repairmen and lenses,cameras, guns, watches

[dave schlick]

it must be me. almost every time i get a repair be it gun, watch,

lens, the repairman does the bare minumum, takes three times as long

as what he said it would be etc.. i ask them tto evaluate, call me

and well go over what needs to be done.. they never call do the

minimum job to get by and send it out with poor packaging sometimes

causing damage.. the last thing i took in was a schnieder 90 mm f8.

it had seppartation and a fingerprint inside the lens groups..

iwanted it cleaned.. while i was at the shop out of town i decided to

get the shutter cleaned oiled and timed becouse the time was quite

slow on the slow end,one sec 1/2 etc.... the phone girl called and

said it was done and for a modest price they would get it shipped

right out.. i asked to speak to the repairman/owner and asked if he

timed it, he said it was within factory tolerances. i said it is

adjustbable correct? and he said it is withing factory tollerances.

30 percent over to 15 percent under.. and they included a chart to

correct for all speeds. i said that i hoped for close tolerences ( as

the shutter did not apparently need a cleaning, i wanted it to be at

closer speeds on the lower end.) he got angery and said it was within

factory tolerences.. is it me or is getting a repairman to go a good

job and or call to see if extra work should be done at an extra

charge just ttoo much to ask.. i know when i take something in i

imply im a cheapskate, a thing from the past being a carpenter. but

useally ask them to call for problems. is bare minumum all we can

ask for in this world??? i had the same problems with fixing tools

in my cabinet shop, big charges and the tool would last less than 1/3

of orriginal tool, unless i sent it to the factory...the so called

best watch repairman in the area i have had to send back both watches

that were fixed becouse of problems upon recipt. one problem was

never fixed and he acted like it wasnt there.. i can go on for

hours, am i an obsecive nut or an idiot for not using very high end

servises that cost up to 3 times as much...maybe if i dont like the

timeing on the lens i should send it back and pay to get it timed

closer?.. i just bought a 2000 dollar sharps rifle. the best of the

best, guarenteed perfect by the seller (factory) it has blueing

bloches up to three inches long on the barrel in three spots. the

gun in all other respects is perfect, and shoots up to its

reputation, or better... i wont send it back becouse something else

could be ruined. luckily i have a gunsmith that knows how finicky i

am and does impecable work.. . thanks for your replys.. dave.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Dave; what kind of leaf shutter?<BR><BR>The Compurs on my Rollei have one tension spring for 1/250 thru 1 second; and two in series for 1/500 second. The actual shutter speed is set by a mechanical cam surface for the faster speeds; and a geared escapement ffor the slower speeds. There is no adjustments for each shutter speeds; unless one wants to start removing metal from the cam. Typical CLA involves cleaning out all the gunk; and sometimes replacing the tension springs. Many leaf shutters have now adjustment for each speed. Some focal plane shutters do. If the shutter is within factory specs; no adjustment is made. Removing metal from the leaf shutters cam only adjusts the shutter speed one way; if yours needs more metal; the repairman must find an unused/unworn cam.

[neil_poulsen1]

I've run into the same problem on lens timings. Repairman don't like to admit that they're work isn't exactly accurate, nor is it likely to be. So, I asked that the shutter not be adjusted, that they take five measurements per speed, and that they give me all the readings in thousanths, or ten-thousanths, depending on their equipment. In this way, I could evaluate my own shutterspeeds. I don't care if the shutter isn't exactly accurate, as long as I know the actual speed. This was OK, except that it cost extra cash.

 

I finally purchased my own Calumet shutter speed checker, and this is the best of all possible solutions. It reads in ten-thousanths, and I can get all the data I could possibly want, at any time.

[william_blunt]

as for lenses and cameras I use S. K. Grimes. Great work and turnaround time,

[s.k. grimes inc]

Thanks for the confidence but Dave Schlick reads like the "customer from hell" (Note that I wrote "reads like" not "is")

 

In this age of consumerism where the customer is king its become totally OK to rate, evaluate, and casually comment on any dealer or professional of any kind as if half baked and unauthoritative amateur opinions actually mean something.

