steve_hoffman Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Interesting: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php? s=&postid=189010#post189010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olliesteiner Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Very interesting. Thanks for providing this, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Thanks Steve! Though the Leica is just a tool people will want to take to task Mr. Puts and his feelings about the MP like "there seems to flow an emotional charge through your hands to your brain and heart that forces you to take your photography to a higher level". It is good news that finder is a better finder. Wonder how long before Leica slips that into the M7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 People keep excusing Leica's lack of a digital M or back or conversion based on their supposedly "limited R&D funds", while in truth Leica keeps squandering whatever funds they do have on ridiculous pieces like this MP thing. First the M6 classic *had* to be retired because it was so important to have TTL flash with that ridiculous 1/50 sync speed, and that made a new higher top plate necessary, and of course we *had* to have the shutter dial bigger and rotate the opposite way...now they're backtracking on several fronts. Not to mention they must have had the "flare fix" on the drawing board before the M7 came out (read Erwin's statement he had an MP in his hands *2 years ago*!!)yet Leica sold us all M7's with coated finder windows instead. The thing that makes me really want to puke is that Leica doesn't seem to give a s*** about trying to insure that the M cameras and lenses will be useful and valuable (for more than display) as the cost and availability of film becomes a major problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diego_k. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Sorry to be the sarcastic one here, but it sure reminds me alot the FM3 promo. I´m sorry, I understand the emotional part, but dont try to sell it as a "special function" of the camera. Admit that it´s a camera that your buy for reasons "non photography related" and be over with it. Dont get me wrong I love my M3 but if I have to pick one camera considering capabilities, versatility, convinience, etc. it sure wont be the M3, now for a joyfull afternoon with my friends touring the city it would be among my first choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin m. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Gee, it's nice to know the flare problem - often denied by defenders of the Leica faith - has now been acknowledged by the factory and that a fix can be retrofitted. How much will I have to pay to get an M with a viewfinder as flare free as my Hexar, I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 I just read it. Very interesting. Apparently there are some internal and functional differences (new type of leather and improved VF, see below) with respect to the MP vs M6/M7 of which I wasn't aware. However, these are relatively minor, and there are no improvements in the basic specs (eg., top shutter speed remains 1/1000, top sync speed is still 1/50). On the minus side, the shutter speed accuracy is not as good as the M7, which has finer increments of speed control. Those of you who worry about finder flare in the later M cameras will like the fact that Leica has definitively solved this from in the MP. But since I never experienced this problem, so it does not matter to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Everyone talks about R&D funds at Leica. But in reality how much do they spend on cameras like the MP? From waht I read there is a new lighter weight shutter and an improved viewfinder. Most everything else on the camera itself is "old tech". So in the end I would assume little of the R&D funds were used in the MP. What cost them the most may have been remaking of the Leicavit. But still I think they used many more funds to look towards the future. If Mr. Puts had the MP in his hands two years ago, there is no reason to doubt that Leica has other projects (like the R10AF, or the M8Digi) that are years out. I personally look forward to holding the MP. Will I buy one? Don't know. I have become fond of the "new" shutter speed dial of the later M6TTL's. Shame that a lower priced M was not the surprise this year. Well can always dream about next year. Now that Leica is steping back, we can only hope for more steps back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feli Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Regardless of what some people here are saying I am glad to hear that there will continue to be a mechanical M camera in the future. And frankly I don't care how many special editions Leica has to make to stay in business. I'm also sure that some day we will see a digital M, but please keep in mind that it will probably not be able to use the current lenses for reasons that have been discussed here ad nausea. feli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 <<I'm also sure that some day we will see a digital M, but please keep in mind that it will probably not be able to use the current lenses for reasons that have been discussed here ad nausea.>> The expression is ad *nauseum* ;>) And no, if it won't be able to use the current lenses it'll be because it was purposefully designed that way, the purpose being to make us buy a whole new set of lenses--not that that wouldn't be a ton of fun ;>) But the whole point of owning Leica is the continued compatibility of older lenses with newer bodies. Take that factor out of the equation and the numbers shrink to almost nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_a. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 I agree with Jay %100. If Leica does not make a digital M camera with backwards compatibility lenses forget it. I will opt for the latest Canon or Nikon whatever, and keep my Leica III's and M's as relics. I hope Leica is listening!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica_phil Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Are you guys sure you don't want to buy a Canon D10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bert_keuken2 Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 OK it's nice to know there are some improvements in the new Leica MP. Will I rush out and go to buy one? No, though the thought of owning a black paint Leica M is tempting, I can't justify to spend that much money on a Leica M that's IMO only maginally better than my trusty M6 Classic. <p> BTW Erwin you should take up poetry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feli Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 >The expression is ad *nauseum* ;>) -Jay Fair enough. English isn't exactly my first language. But regardless of that, even if Leica did make a digital M, I have my doubts that it would stop your ceaseless complaints about the system and the company. Cheers, feli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica_phil Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 The reason many of us are upset