Ultra-Wide 6x6 lens

[ben_hutcherson]

I know that we can't(generally) get the kind of crazy wide lenses for medium format as we can get for 35mm, but I'd still like something that's as wide as I can realistically get.

 

My current systems are the Bronica SQ(a) and the Bronica S2. I have the 50mm Nikkor lens for the S2a, but nothing other than an 80mm for the SQ.

 

From what I've seen, the 40mm lens compatible with the SQ system seems readily available and affordable, although the 40mm Nikkor-D for the S2 isn't that much more expensive.

 

Also, it seems that the widest available is the 38mm Zeiss for Hasselblads. Aside from needing Hasselblad equipment to use it, it seems that I'm looking at a lens that needs an external viewfinder and the like. So, I'm writing that one off.

 

With that in mind, does anyone have any ideas on the two above options? I'm open to others if they are in the realm of being affordable, but am not inclined to invest in a new system now. Also, I'm not really interested in a 50mm since I already have access to one.

 

Thanks,

Ben

[michael_darnton2]

My brother had an S2a outfit with the 40mm, and I remember it as a pretty nice lens, and a bit smaller than the 40mm Hasselblad lens of his that I now own. The Hassy lens is so large I rarely use it or bring it with me, and I don't think that would be the case with the Bronica.

 

The lure of the 38mm Hasselblad was not the extra 2mm of width, but the total lack of distortion of this lens; handy for architectural work.

[ben_hutcherson]

Thanks-the 40mm Nikkor-D is definitely looking appealing. In general, the S/S2/S2a/C lenses tend to be small since you don't have to haul the the focusing helical around with them. That's definitely appealing to me. I use 20s and 24mms in 35mm a lot, and while many 20mms have a large front element(both my nFD 2.8 and my pre-AI 3.5 take a 72mm filter) they are overall not that large or heavy. Of course, I'm also less likely to take my S2a or C out in the first place since the bodies are so darn heavy :)

 

I'd be interested from hearing from anyone with the 40mm for the SQ. It wouldn't surprise me if it's similar in weight to the Hasselbad, but then I've never seen one in person. Prices for the Nikkor for the S-series are running $400-500 on Ebay, while I remember the last 40mm SQ mount KEH having being around $250.

 

It sounds like the 38mm might be one of those "must have" lenses, but I can think of photo equipment I'd rather spend $2K on right now than one of those.

[rodeo_joe1]

6x6 - No, there's nothing wider than the 38mm SWC 'blad AFAIK. But if you don't shoot square then Mamiya have a 35mm lens for their 645 series cameras, and a 28mm too I believe. Though I've never handled, let alone shot with the 28mm.

 

Kowa advertised a 19mm fisheye for the Kowa6/super66. Again those lenses are like hen's teeth, if they ever were produced. And there's a 30mm fisheye for the Kiev series MF cameras.

[jim_momary]

Ben -

 

According to user manuals for the SQ-A, the Zenzanon 40 mm F 4 = 660g, 50 mm F 3.5 = 560g, 80 mm F 2.8 = 470g, 105 mm F 3.5 = 540g and the 150 mm F 3.5 = 590g.

 

A BH former listing for the Hasselblad 40 mm F 4 CF/FLE Zeiss Distagon = 1130g.

 

if that's of any help.

 

Jim M.

[ben_hutcherson]

Thanks-sounds like the SQ lens is at least a fair bit lighter than the Hasselblad, and certainly small enough that I won't mind hauling it around.

 

Part of me is also reluctant to sink a lot more money into the S2a. I have it because the owner of my favorite local shop told me about getting it in and when he told me the price, I bought it before it even went out for sale. I picked up an S2a, a C, two 75mm, a 50mm, 135mm, 150mm, the rare hood for the 50mm, a full extension tube set, the tilt/shift macro bellow, and a handful of other rare odds and ends for $300. I should unload the Nikon to Bronica adapters, since I neither have any Nikon bayonet rangefinder lenses nor the correct Bronica bodies to fit them. Everything works fine and the optics are phenomenal, but I know that these bodies are a bit "quirky", have a lot going on, and there aren't many people who want to touch them.

 

Thanks for the info on lenses in other systems. I'm NOT a fisheye guy, so those are out. ETR series systems are cheap enough that I could easily justify buying a body for the wide lenses, even though I'm not a big 645 fan.

[rodeo_joe1]

"even though I'm not a big 645 fan." - If you crop after shooting there's absolutely no difference between 6x6 and 645. Same longside dimension; you just don't waste the bit of film you crop away.

[ben_hutcherson]

"even though I'm not a big 645 fan." - If you crop after shooting there's absolutely no difference between 6x6 and 645. Same longside dimension; you just don't waste the bit of film you crop away.