 

The notion of a dealer or professional evaluating a customer is taboo, and I am taking a risk here.

 

In this specific case the customer may just have incredibly bad luck and judgement in selecting professionals. After all, the fingerprint inside the lens did not get there by skilled handling and I surely don't want to be the last in a line of incompetents.

 

Sometimes goods like this arrive at my shop for evaluation and the item is absolutely breathtakingly perfect with no defect whatsoever.

Such an item is returned immediatly with that report and a sincere hope that even further "damage" has not been inflicted in my custody.

 

Sometimes they arrive in poor or tampered condition from do-it yourself repairs or repairs by the local part time clock/radio/snowplow fix it guy. In that case I would most likely recommend replacement of the shutter with a new Copal shutter and avoid the repair since it is almost certainly a lose lose situation.

 

This is the process that I apply to strangers and minimizes the risk of being the next incompetent in line. Now in this case Dave, late in his message notes that he has found an excellent gunsmith and this is evidence that he is a demanding customer and not necessarily a total nut case.

 

I have many demanding customers and value their patronage. They have all gone thru a careful (though not necesarily conscious) process of mutual evaluation. Its important, if you are a demanding customer (most demanding customers deny that they are that and that they only want truth and justice that's naturally due, its too bad the world is in such a state etc etc etc.) that you establish a relationship with the professional in a way that he can demonstrate his competence and you, as customer can establish your requirements without scaring the daylights out of the him. If you show up as both a nut case and a cheapskate the professional is going to make short work of the evaluation. The pro won't tell you this but will see to it that you are steered somewhere else. And you will be plagued with having to patronize expensive and incompetent practitioners. Most really good professionals are reasonably priced because they can do their good work quickly and right the first time.

 

Incompetents need to charge more because they are slow and have to do it over and over as well as spend time arguing with the customer.

 

If you show up at a Doctor's office as a new patient with "I've had to sue my last three doctors for malpractice, what do you think of this lump?" Well you don't have to do too much figuring out to tell what the competent pro is going to do: "I'm not taking any new patients right now, why don't you go down the street and see what the new guy thinks"

 

SKG

[jerry_breault]

The best results you can get on any repair is to return whatever it is to as new performance. Parts can be cleaned, adjusted, or replaced, an item can be repaired or rebuilt/refurbished/renewed, but the end results are a device that performs to factory specs. If you want better than that, then you need to do business with someone that can re-engineer out the weaknesses that the factory left in. This paradigm holds true for everything, cameras, watches, guns, cars, stereos, bicycles, everything. To use your carpenter analogy, there are framers, finish carpenters, cabinet makers, and fine furniture craftsmen. Bringing your Stickley Sideboard to a framer to have a repair done will likely bring poor results, likewise, it would probably take forever for the furniture craftsman to build a garage or put up a fence.

In order to be satisfied, make no assumptions. Be specific when explaining the conditions you want corrected. Also, ask the service person how they will eliminate the condition, what the performance results will be, and how can you be sure. Also, demand they provide proof of performance and some written warranty on their work. If they are not specific in their reply, or will not provide proof or a warranty, contact another repairer.

 

The fact that these people called you when it was done, and were providing a chart of actual speeds is good. Also, letting you talk to the technician is good. Part of the problem may be that you presumed that a CLA of the shutter would solve the slow speed problem. Has the problem been solved? Have you tested it? Since it now performs to factory spec, the service provider did ensure the shutter perfomed as new. If you want better than that, you probably need to find a higher end shop, or buy a more precise shutter.

 

There are bad repair places out there, but there are also some good ones. This holds true for lawyers, doctors and dentists too. The consumer has to be able to tell the difference in order to protect themselves. When you find a good one, spread the word. If you feel you've been cheated by a bad one, seek compensation. If all you ever find are bad ones, your evaluation criteria may need revising.

 

Jerry

[scott_fleming1]

I found your post enormously interesting and enlightening. You made tremendous sense.