with Leica has to do with what they have become. No longer the maker of fine cameras for photography, they are the "Special editon of the month" club for colletors. Yes, the M7 is a nice, if overpriced, camera. But then we have the flag models, and the last M6 commerative models, and now the MP, not to mention all the previous special editons. It's really a shame, because these are great photographic tools. Leica seem to care little about that. As far as a digital M goes, I agree with Jay, the only reason it won't use current M lenses will be because Leica wants it that way. The wide angle problem may be over stated. The 1Ds has no trouble with any of the wide angle Canon lenses. Yes the flange to film distance is approx 44mm compared with 27mm in the Leica. If the 16mm works on a Canon then a 24mm should work on a full frame digi-leica. Only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giles_poilu Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Spot on Feli - what is wrong with you lot? Leica's tradition is built on the mechanical excellence of the M2/3/4/6 line, not the psuedo electronic halfway house that is the M7. It is absolutely essential that they continue to make a non-battery dependant mechanical alternative to the electronic M7. Ideally a digital M will also be produced to complete the line up. The MP is not a limited collectors piece. It is the re-issue of a proper mechanical M in a far more attractive traditional layout than the un-necessarily fiddled with and oversized M6TTL. If you don't like it don't buy it but don't whine at Leica for offering a choice!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giles_poilu Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 And Jay, I usually enjoy your postings but what is this endless obsession you have with this vision of digital conquering all before it, you seem to be a one man grim reaper for the end of film. Film will be around for my children's children - I use digital but I also use film - and it will be as useable in the future as it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Giles, you must be descended from the ancient biblical prophet who said "Oh, dry up Noah, it's only drizzling" :>) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Keep in mind that Leica has produced about 185,000 M6's through the 19 year life. That is about 9,700 units a year. Outside of the last LHSA, the special editions are low in number (like the MP 6 with 400 planned). So lets say they produce 1,000 special units a year. That is still an average of 8,700 units a year that one can presume ended up for shooting purposes. Impressive for such an expensive of a niche camera. What I think happens is that we see some of these collectors pieces and fail to see just how small their numbers are in the overall scheme of things. If the MP6, "Test Camera" flag, the LHSA, and other models gives them some added cash, or provides an image enhancement so they can provide cameras to the rest of us, so be it. Then there are those that want the whole ball of wax. Either Leica to come out with something that is a total knockout (digital or with 1/2000 AND 1/250 sync), or something that is totally retro. I have heard some complain already that the MP doesn't have the M3 windows like the M6J. Maybe they are saving that for next year. As some would say its only a camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica_phil Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 "Film will be around for my children's children - I use digital but I also use film - and it will be as useable in the future as it is now." Giles, Would you like to explain the economics that allows a company to continue a product line that's market share is dropping 5-10% per year, and will continue to do so? How do you sell that to investors? What company's going to be happy with contiually declining profits for a product line? Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary_yeowell Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Leica don,t know what to do next do they? lets discontinue the best 35mm camera made (M6)and add some really useful TTL flash system (not), let,s also make it bigger and change the way the speeds turn. Actually lets stop making mechanical cameras as the shutters are so unreliable, and make an electronic camera only, that,s gotta be the way to go! No, let's now re make a mechanical camera cos it harks back at our roots and while we're at it lets add some black paint so it looks battle worn real quick - sounds like a load of bo*****s. I am just glad i kept my 2 M6's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 <<>The expression is ad *nauseum* ;>) -Jay Fair enough. English isn't exactly my first language. But regardless of that, even if Leica did make a digital M, I have my doubts that it would stop your ceaseless complaints about the system and the company. Cheers, feli>> "ad nauseum" isn't English, it's Latin. ;>) But on the other point, you're right, I wouldn't stop complaining as long as there's something that needs complaining about. The last thing Leica needs is yet another tongue bath from yet another apologist. As a substantial contributor to Leica's bottom line I've earned the right to grouse--or maybe "spent" is a better word than earned ;>) I'd just like them--or us--to be honest and admit the obvious: that Leica's now in the business of making instant collectibles for an affluent, nostalgic customer base rapidly approaching their senior years, who they figure will be invalid enough to no longer practice photography, or die before film dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob haight Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Film is on its way out. The backbone of the market is the consumer market and it is going digital period. Look at a B&H ad, all digital. Film emulsions will decline from here at a much quicker pace. Will it disappear in our liftimes, who knows; but,to remain a viable company in the next few year Leica will need to produce an M which is digitally compatible. If the existing lens can interface they will survive, otherwise I doubt they have the capacity to produce the quantity of new lenses required to meet any demand. 400 units of anything is not much in a global economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_brown4 Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Jay, we all know your feeling on this point. Please quit harping on it. Just sell your Leica and go buy some big fancy digital rig, then you'll have your Nirvana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_brown4 Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Just finished the article. Wow! This is what I have dreamed of, but not dared to assume would ever be made. Leica are geniouses and delivered the ultimate M to us, the MP. All my lunch money is going in a jar, I'm working overtime, this camera is an absolute must-have for traditional Leica shooters, there is none finer indeed. 0.58 finder to suite my 28 'cron, if you please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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