Medium Format on a budget

[bodenner]

I have just started to develop my interest in photography. I have

taken several courses at a local art school and I have my own dark

room at home for lack and white photography. I have been using 35 MM

but am really interested in medium format. Does anyone have any

advice on a used camera to buy for someone on a budget say in the

$300 to $450 range.

 

Thanks.

 

Jim B

[roger___3]

Jim, I can refer to a bit of my own experience. I have a Yashica MAT 124. It is easy to use, fairly light, and gives very good results. It doesn't have interchangable lenses, is in the 6X6 format (which may be a plus or minus depending on who you talk with), and costs about $200 for a good used one. There are many other twin lens reflex cameras in that price range that others find more desirable. I've also tested several older folding cameras. These are light and compact, but many focus with a lens ring (you have to guess or use a separate rangefinder for distance). You also generally need a separate light meter. Many of these can be picked up for around $100. and can have a very nice lens. You can even go cheaper by picking up an old Kodak that takes 620 film and rolling 120 film onto the 620 spindles. With the folders you will also have a choice of format, 6x4.5, 6x6 or 6x9 but probably not 6X7. They can be a pain to use but are fun and even a cheaper way to explore MF. As they are older, you may have to shop around to get one that works perfectly. If you shop eBay, ofen you can save a few bucks, but lack the backing that a retail outlet has. If you want to have interchangable lenses, the first choice might be a Mamiya 330 TLR. I think these will still be in your budget and seem to get good reviews, though I know little about them. Also in your price range would be an older 2X3 press camera with a roll film back such as a Century Graphic. These are probably a bit more combersome to use, but offer a little more controll of perspective with some movements of the front lens standard. You can get a roll film back in several formats and could get a few plus the camera and lens and still be in your price range. since you appear to have a preference for B+W, you can use several backs to have variable control of your negative development (ie zone system). If you want to spend a few evenings reading about these and more, check out - http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/budget.html I have been spoiled by larger formats and would highly recommend it even if you can't get some of the more expensive equipment. Roger

[donald_karon]

I have a Mamiya C220, little brother (read "lighter") to the C330. It is simple, rugged, the lenses are quite good and you can pick them up cheaply. They are no longer in production but plenty of them are around. I think an old TLR is the ideal intro to medium format.

[bill_moore]

<a href="http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/gindex.html">HERE</a> is a great overview of what's available in all price ranges. <a href="http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/pw/suggest.html">HERE</a> is another article called "Medium format on a budget"

My opinion? The Mamiya C series twin lens cameras give the best value for the money. Good luck.

[max_elliot]

Depends on what types of photographs you tend or would like to take. The Mamiya C220/330 is the best "all around" choice... lots of stuff on the used market, good prices, lots of good glass, can do head shots and close-ups, well built. Fixed lens TLRs such as the YashicaMat are also a good start in MF, but if head and shoulder portraits are your main interest, a fixed lens camera would be a bad choice. On the upper end of your budget may be a MF SLR such as a Mamiya 645. Also remember that your enlarger will need to handle MF negs, so budget for a lens, neg holder, 120 reels, etc.

[michael_linn]

If you are moving from 35mm you should consider staying with single lens reflex cameras. I recommend Pentacon Six TL as that is the most logical move for you unless you have unlimited funds. I have several 120 format twin lens cameras including Yashica, Ciro, and Voghtlaender, but my Pentacon is my favorite. A twin lens reflex may not be the best camera for you. In your price range, I recommend that the best you can afford are the Pentacon Six cameras with the usual Zeiss Jena Lenses- which are unmatched for the cost and are in your price range. You can get a Pentacon Six with a Zeiss lens for around $200 but not for long. These cameras and lenses are going up in price and I would recommend that you get one soon. These cameras are the best bet in your price range.

[charles_bandes1]

You may also want to consider the Fuji 645 rangefinder cameras.

As long as you're comfortable with rangefinder focusing, you can

get a very versatile camera with a nice wide-angle lens, built-in meter, rugged body for under $500. The only downsides are that the cameras don't have intercchangeable lenses, and they don't do multiple exposures. (They also have a weird "Bulb" variant which takes some getting used to.)