 

Unfortunately things have gotten to a pretty bad state in this economy and market. Partly because of the impersonal nature of our society (ie nobody knows anybody anymore) and partly because of slash and burn capitalism. Most of us have bad experience after bad experience with every sort of service personal all day long. It sort of puts us in a bad mood. Then we develop a defensive attitude that only exacerbates the situation.

 

Unless one has an unlimited budget one must try and economise on just about everything one purchases. Not being a professional photographer I am going to find that Schneider lense almost new on e-bay rather than brand new at B&H or, heaven forbid, the local camera shop. Cost cutting is something we all do every day in a hundred ways. Part of this process is getting something done right the first time just like we ordered it. In my experience this happens no more than half the time no matter how hard I try to watch for the curve ball coming my way.

 

You are a very rare bird indeed in this world today. A truly competent technician. If you were twice the price of the guy down the stree I'd still do business with you because in the long run the aggravation you save me will be more than worth the dollars. Our challenge as consumers is to somehow find the Steve Grimes of the world and not let ourselves become completely grumped out curmugeons by all the incompetents we have to sort through to get to .... you.

[dave schlick]

very good info here..thanks to you all.. i will post the lens specs that come back when they get here and you will be the judge.. ill post it as "lens repair speeds, factory specs". i agree with the framer, cabinetmaker post.. but for the work im talking aobut i send the the best workmen in the area.. already i am seeking nationaly rated watch reapairmen.. those that are said of being high of price but do excelent work.. a 120 year old watch that needs to be repaired turns out to be a nighmare in an average reapirmans hands im finding out..they cant restore it in a reasonable timefreame and make a profit. or they dont know how.. they want to clean, oil put back together and charge you 85 bucks.. they cant fix the watch, they wont tell you they wont or cant, they want the easy clean and oil, do that and return it running slow, fast or quitting after a month.... MOST repairmen arnt like that, but the list is growing, and growing fast.. they are in it for the buck, not satisfaction of a job well done..

i just occured to me that my computer has increased the profeits in my buisines almost 50 percent. every customer is evaluated and notes are givin as to thier type, and risks involved working with them.. before i give them a quote i check thier record, i have a pawn shop, and i find out if they are a thief, dump all thier goods to make me sell, or pick up all thier goods for the interest rate i charge..before i quote... a reapair man should do the same. a customer who you had a blow out with two years ago about quality of reapair you can 1 1/2 x the price on repair and if he sends it in do the work do it to justify the extra cost or pay shipping if he is right,next itme add shipping cost lost to the 1 1/2x bid, and i doubt you will have any more trouble with that customer. or if he goes somewhere else that is better for yhou becouse he wants more than he is willing to pay for..believe me it works. get a computer and list your customers., evaluate wheat they are loling for before you quote.. wall mart is the proof.. they are doing exceptionally well becouse of thier return polciy..the returns they get are a pittance of sales.. i had a customer come in with a complaint that his chain saw sharpener didnt work, i apollogised,gave him another one and said i hope he could make it work between the two of them.. he bought a used tv and left. i have rail riders who say they buy only from me! i have no idea where i got that priveledge except i try to be honest as i can possibley be.. it isnt hard to go the extra step, it isnt more expensive, it pays back double.. wall mart isnt run on the bottom line.. they have nice people who dont argue with you, its clean,neat, most departmants have people who now thier goods, they take almost everythning back without a reciept.. thats not bottom line, its good buisiness. hard botom line buisiness are going broke. read it and weep.. thanks for your responses dave.

[kelly_flanigan1]

I bought a Rolleiflex Standard from the "camera parts column" in Shutterbug Yellow Rag in 1975 for 30 bucks; with a sticky shutter. I dissasembled the camera; and removed the shutter; and tried to CLA it myself. When I got to the gunky slowspeed mechanism; I gave up. I sent the shutter with loose springs; cam; etc to Professional Camera Repair; with a note on what I had done. The CLA cost 38 bucks; the Forscher crew did a good job; the shutter still works well today in 2003. They were a good bunch; and had a good sense of humor with my note stating I now needed the professionals to finish the repair job. I was expecting a repair bill of 60 to 90 bucks; and was shocked at the 38 buck price. It was low because I returned only the shutter; and stopped with "my repair" before I goofed up the old compur.

