US, THIS FORUM AND 4X4 TRUCK WITH SPARE TIRE.

[pall_stefansson]

As a proffessional photographer I have followed this forum for couple of years. In the begining I thought it was

fun to see differnt thoughts, tips and proffessional discussion. Now it4s more and more questions like, I want to

buy a SLR, MF camera, with differnt backs, TTL, and on and on for 200$. It4s like going to a cardealer and

asking for a 4x4 truck, with 12 airbags, seating for 9, big engine plus spare tire, and the truck may not cost

more than 1.200 $, because he is not proffessional driver. He don4t whant to spend more on a car he only use

from A to B.

We have in this forum endless discusion about Kiev, Kiowa,Yashica, not, ok cameras. So what shall we do have

one proffesional MF forum and one amateur MF forum for the Kiev ?

[jim_mitrovgenis]

Oh, man. Better not go there. There are bound to be some pros out there who can't afford Hassy's and are making a living off a Kiev.

[rapfoto]

I say send 'em to the stockade!, er, archives....

 

Dobry den

[ron_stecher2]

The art of photography, pro or otherwise, should not be measured or defined by how much your equipment costs. I can see where one might get bored with the never ending "which camera should I buy" question, but you do have the option of ignoring it and pressing on to the next question. After all the name of this site is the "Medium Format Digest" not the "I have a $20,000 Hassy sytem and you don't so your photos suck Forum"

[andrew booth]

:-)

 

I take your point Pall - and I agree that there's probably too much of this. It's not that the questions are invalid - it's just that I'm probably not moderating enough of them (a lot seem familiar, and could be answered if the questioner searched the archives a little more thoroughly). This is partly due to pressures on my time, and partly due to my own MF interests - I know a lot more about production systems than older cameras/TLRs etc. - I and therefore don't recognise and moderate/delete enough duplicate questions.

 

So - a couple of questions, suggestions and requests.

 

1/ What do other MFD readers think about the balance of questions on the MFD?

 

2/ Are there any good sites/FAQs etc. on the web which deal with older camera equipment and answer the 'Compare Yashica X to Yashica Y' sorts of questions? I'm happy to link to this sort of resource from the 'ask a question' page.

 

3/ Is there anyone out there with an interest in this area of MF who could act as a moderator for this sort of question (or is anyone interested in general moderation). The software will support multiple moderators, and it would be useful to have someone with a little more experience pick through this type of qustion.

 

Thanks!

[russell_baker1]

Howdy,

 

I have been on this list "off and on" for over a year.

What I have noticed is that this list would be more aptly called,

"The Medium Format EQUIPMENT discussion group".

There is endless comparison of different brands of equipment,

countless postings of people talking about how sharp or unsharp

lenses are folks asking about what camera they should buy.

 

But here is no real discussion of people doing PHOTOGRAPHY using medium format equipment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I often wonder if the vast majority of the folks on this list

ever use their eqipment for shooting anything but test charts!!!

 

Now I have learned a lot about equipment from this list and it's

knowlegable members.

 

But here is more to this Hobby/Career/Lifestyle, than collecting

and talking about equipment.

 

My medium(and 35mm)format equipment are tools for producing Photographs.

 

Why don't we have some talk about USING this equipment and not just ABOUT the equipment!!!!

 

I shall now step down off from my soap box

 

Russ

R.E. Baker

Photography

[nolan woodbury]

Thank you Ron...I couldn't have said it any better!

 

Andrew Booth: Let me just say that I, for one, enjoy this forum and have gained in knowledge because of it. While I respect this individuals right to his opinion, I would think his views, complaints, and/or criticism would place him squarely in the minority of "MFD" members. I understand that the odd, or un-informed question will arrise from time to time, but..isn't that what this forum is all about? Finding answers to our questions? No matter how silly they (may) seem to the "high and mighty"? I hate that crap...that snobbish attitude. The way I see it Andrew, the subject line is right there in plain view for all to see. If you don't like the subject, pass to the next, or find one that does interest you. My point? Don't change a thing, and don't fix what isn't broken. BTW, I like cheap, used Japanese TLR's! Just ask anyone! :-)

[john_c.]

