What's your opinion on editing photos?

[AlanKlein]

We’ve chatted about your opinions for days. I’ve asked you questions about them which you’ve answered. I think your opinions are ill-informed and shallow. That’s not dismissing them out of hand. It’s assessing them based on a lot of back and forth.

You certainly have a right to disagree and give a counterargument. But you dismissed my right to even have an opinion. Calling me ill inform and shallow are personal attacks. That's going too far.

[samstevens]

But you dismissed my right to even have an opinion.

Cry me a river.

 

This is not about your right to have an opinion, because obviously you have that right and I have no power or desire to take that away. What you keep running up against is thinking that I have to accept the rationale for your opinions as valid or having foundation, which I do not.

 

I know plenty of folks who prefer not to post process whose opinion I accept and don’t think to argue with. And I admire a lot of their work. But they don’t throw out stuff about competition, ubiquitous cloning, doing what painters are supposed to do, and the like to rationalize their opinions. They just do what they want without needing to judge what others who do things differently do.

 

Your judgments here about post processing and those who practice it (giving themselves an edge against you in the world of photography) have been numerous and now you’re overwhelmed because you’ve been called on them.

[Allen Herbert]

"Calling me ill inform and shallow are personal attacks. That's going too far" Allan

 

"Cry me a river" Sam. Kind response.

 

"Your judgments here about post processing and those who practice it (giving themselves an edge against you in the world of photography) have been numerous and now you’re overwhelmed because you’ve been called on them" Sam..

 

Numerous..so what. Look into History and what story it tells. I disagree with Alan's opinions, but I respect his right to express them without insults.

 

Not so kind to Alan, who has been over the years a supportive ,PN poster.

[q.g._de_bakker]

To be fair, though, Alan suggested the backing of a large group of 'old timers', though merely expressing his own opinion. Bad show.

[Allen Herbert]

. "Bad show" Q.G

 

;)) Bad show old chap .Defiantly not jolly hockey sticks.

 

My advice is to read a lot of PG Woodhouse, and have cup of tea, with those proper digestive biscuits .A cucumber, if you must old bean, cut into triangles, if you still have the munchies.

 

Toodle Pip old chap must be off now.

 

PS, you have to educate those Harrow barrow boys in everything. No wonder they failed their exams to get into Eton.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Allen Herbert

[Ken Katz]

"old chap", "PG Woodhouse", "digestive biscuits", "old bean", "Toodle Pip old chap", "Harrow barrow boys", and "Eton"

 

Someone need to translate all this into "American" since I got fatigued trying to use "google".

 

Don't really have a dog in this race, but have been monitoring this thread for sh*ts and giggles, have had a few glasses of wine and certainly didn't understand the nuances of Allan's posting.;)

[httpwww.photo.netbarry]

I think I've watched every episode of Jeeves and Wooster, and my roommate had the whole set of PG Wodehouse's Jeeves series books, brilliant stuff. Even though I'm an American I've had a few Digestives in my time with some Barry's Tea. :)

 

I think Alan's suggestion is great.

[q.g._de_bakker]

Alan or Allen?

[mikemorrell]

Jeez, people, this thread has been going on for almost 2 years and has had 132 responses. For how much longer? Who on earth is going to browse 132 posts to 'catch up'?

 

How about someone starting a new thread on this topic so that we can restart afresh?

[samstevens]

How about someone starting a new thread on this topic so that we can restart afresh?

Mike, you strike me as a thoughtful, intelligent guy. If you think a new thread is in order, why not start one yourself on this or any other topic you deem worthwhile? I’ve started quite a few over the years and would love some good ideas from new blood. Honestly.

[AlanKlein]

I'm sorry I stirred up a hornet's nest. It's not where I wanted it to go. So let me reset everything if I can. If anything I said upset or insulted any of you, I apologize, especially to Sam. Disregard all my posts on the subject and let's move on if you wish. Life is too short to get into arguments. We all have a common interest in photography and I should maintain a level of courtesy and friendship to all. So I intend to do so going forward. This is the New Year, so may I wish everyone a happy, healthy, and successful one. Best regards, Alan.

[samstevens]

Alan, thanks. But really no apology necessarily.

 

Philosophy is all about argument and, while others find such arguments as we’ve been having objectionable, I’m a proponent of them. There have been philosophers who’ve actually come to blows over their disagreements—most famously Wittgenstein legendarily brandishing a red hot fireplace poker in Karl Popper’s face while, ironically enough, arguing against moral rules. I would discourage physical violence, which is why Internet arguing is a bit safer. :)

 

As to getting personal, I know we’re not supposed to, but the Philosophy forum has a long history of passion and personal jabs. I’ve had personal back and forths with some of my favorite PN characters here, people I’ve learned from if sometimes unwillingly, from Phylo to JK to Lannie and others. I’ve attended lectures at UC Berkeley by the esteemed John Searle, who had very personal disagreements on the nature of truth with Michel Foucault and others. Proponents of free will have loudly and sternly argued with determinists. Cartier-Bresson got pretty personal with Ansel Adams and Edward Weston for “photographing rocks” while “the world crumble[d].” All seemed to me simply to exhibit passion for their views in the moment that didn’t seem to undermine themselves or the person targeted. Why argue so strenuously unless you care?