[kelly_flanigan1]

In my area of the country; very few items are repaired. The repairs are costly; many people discard their items and buy new stuff. Our front load washing machine was marked "unrepairable"; because the locals dont know how to fix them; so I learned to get online and buy the parts; and fix it myself. It is a 1976 model; the last one we had was from 1947. <BR><BR>My hedge trimmer was used to cut away grass in a rural area; and broke the gear when it ate a piece of rusted barb wire lying on the ground. ALL the local repair places WILL not repair any electric hedge trimmers. So I removed the gear case; found the number on the gear; and ordered two gears from the factory. The local "factory authorized service dealer" would touch the 6 month old trimmer; but the factory would sell me two gears with postage for 12 bucks total.<BR><BR>

[s.k. grimes inc]

I am similarly plagued by the distressing abundance of incompetence in what seems to be every encounter. <p>

The stories I can tell: Sometimes its amazing that anything gets done'

at all. I approach each such search with a cynical certainty that the

odds are against me. Last year I spent over $3000.00 on what turned out

to be an incompetent con-man web design expert. I hired and payed a

substantial sign on bonus to a former employee of the famous Marty Forscher who

turned out to be a complete nincompoop non-performer. ("Well, I thought

you were hiring me to conceive of and design the work, not actually do it")<p>

 

At least I have a good car mechanic, to quote an old joke. "He's so good he repaired my car 14

times last year alone." :-) <p>

 

And I am by no means immune to showing up as an idiot myself. Recently, in a team

effort including myself all four employees reviewed and participated in a job for a

new customer making a number of very large sized lenscaps (9" diameter which, with

material costs turned out costing about $225.00 each, most of which was material

cost. There were two versions of the lenscap. We managed to make eight of the one he wanted

two of and two of the one he wanted six of. At such a time all you can do is stop crying,

start laughing, and take a posture of abject apology to the customer and get on with

ordering more stock. <p>

 

Recently I needed to purchase a second computer lathe. I began the process of shopping around and,

although satisfied with the performance and company support of the

<a href="http://www.southwesternindustries.com/swi/">

PROTOTRAK </a> lathe I have had for a couple of years I found it a little primitive and wondered

what else there was out there. I found and visited <a href="http://www.fryermachine.com/">

Fryer machine company

</a> who are within easy driving distance of my shop and got a really gee whiz demonstration

of a totally cool and very attractive product, the "touch 2000" Many sophisticated and

well thought out features and ergonomics. But I couldn't find anyone to say anything

good about this company. My suspicions (already 99 out of 100 cynical as is the topic of this

rant) were aggravated in finding out that the "Proudly Made in the USA" statement on the

web-site should have read: "Proudly uncrated and painted in the USA from machinery made at

state factories in China" <p>

 

When I told the SWI (proudly uncrated and painted in the USA from machinery made in Taiwan and

Spain) rep that the delay in my purchase desicion was due to the fact that I was

considering this new lathe I perceived the pained look of patience that comes from the

dilemma of it not being good protocol to bad-mouth a competitor but nonetheless wanting to

communicate "Danger Danger"<p>

 

Since this is a $30,000.00 purchase its not something I wanted to take a chance on and have

duplicated the Prototrak lathe. I appreciate its primitiveness as the versatile simplicity that

it seems to be. <p>

 

The point being that I successfully used my cautious and cynical attitude to avoid a $30K disaster<p>

 

SKG

[dan_fromm1]

Steve, y'r last comments re contemplated lathe purchase explain why some of us come back to you. Thinking of which, I'll call you tomorrow to inform you in person that I'm sending you another lens from hell (actually another larger TTH) to be extracted from the mount its in and put on board.