I agree with Nolan; if you don't like the question, go on to the next one. And I don't mind questions about equipment. I've learned a lot about equipment on this forum, and want to learn more. After all, we use equipment to take photos. Plus, some of us (like me) collect cameras in addition to taking photos, so questions about equipment seem pertinent. As for comments about one system or camera being better than another: well, everyone has an opinion, and some opinions are better informed than others. I'll take a Rolleiflex over a Kiev any day, for a lot of reasons, and why shouldn't I share those opinions with someone who asks?!? Apparently this forum continues to attract MF novices who don't know a Holga from a Hassy, and this is GOOD; but these novices need help from us �been there, done that� crowd. So, like Nolan says, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[peter_hughes]

Photography is a very technical medium, and, as such, people ask a lot of questions regarding technique--which may be boring but, I think, very informative and useful, not only for the beginner but for more experienced photographers as well.

 

Discussing the esthetics of photography is another thing entirely, and I'm not sure what value it has--if any. It's difficult enough keeping the "which camera should I buy" questions from degenerating into flame-wars (anyone who doubts this should check out the great "Canon v. Nikon" debates that rage on the Photoshopper forums!), let alone those questions pertaining to more philosophical matters, which often come down to nothing more than opinion--and we all know that opinions are like hemorrhoids: every asshole has one. Anyway, photography is a visual medium and talking about it is a bit like talking about sex: it may be interesting but sooner or later you just have to go out and DO it.

 

All in all, I think this is one of the best forums around. At least the kids seems to stay away.

 

My only wish is that more women would participate. In general, this is a problem with all photo forums, which are entirely dominated by men. Maybe women just don't like endless tech talk the way men do.

[roger___3]

As a humble amateur who couldn't even spell medium fomrat a couple of years ago, the discussions here about low cost camera/lens/format selection have been invaluable in helping me get started with reasonable gear. Now that I'm looking to upgrade the equipment discussions are again helpful. I must same that as a new comer to more serious photography and having little contact with other photographers beyond the internet, I have to think that there is a general obscession with equipment. Much like other avocations where equipment is indeed important (like bicycling, fishing, etc.), I would guess there are some who derive much of their pleasure from their equiment, which they may rarely use.

 

I suppose that's not really a problem, but it would be refreshing to have a greater mix of photo styles and techniques. Yet how much of this is indeed unique to MF and more a general photo discussion?

Roger

[murray_twelves]

There are a number of photography forums that I have frequented over time. I have found that his one has done the best job of holding my interest, and I have been pleased by the general civility among the participants here. I agree with other posters who want to keep this forum open to all, the way it has functioned thus far.

 

You could create segregated forums for professionals and amateurs, but you would still have amateurs crossing over into the professional forum, and professional photographers complaining about the amateurs elbowing into their sanctum. I don't think much would be achieved.

 

I use older Japanese TLRs, and I see no reason to apologize for it, or to consider myself less of a MF photographer. When using these cameras, my approach to photography is quite different from my approach to 35mm photography. I would hate to see this forum broken up along lines of "social class", between those who can afford or require extensive systems of equipment and those whose equipment needs are simpler.

 

I've heard it said that the greatest creativity in photography is to be found among serious amateurs, as we are not bound by the conventions and trends that rule commercial photography. My point here is not that commercial photographers aren't creative, but that amateur photographers should not simply be dismissed out of hand, either. We do have something to contribute.

[andreas_carl]

Andrew, I think the balance is fine. There are lots of equipment questions, sure, but I don't need to read them unless I want to, right? Keep up the good work.

[struan_gray]

I would prefer to keep the MF digest as open as possible. For me, it

is the variety of experience, backgrounds and budgets represented here

that makes it so valuable.

 

Pros already have plenty of closed forums where they can talk to other

pros, through professional associations and manufacturer's pro support

operations. Duplicating that here isn't going to help anyone.

 

Perhaps more agressive weeding would make the archives tidier, but I'm

not sure it would make them more useful. Most of the time I skip over

equipment-specific threads, but when I do want to find out more

information about, say, a Koni-Omega that is going for a good price in

my local shop, I love reading a mix of opinions from people with

widely differing perspectives. I'm an adult and capable of making up

my own mind who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't.

 

Bob Monaghan's site is a vast (and slightly rambling) repository of MF

information, which contains answers to a lot of the more repetitive

questions asked here.

 

http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/index.html

 

A link to that, or even a MF Digest FAQ page which points to the

relevant pages might lessen the burden on world-weary pros.

[ken_munn]

Hey Pall,

 

You can't hide in cyberspace. We know who you are and you can anticipate lots of questions about photographing glaciers, waterfalls, volcanos, retired killer whales, aliminium smelter construction sites, etc. Not to mention 4x4 super trucks, coming as you do from their ancestral home.