 

I have a Fuji GS645Pro, which is the non-folding version of the 60mm

lens camera. It's really wonderful, I bring it with me when I travel,

and love it. Only problem is that because of the wide-angle lens, and

the lack of multi-exposure, it isn't good for my "serious" work, but

that's more about my working style than the camera...

 

Worth a look - check on ebay.

[steve_boyd]

Hello, I am new to this website and forum. I am a photo freak like the rest of you and also wish to get into the medium format arena. I dont know that much about it and thus may have stupid questions so please forgive me. I was thinking about buying a 6X6, possibly Kiev 88, Salyut, Yashica, or even used Hassy. In this format, how much can i shoot hand-held? I really dont like using a tripod at all. Also can anyone else suggest good places to start in medium format (I dont need to sell pictures, I just love taking them and want good results, especially optically). Thanks

[patric_parker1]

Steve: As you follow this forum, you will see many people suggesting a TLR as a starting place. I got a Rolleicord V, old and cheap as MF goes, and was amazed at the quality. Because of the lack of mirror, hand held shots are much steadier than with an SLR. Try one out for a couple hundred dollars. If you take to the 6 x 6, you can then start playing the fool like the rest of us and work on building a stupidly expensive system (Hassy in my case). Even then, you'll still carry that TLR when you're worried about weight, breakage or theft (the places where you'll get your best pictures).

[david_goldfarb]

I had a Pentacon Six for a while, and while it was cheap and great for street photography in Eastern Europe (attracted less attention than my Canon), it was mechanically unreliable, particularly the film transport. The build quality of the East German Zeiss lenses also left much to be desired.

 

I'd second the recommendation for a used Rolleiflex or Mamiya TLR in your price range, or if you want to spend a bit more and have a system-type camera with interchangeable lenses, finders, and backs, you might look into a Bronica S2A.

[john_hicks___]

I'd strongly suggest a clean used Mamiya TLR; they're not particularly expensive, lenses are good, accessories and repairs are readily-obtainable.

 

For a bit more money into an SLR, a clean used M645 would be great.

 

Avoid east-Europen stuff such as Kiev etc; overall they're unreliable, some lenses aren't so hot, and if you want to get rid of it you'll probably have to give it away.

[shutters]

Steve,

 

I don't wish to beat a 'dead horse', because the previous contributors are right on the money. There is one consideration you may wish to make prior to any one of these great avenues: building your system and how you may want to use it in the future. If you can ever see yourself doing studio stuff later on, think about the kind of lighting you will want. The Bronica S2A is a fantastic camera with lots of 'goodies', but the flash sync is 40 (focal plane shutter.) So 'hot-lights' are in order. However, using the 105mm Nikkor Shutter-lens will allow flash sync at any speed, but you are limited to the 105mm. Hot lights are great - but, they're 'hot!' I use them and am satisfied - but there are obvious allowances that must be made.

 

The Mamiya TLR is excellent. However, if you should ever need an interchangeable back - the Mamiya 645 is best. Both models have the necessary flash sync you will need due to leaf shutters, and will work with Hot/Cool lighting and have a broad range of accessories/lenses at great prices.

 

The other piece of advice I can give you - do get yourself a solid tripod. Even with 'leaf' shutters such as Hassy, the Mamiya TLR/645, etc. (lots of other great cameras), the clarity and the ability to concentrate on composition without having your 'hands full' makes a big difference. Especially when MF cameras are quite abit heavier than 35mm. And weight in MF varies from camera to camera. The Mamiya TLR is 'HEFTY' and so is the Bronica S2A. I have both.

 

FWIW IMHO - Good luck on your purchase. Gr

[norman_trabulus1]