 

Cheers,

 

Dan

[scott_fleming1]

I was perusing your website the other day and was amazed to see how you all make lense caps. I'm assuming you have figured out the best way to do this. Why isn't some form of moulding as good or adequate?

 

One more question that occurs to me: Most of the material when making a cap would appear to end up on the floor. Can you recycle the shavings?

[neal_shields]

I just had the opposite problem. I was ebayed on a movie camera that I brought for my collection. It had been dropped and the turret broken.

 

An 80 year old friend of mine used to be the Bell & Howell authorized service center. He sold me a new turret and then showed me how to put it on. My camera, my turret, may labor.

 

After I put it together the first time. He said that it wasn't functioning smoothly enough. Suited me just fine. He made me take it apart and put it back together 3 times before it met his standards.

 

Long and short, it wasn't leaveing his ship till it was RIGHT.

 

I don't think we value craftsmanship today the way his generation did, so it shouldn't supprise us if it is hard to find craftsmen.

 

Neal

[jonathan brewer]

One of the most important assets is located right here @ http://www.photo.net/neighbor/opc.tcl?category_id=0 which gives customer feedback on labs, shops, technicians, people selling on the internet.

 

I make my own furniture, I won't make it for anybody else since I no longer have the time and because nobody wants to pay me for the amount of work I put into it, I've had friends, relatives, and strangers ask me to make something for them, they'll see my coffee table with curved legs in the living room and they'll ask me how much would it cost them for me to make the same table for them.

 

When I tell 'em how long and how much for the same table, they tell me that they can go down to Home Depot and get a table for such and such, it doesn't matter that I explain to 'em that that table is made out of particle board and staples, all they know is the price is cheap.

 

My coffee table is made out of Mahogany, the four legs which are an inch thick are curved in arc and are actually several pieces of 1/8 thich layers laminated together by glue and a former which was pressed together with a vise, and then everything stained and finished, it took me a couple of months to do this table, it will last forever if my kids don't do it in.

 

The trouble nowadays is that a lot of folks don't want to pay for 'old school', same thing applies to Steve Grimes, he is honest, won't do the job if he can't do it, will explain what you need to do, even when that isn't making him money.

 

When I got my Minolta Autocord I was refered to Ross Yerkes, I knew from my first conversation with him that he was a good technician , because instead of telling me he would do the job(CLA), he said he would have to check out the camera to see if it was worth fixing, in other words, he was willing to cut himself out of some money in order to be honest.

 

With Steve Grimes and Ross Yerkes I don't have to say much, they know what to do, with other folks(my mechanic, Docter, plumber, Electrician, I feel compelled to go through a very deliberate process at first so that there are no misunderstandings including a detailed description of what they're going to do.

 

Years ago I had stopped up toilet, called a plumber who advertised 'unclog any drain, toilet for $29.95', called the guy up, 'are you sure it's only $29.95?', 'positive', so I had the guy come over and he sure as hell unclogged the toilet, and then demanded $129.95. 'What are you talking about!, you said $29.95', he says 'yeah but the trip charge is $100.00.

 

The last thing I ask when anybody is doing anything for me is what is the total, OUT THE DOOR. You know some people unfortunately don't consider honesty and trust necessary to how they do business which is just a fact of life.

[dave_schneider]

One of the things we need to remember about repairs is that is takes a very skilled person to repair an item. The repair tech has to have a thorough understanding about how the item works. Then he has to diagnose why it doesn't work. Then repair what is causing it to not work. In many cases the item is not repairable due to large scale integrated components, sealed assemblies and all the other modern manufacturing techniques that have improved the performance of most machines while actually lowering the cost. The repair technician has to be very skilled and well trained, ie he is a very expensive employee. The workers who are operating the manufacturing equipment can be much less well trained and skilledm provided that the manufacturing process is well engineered. The bottom line is that it is cheaper for many manufacturers to not repair any item. Several of the manufacturers that I work with have adopted this policy. If an item comes in for warranty claims we first determine that it doesn't work. If it is not working it probably goes right to the dumpster and a new unit is sent to the customer. This is much more cost effective for the manufacturer than having a staff of high paid repair techs.