 

Congrats on your work.

[frank_ward1]

I've checked out a lot of photo forum sites and this one presents the best mix of materials and methods. The manufacturer sponsored sites are manipulated to sell cameras and the 35mm forum has too many critiques about photos that are a waste of pixels.

 

The MFD has a lot of talk about Kiev and Yashica, but hell, I know a guy who's telephoto Kiev images, with a little extra blurring, toning and softening, sell a lot at high end galleries. The equipment can make a person a photographer, or it can make an artist a photographer. It cannot make a person an artist.

 

I say, let the postings come. I even miss those XPan questions. If one wants to raise the level of debate, raise a more meaningful question. My only regret about the MFD is as Peter says, "Where's the women?" Frank

[jim_sabo]

Didn't we have this discussion a couple of years ago?

 

Seriously, this forum is capable of sustaining some very interesting non equipment/tech discussions. A couple I remember and could find are:

 

what should we be talking about here? (stefan P)

 

photographer's philosophy (stefan P)

 

I'm suprised no one has pointed out the obvious. Someone has to start each thread! If you want a non tech discussion, ask the question. Rare is the post here that goes unanswered.

[j. rivera]

I too think this forum is one of the best. Every question I've ever asked was thoughtfully answered. Yes there are a lot of equipment questions, but lets face it, most of us like hardware. There is nothing wrong with that. Actually, I've often wanted to ask non-photo questions on this forum. I respect the opinions of several of the regular posters. I say keep things the way they are.

 

Andrew, if you would like help moderating, please let me know. I think I could devote some time for that.

[rick_campbell]

Andrew,

 

I too like it the way it is. And I think these kind of things always end up talking about equipment. Just look at a computer chat!

 

Besides, it is the medium format board. If we just want to talk pictures then that removes the format specificity.

 

And we all think you do a great job and none of us are going to co-moderate. ;-), or, as they say in Japan (`-`)

 

Thanks for your hard work.

[jeff_drew3]

"like sand thru the hour glass, so are the days of our lives . . . "

I'd like to think all of us will evolve beyond where we are, yet have the time and patience to coach and teach others. I would also like to thank Andrew, Ellis, Frank, Peter, and many others for making this an enjoyable forum. It has helped me and encouraged me to try some other things.

Pall, if you want to immerse yourself in "red-necked truck" culture, come to Tomah, Wisconsin. 50+ percent of all new vehicles sold are glittery 4x4's and mention "medium format" and they think rubber mats! Ain't it grand?! $40K for a 4x4 flatbed to drive 2 miles on city streets to the job & buy beer every day! Yep, we are conservationists, ain't we? Sorry, guys, just vented a little!

[frank_ward1]

Jeff, I just bought a 4X4 Tacoma. My old one had a problem with "shudder speeds" and "if stops." Where can I get a "medium floor mat" and a back that tilts and swings? Fortunately, it already has a motor drive. Frank (AKA--Dual Airbags)

[steven_hupp2]

Stay away from 4X4. The last thing you want off-road is a superslide.

 

Seriously, the combination of professional and amateur posters is what makes this forum valuable to me.

[joe_rizzuto]

there is always 'the philosophy of photography' page if you want to talk about photography instead of equipment.

[raymond_tai]

But MF is about equipment. This equipment lets you get a bigger negative over 135. Period. Does it make you a better photographer then the Canon or the Leica guy? I think not. The biggest bullshit I have ever heard is that because MF is such a hassle to use that it makes you slow down and concentrate on the subject and blah blah blah. Even LF is more interesting because of the perspective control. All other discussions regarding photography in general can be found elsewhere. Have you been on the Hasselblad list lately? It is full of wedding pros talking about strobes. How interesting.

[david_daniel]

See Pall, its easy to get a more interesting discussion going on this board, just insult a large percentage of the participants! My thoughts:

1. Andrew, this is the only board I have remained on and its only the few posts that are not mf related slipping through that should be dropped.

2. Of course its equipment oriented, what else makes it mf?

3. Anyone know where I can get a great 4x4? I don't want to spend over $1200.

[liz_walters]

I was having a great deal of trouble photographing my Hassys quickly and came to this forum with questions about the Contax 645. They were answered by a variety of people with first hand knowledge about the camera. Then when I received it there were a few buttons that were mysterious, so I contacted those helpful people and voila! instant useful information. I find this forum very helpful and would like to keep it as open as possible.