Medium format does not necessarily mean switching photographic styles and using a tripod, etc. There exist small and inexpensive medium format cameras which can be used like, and are no larger or less easy in the hand than, 35mm cameras, although without autofocus, autoexposure and often without any focus measurement at all except your own guesstimate. These are the old folders, some of which have high quality lenses and shutters (Super Ikontas, Ikontas, voightlander bessas and perkeos, and others, including the Russian Moskvas etc.) and all of which date from a time when 35mm did not have its present seeming monopoly on street or candid photography. You must be prepared for handheld metering - get a general metering overview before taking a series of photos, feasible with b & w or wide-latitude color print film like NPH - and learn to scale focus (easier than it sounds, main problem is remembering to do it.) Separately cocking the shutter is but a minor nuisance and soon becomes automatic and nearly instantaneous; if the camera has a tessar-type lens (coated is preferable, but not necessary) and a decent shutter, you will be amazed at the results, which will equal those of bulkier and more obtrusive entry-level TLRs. Try to get a model with an automatic film counter (Super Ikonta B and Voigtlander Perkeo 2 have these), as this minimizes dependence on the red window, with its potential for mistakes and fogging). If - and it is a big if - you are not frustrated or stymied by the totally manual function of these cameras, you will really be pleased with them. It is a matter of temperament: even if you have no experience with manual cameras, if you prefer sailboats to motorboats, or stickshift cars, these are probably for you.

[s._fisher]

Is the Pentacon 6 better or worse quality than the Kiev 60?

[gene crumpler]

If you decide to get a Mamiya C220/330 system, be sure you get the newer black lenses rather than the old chrome ones. I understand they are still repairable. Also look out for misaligned focus of the two lens. Been there, done that.

 

On the positive side the lenses are up to profesional quality. The C220 is a pretty light camera to carry, the c33/330's a bit heavier. Try to get a 90 day guarantee from the seller so you have some recourse if you have problems. Any used camera is a bit of a crap shoot!

[irving_greines]

While many medium format cameras can be shot handheld, some are very awkward to use that way. For example, the Hassy can be shot handheld; this is especially true with the newer (more expensive) CW model, which has an optional winder with motor drive. However, in my opinion, the Hassy (even one equipped with the grip and winder) has never been convenient for me to shoot handheld.

 

I recommend two medium format cameras that can easily be shot handheld and are becoming less expensive on the used market because they have been superceded by newer models. One such camera is the Pentax 645. It has a very low profile and is a quick medium format camera, very similar to shooting 35mm. It has a built in grip and motor drive and the prices on the 645 used, with a manual focus lens, are reasonable.

 

The other medium format camera I recommend you consider is the Mamiya 6. It's light, very portable; it has a very low profile and its optics are excellent. Once again, the camera has been superceded by subsequent models and can be had relatively cheaply.

 

One camera is an slr (the Pentax) and the other is a rangefinder (the Mamiya). Both have interchangeable lenses. The optics are excellent on both.

 

While both the Pentax 645 and Mamiya 6 are undoubtedly more expensive used, than some of the twin lens models, I believe they are easier to use hand held. Also, I believe their value will hold up at this point, since the going prices have already been beaten down by the subsequent models.

 

Good luck.

[steve_boyd]

Thanks for the info. I have a few more questions though. First, I think I am going to want a medium format camera with interchangeable lenses. Does the Rolleicord V take other lenses? And how heavy are the Mamiya c220 and c330 (I've read the c220 is lighter in comparison...I'm used to carrying my f100 and big 80-200 lens so in comparison to this)? Also, I'm trying to figure this out - are TLR's easier to shoot hand held because of the mirror or lack thereof?

 

I thought a yashica would be nice as its light and has a built-in meter but I will always have my f100 and will probably buy a handheld meter too so that's not really necessary. But the yashica can't take other lenses. But those that can seem to be much heavier and possibly optically of lower quality. Hmm, I'm really unsure. Any more suggestions? Thanks again. Steve

[gene crumpler]

The Mamiya c33 I have weighs less than a motorized nikon with an 80 -200m f2.8 AF zoom. The 220 is even lighter than the c33/330. I would not recommend the yashicamat based on my experience with two of them, not very sturdy. Others have had good luck with their yashicamats.

 

The c220 requires that you cock the shutter on the lens, while the c33/330 cocks the shutter as you wind the film. This is not a big deal if you are shooting slowly or on a tripod. Wedding photogs. prefer the c330 as it is faster. A used c220 is less likely to have seen heavy pro use, plus it is about $100-150 less with the same lens.

 

FWIW.

[gene crumpler]

Also, none of the TLR's except the Mamiya accept interchangable lenses. The ability to change lenses and their reasonable prices made these cameras very popular in the 60's and 70's. The optics are generally of professional quality, but are not quite up to modern lens standards. But for $250 to 400, they are a good deal, if you can get a good one.