[jonathan brewer]

'In many cases the item is not repairable due to large scale integrated components, sealed assemblies and all the other modern manufacturing techniques that have improved the performance of most machines while actually lowering the cost.'..........................................................................

 

........But if you don't have any technicians to fix it, what actually is the actual cost of buy something over the long term? Particually after something has gone off warranty. The cost of something is the total you paid out over the length of time you used it, service, repairs, maintenence, et al, so you essentially have a piece of throw-away gear, all the advantages go to the seller after the warranty is done.

 

This is so much more that statistical studies and projections by bean counters, imagine a world without folks like Steve Grimes who can fashion custom pieces and one off adaptors and for real cheap, that is an incredible resource which would cost thousands if not more from other folks.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

So Dave, are you saying that manufacturers are making stuff the cheapest possible way and then they hope and pray it does not break until the warranty period is over? Sheess....Sometimes progress depresses me.

[dave_schneider]

I didn't say they were making it the cheapest possible way just to last past the warranty. They are making it to provide the longest possible service life with the greatest economy of manufacture. Repairing items is simply not economical in most cases. If you have doubts, take a VCR, CD player or kitchen appliance in to the repair shop. Oh, wait, the appliance repair shop that was in my neighborhood closed years ago. Well, think up another example of something you get repaired. You think of perhaps your car. The truth is more and more car parts are simply replaced. Ever tried to get a starter motor rebuilt anymore, costly, isn't it.

 

There are lots of criticisms leveled against manufacturers in all areas, not just photo equipment, for making things so cheaply. You've heard it all, too many plastic parts, aluminum gears instead of steel, on and on. Yet how many times in this forum and others does the message title include something like "looking for the least expensive" or "don't want to spend too much." It extends to posts on buying from Hong Kong, Robert White, etc. Face reality folks, nobody wants to spend more than they have to. When I see postings in this forum that say "I want the perfect____, cost is no object" I'll be the first one down at the manufacturing engineers office in my company telling him to forget about cost controls. My company serves a cost conscious market. There are no markets that are not cost conscious. Keeping a staff of skilled repair techs is more costly than replacing items that fail. That cost is passed on to the consumer of every product, not just the ones requiring service. People like Steve Grimes offer a very different service.

[jonathan brewer]

Rich Photographers, rich amateurs, well off doctors and lawyers are the kind of folks who can tell you 'cost is no object', if you're not in that position you have a finite discretionary amount to divide up for gear. Most photographers must make every penny count because they have to, they have a certain amount of bucks and that's it, which cannot be compared to how a company and how it can create the largest profit margin.

 

It makes perfect sense for manufacturers to be cost concious, their number one priority is to stay in business and then make a profit, but the demands of the marketplace determines price points, profits go into their pockets, not a lot of folks give it back, 'pass the savings on to the customer'.

 

My first software OS for my computer was w-----s NT, it would not work 50% of the time, the first time I called up m-------t, they told me they would fix the problem but it would be $85.00 for the consultation over the phone, mind you I paid good money for a something I thought would work, they wanted to charge me additional money to get it to work the way it should've been working in the first place.

 

The issue is simple, at one extreme there is pure, heartless, naked greed, and at the other extreme there is loyalty to the customer, a belief in a well made product or service by individuals who feel that their connection with humanity is worth more than a few extra dollars.

 

Steve Grimes, Ries, Ross Yerkes and a lot of other outfits who are not big conglomerates stand to lose a lot more by not being greedy, yet they have the most reasonable prices, and I have a feeling that some of these folks know that they're never going to be filthy rich, which is probably why they're the people they are so without getting any more sanctimonious look at the medical profession, people now look at ending of human life as a cost cutting move.

[gene crumpler]

Everything has tolerances. An automatic Rolex watch is seldom better than +/-5 seconds a day(mine is fast by 7 seconds). Repair men results are variable.

 

For cameras, Hasselblad USA is the best going.

 

For watch repair, try www.capetowndiamond.com. They can fix almost thing.