 

I’ve said in this thread that I very much respect the way you work and the joy you seem to get from what you produce. My quarrel is not with you as a human being or with whatever way you choose to work. It is, strenuously, with some of your reasoning here and many of your judgments.

 

I’m not much interested in modulating the voice or passion with which I argue. But I do want to let you know that I wouldn’t engage in such arguments if I didn’t think the underlying ideas were important and if I didn’t think you were a valuable enough alternative voice to argue with. There are folks here I’ve stopped arguing with, and that should be taken as much more of a sign of my disrespect than anything personal I might say directly to you in the heat of the moment.

[Allen Herbert]

"f anything I said upset or insulted any of you, I apologize, especially to Sam ."Alan"

 

You have not said a single word to insult anyone. Only you have been insulted; but your strength of character, apologies, and a kindness of the offer of peace.

Back hand apologies from Sam, do not really work for me. They just talk of someone up their own rear.

 

"There are folks here I’ve stopped arguing with, and that should be taken as much more of a sign of my disrespect " Sam.

 

Personally, I do not disrespect anyone. Again, more rear end viewing.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

Sorry to say, entertaining for some.

 

But really, a group of bully boys, putting someone down.

[Allen Herbert]

Not sure why I get involved.

 

Only really here to share photos. Maybe this photo speaks for me.

 

[Allen Herbert]

A photo.

 

A rarity on this forum.

[httpwww.photo.netbarry]

Alan or Allen?

Yikes, Allen Hebert, sorry Alan.

[AlanKlein]

Alan, thanks. But really no apology necessarily.

 

Philosophy is all about argument and, while others find such arguments as we’ve been having objectionable, I’m a proponent of them. There have been philosophers who’ve actually come to blows over their disagreements—most famously Wittgenstein legendarily brandishing a red hot fireplace poker in Karl Popper’s face while, ironically enough, arguing against moral rules. I would discourage physical violence, which is why Internet arguing is a bit safer. :)

 

As to getting personal, I know we’re not supposed to, but the Philosophy forum has a long history of passion and personal jabs. I’ve had personal back and forths with some of my favorite PN characters here, people I’ve learned from if sometimes unwillingly, from Phylo to JK to Lannie and others. I’ve attended lectures at UC Berkeley by the esteemed John Searle, who had very personal disagreements on the nature of truth with Michel Foucault and others. Proponents of free will have loudly and sternly argued with determinists. Cartier-Bresson got pretty personal with Ansel Adams and Edward Weston for “photographing rocks” while “the world crumble[d].” All seemed to me simply to exhibit passion for their views in the moment that didn’t seem to undermine themselves or the person targeted. Why argue so strenuously unless you care?

 

I’ve said in this thread that I very much respect the way you work and the joy you seem to get from what you produce. My quarrel is not with you as a human being or with whatever way you choose to work. It is, strenuously, with some of your reasoning here and many of your judgments.

 

I’m not much interested in modulating the voice or passion with which I argue. But I do want to let you know that I wouldn’t engage in such arguments if I didn’t think the underlying ideas were important and if I didn’t think you were a valuable enough alternative voice to argue with. There are folks here I’ve stopped arguing with, and that should be taken as much more of a sign of my disrespect than anything personal I might say directly to you in the heat of the moment.

Thank you. Now we can move on.

[AlanKlein]

"f anything I said upset or insulted any of you, I apologize, especially to Sam ."Alan"

 

You have not said a single word to insult anyone. Only you have been insulted; but your strength of character, apologies, and a kindness of the offer of peace.

Back hand apologies from Sam, do not really work for me. They just talk of someone up their own rear.

 

"There are folks here I’ve stopped arguing with, and that should be taken as much more of a sign of my disrespect " Sam.

 

Personally, I do not disrespect anyone. Again, more rear end viewing.

Thanks for your defense. But, any personal complaints I had about someone else's posts should have done privately with a direct email to the person, not publicly which may have embarrassed him.

 

Embarrassing people publicly is not the right way to handle it. I remember when I was a boss. I always tried to chew out my employees privately in my office, never in front of other workers. I've been an employee too who has been yelled out in front of peers. It's not a good feeling. Of course, it's so easy with social media to unload. It encourages bad manners and unnecessary conflict. I'm guilty of it as well.

[Allen Herbert]

I was just swimming by the pond and noticed a bit of a feeding frenzies going on. And the rest is history.

 

I agree with your thoughts, and I'm as guilty anyone, in involving myself in unnecessary conflicts. Apologies, to anyone I might have upset.

 

As you say let's move on.