[michael_meyer1]

i have been shooting with my c220 for about three years now. i also shoot with a nikon fe2 with md12 motordrive. i don't know if the comparison helps, but the c220 is lighter than the fe2 with the motordrive. i believe it is about the same weight asthe f100; but this is after only a cursory toying with a friends f100.

 

the 80 on mine is the later black version, but lacks click stops and i believe also any coatings. even though i shoot without a lenshood i've never had any problems with flare. the lens is sharp to boot; one project i did involved shooting light patterns on the building across a courtyard, even with long exposures (and unfortunately through a window)the images were sharp enough that you could see the detail on the bricks themselves.

 

if you want lighter weight, go with the c220. cocking the shutter becomes second nature, it is a good platform for some light and sharp lenses (i hear the 180 is great), and will take a beating. just make sure whatever lenses you get are aligned (taking and viewing) and that all the seals in the back are alright.

 

-mnm

[darren_owens]

Okay...I may be WAY off base, considering your budget, but I would suggest the Holga for pure MF experimentation. Mine does not vignette (if at all.)

 

Sure, it's pretty archaic (good word choice?), and yeah it's kind of a barrell shoot for many applications, but for general "what does MF look like?" and "feeling" out the differences between MF and 35, I love it.

 

I primarily use 400ASA Agfa, but I also use Fuji (insert brand name)100ASA, and Fuji's MS100/1000 (a slide film), then based on pure guestimation, compensate for exposure with processing (pushing as needed).

 

Hey, it's not likely to win you any pulitzers, but MAN is it fun--and educational.

 

Darren Owens

[andy_aitken]

I don't think TLRs are a realistic photographic option anymore: no meter, limited lens choice and worst of all waist level finders. At that kind of budget the Pentacon 6TL is a much more usable camera with a superb choice of affordable lenses, (basic) TTL metering and familiar SLR handling. OK they're not the most reliable cameras in the world but they are much, much more reliable than and of the russian oferings (and much prettier). You can also use Kiev lenses - the 30mm f3.5 fisheye, 120mm f2.8 and 150mm f2.8 are all great lenses that would cost up to 30(!) times the price in Hasselblad mounts. CZ Jena lenses worth looking for are the 50mm f4 and the 180mm f2.8 - both are absolutely outstanding optics.

 

Don't make the common mistake of buying an affordable SLR kit (Bronica, Mamiya, Hasselblad etc.) with an 80mm lens only to discover later that all other lenses are way out of your budget - I did this once and always regreted it.

 

A good Pentacon 6TL should cost about $150 - $200 with a metering prism and 80mm f2.8. You can add lenses from 30mm to 300mm for similar prices. If the body packs in - just buy another one (especially if the prism is still ok as you only need to buy a Praktisix or non TTL Pentacon 6). What is there to lose?

[xato]

I just checked KEH for you and you can pick up a "bargain" M645 1000S for $179, and 80/2.8 for $105 and a 150/4 for $144 == $423 for a two lens MF system. I understand "bargain" in KEH terms is that it is working and returnable if not. You can always add lens later and if the body breaks just buy another one.

 

Warren

[beau_schwarz2]

Dependng on your photographic direction, a TLR could be a waste of time, money and effort or a low cost boon. I currently love the wide angle effects of a 20-24mm on my 35mm camera and the Mamiya dosen't have have that capibility. I also like doing closeups with 70-300 and a doplier, a TLR, even a Mamiya with its bellows isn't all that doing that.

 

But if you don't mind the limits of a 28 to 135mm equiv. lens (ie the 55 to the 250) and using a trypod to do landscapes and people, the Mamiya C3/C33/C330 can be a blast. If you want to do porttrature with flash, the lens sink at all speeds. And compaired to a SLR (atleast with the RB I tried) TLR's are pretty quiet. Unfortunatly mine's been parked on a shelf for three years sence the loss of a spare room to use as a darkroom.

 

For MF pinhole, try looking for a nonfunctional Afga or Ansco speedex on Ebay, $15-25. Trash the bellows/lens/door and add a pinhole (current project).

[john_dixon5]

Thanks everyone,

Andy, how do you rate the Kiev 60 against the Pentacon 6?

 

John