself a huge favour if you would take the little time it takes to learn how to do it.

I feel there is a lot of truth to this. An incident reading gives me a good mid-point exposure. Then if I feel the need, I can bias my exposure toward the highlights or shadows. So if I am photographing a steam locomotive, and the background is not too bright to become blown out by increasing my exposure, I can give an extra stop to capture some darker areas under the boiler, for example. But if I do need to render the background without over-exposing it, I can go with the incident reading, or perhaps just open up a cautious one-half stop. Then again if photographing something much brighter than average, an incident reading is good there, too, because a reflected light meter will over-react to that brightness; so that if I believe the meter, the scene will be underexposed so that it doesn't look much like it did in reality. In that case, I might stop down just a little, but not enough to ruin the shot.

 

So an incident reading gives me a reliable reference point from which I can use my judgment.

 

There is a reason why Hollywood cinematographers use incident meters (not saying they never take reflected readings)!

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I feel there is a lot of truth to this. An incident reading gives me a good mid-point exposure. Then if I feel the need, I can bias my exposure toward the highlights or shadows. So if I am photographing a steam locomotive, and the background is not too bright to become blown out by increasing my exposure, I can give an extra stop to capture some darker areas under the boiler, for example. But if I do need to render the background without over-exposing it, I can go with the incident reading, or perhaps just open up a cautious one-half stop. Then again if photographing something much brighter than average, an incident reading is good there, too, because a reflected light meter will over-react to that brightness; so that if I believe the meter, the scene will be underexposed so that it doesn't look much like it did in reality. In that case, I might stop down just a little, but not enough to ruin the shot.

 

So an incident reading gives me a reliable reference point from which I can use my judgment.

 

There is a reason why Hollywood cinematographers use incident meters (not saying they never take reflected readings)!

I've been experimenting using my digital camera as a light meter keeping an eye on its histogram and "Zebra" clipping schemes. If shooting negative BW film, I'll favor the shadow areas and if shooting chromes I'll favor the whites so they don't clip.

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QG You'd really do yourself a huge favour if you would take the little time it takes to learn how to do it.

Too late QG. I stopped using film more than ten years ago, my Bronicas and Mamiya 7 are sold and now I'm content with the options on my Dslrs. Being able to see a preview and a graph, together with instant reshoots are game changers for me.

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QG You'd really do yourself a huge favour if you would take the little time it takes to learn how to do it.

Too late QG. I stopped using film more than ten years ago, my Bronicas and Mamiya 7 are sold and now I'm content with the options on my Dslrs. Being able to see a preview and a graph, together with instant reshoots are game changers for me.

I'm really curious David, as to how you used a spot meter with reversal film, and how it gave (more) accurate results, than say, a grey card or incident reading.

 

The usual application of spot-metering is to measure a contrast range and transfer that to a modification of development time. However, that's not feasible with E6 processing. So I'm kind of at a loss to see the advantage of a spot meter.

 

I see lots of disadvantages to using one on a regular basis though.

 

BTW. An incident meter should be held at the subject position and pointed back toward the camera position in normal use. Although pointing it at the light source can also be useful in some situations - rim or back lighting for example.

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I've answered this question for you before Joe, and I've no interest in going through it again for someone whose interest seems to be in poking disbelief that anyone might prefer to use methods different from the ones they promote. Might be different if I hadn't sold my film equipment 10 years ago , but right now I really can't be bothered to enter a debate on which you will always insist on the last word.
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[...]

 

BTW. An incident meter should be held at the subject position and pointed back toward the camera position in normal use. Although pointing it at the light source can also be useful in some situations - rim or back lighting for example.

 

You do not need to be at the subject position, as long as you're in the same light.

I told this on pnet before a long time ago, but i had a good laugh once seeing how a photographer (pro, it appeared) used a reach truck, hanging far over the edge of the basket, risking a fall from an unpleasant height onto hard stone oavement, to measure the sunlight illuminating a large structural sculpture on a large sunflooded square. He apparently did not quite understand light.

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I've answered this question for you before Joe, and I've no interest in going through it again for someone whose interest seems to be in poking disbelief that anyone might prefer to use methods different from the ones they promote. Might be different if I hadn't sold my film equipment 10 years ago , but right now I really can't be bothered to enter a debate on which you will always insist on the last word.

Rodeo has a good point, though. Spot metering, any reflected light metering, is a more roundabout way, requiring evaluation and considered correction, to get at where incident light metering brings you instantly.

There are situation in which reflected, spot, metering can do what is very difficult or impossible. But they are very rare.

 

I too have such a spot meter that does nothing but collect dust the many decennia i own the thing. But i did use the spotmeter in a 35 mm film camera often. Point it at something green outdoors and you get the same result as an incident light reading. And there is something green almost everywhere outdoors.

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When determining the exposure with an incident meter for a distant landscape that has the same lighting as the camera where do you point the dome of the meter? Up, level or at the the scene to be photographed.
A book's a great place to hide out in - Trevanian
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When determining the exposure with an incident meter for a distant landscape that has the same lighting as the camera where do you point the dome of the meter? Up, level or at the the scene to be photographed.

 

I point the dome towards the camera, to get the same angle of the sun on the dome.

Meaning I look at the distance subject, determine the line from the subject to the camera, then point the dome back along that line. Basically, I just turn around, looking backwards.

 

However, I think (trying to remember 40+ years ago) that for slide film, I also split the difference.

Meaning, I would also determine which direction the sun was (say 30 degrees to the right of the line above), then split the difference between the direction to the camera and the direction of the sun and point it 15 degrees to the right. I think the idea was to bias towards the sun, so as to not blow out the highlight.

 

For distant subjects, what incident does not take into account is the "stuff" in the air, that reduces the reflected light from the subject.

But back then, I got away with ignoring that, cuz I was not shooting in smog.

 

Things get more complicated if the lighting at the distant subject is different than at the camera position.

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...Things get more complicated if the lighting at the distant subject is different than at the camera position.

... and that is where the spot meter comes in handy. Sky at sunset. Dynamic range.

 

With chrome, you have to decide where you want the 18%, where you want to clip (highlights and/or shadows). Cause you can't do it in post.

"Manfred, there is a design problem with that camera...every time you drop it that pin breaks"
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