 

That is true, but I don't always crop to a rectangular format. I bought my first MF camera, a Rolleicord Va, in 2007, and have shot a lot of what I think are compelling compositions that work as squares but lose something when cropped to a rectangular format.

 

Also, I've never been big on prisms in MF, and going back to my TLR days(I still use a Rolleiflex sometimes) I feel strange with anything other than a WLF. I do have a 45º prism for my S2a, but it's dim and adds enough weight to the camera that it stays at home. I'm okay with 6x7 on a rotating back, but I don't want to deal with rotating the whole camera like you have to do on many 645s.

[ed_farmer]

I have a Russian made 30mm Kiev for one of the Kiev 6x6 bodies. I was NEVER able to get the body to work but I have used the lens, with an adaptor, on my Nikon film and digital bodies. The lens is excellent and very inexpensive. It is my understanding that these were modeled after an older Hassy body but someone here who is more knowledgeable (or at least has a better memory) can tell us if this lens will work with an H body.

[rodeo_joe1]

The 'blad-like Kiev was a copy of the ancient 2000F I believe. It had a focal plane shutter. I'm not sure that the Kiev's weird mount is the same as the 2000F's though.

[ondebanks]

I used one of those 30mm Kiev fisheyes - mine was a later one, labelled MC Arsat - on various 6x6 bodies (Arax 60 MLU, Kiev 6C, Pentacon Six TL) and also with adapter on a Mamiya 645. Great lens overall, with excellent central performance in particular.

But it is still some distance in performance behind the 24mm ULD fisheye that I now use on Mamiya 645 bodies.

 

This is tangential, as I know that Ben said he's not a fisheye guy. But in time-honoured photo.net tradition, when someone asks for info on a rectilinear wideangle for 6x6 film, we respond with info on a fisheye for 645 digital! :D I emulate the great 38mm Biogon on 6x6 film by defishing the 24mm fisheye on my old square Kodak DCS645M digital back. I end up with the same square aspect ratio, 90+ degrees angular coverage, and lack of distortion. Example below.

 

 

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/8885/JwfwAy.jpg

[JDMvW]

The widest I've got for my P6 system are a Mir 45mm and a Flektogon 50mm, half-assedly compared at Pentacon 6 Mount Flektogon & MIR - an old-fashioned shootout .

The other lenses in that mount almost always better than either of these, but if you want wider angle.......

[rick_jack1]

Hi,

I own the Nikon 40mm f4 P.C. (S2/EC) and Zenzanon 40mm f4 PS. Both are excellent lenses, but I'd give a slight edge to the Nikkor.. You are more likely to find the Zenzanon PS for a lower price than the Nikon 40mm and in better condition. I have seen them under $200 while your lucky to find a Nikkor for less than $400. Avoid the Zenzanon 40mm f4 S version, it is soft in the corners. I briefly owned a 35mm f3.5 PS fisheye but was disappointed and returned it. I won't mention other brands because they won't fit your camera. Avoid the 45mm f4.5 Komura as well, it is a dog. There is also a 40mm f4 Zenzanon MC for the S2/EC but it is very rare and will be expensive.

If money was no object, the Hasselblad Superwide camera would be a good choice, but for me I love my 14mm f2.8 Nikkor on Nikon D750 or F3.

I have some samples of images taken with the Bronica 40mm lenses here:

Bronica by Rick_Jack

[dan_fromm2]

Ben, if you're patient you'll be able to find a 38/4.5 Biogon in or in a mount for an aerial camera.

 

Now that I think of it, there's one, not badged Zeiss or Biogon, in this Fairchild Aerial Camera - Aerial Cameras - Various Cameras camera. I may have seen and touched the camera, I believe that my late friend Charlie Barringer had one. His cameras went to Westlicht = Leicashop.

 

If you get one, www.skgrimes.com will put it on a Copal #0 for you. I had them do this with one I extracted from an AGI F.135 camera. I use it on my Century Graphic. The lens covers around 84 mm, no more. On 2x3 that means a 24 mm x 82 mm strip with the last couple of mm of the corners totally dark. On 6x6, well, it means a lovely full frame.

 

The Century Graphic (or the equivalent 2x3 Crown Graphic) is a much cruder camera than an Alpa 12 but is much more capable.

 

For not much more money, you could get a 35/4.5 Apo-Grandagon. This is the shortest lens that covers nominal 6x9 (= 2.25" x 3.25"). It can be used on a Century or 2x3 Crown Graphic.

 

If I haven't been clear, there are 2.25 x 2.25 (nominal 6x6), 2.25 x 2.75 (nominal 6x7) and 2.25 x 3.25 (nominal 6x9) roll holders for 2x3 Graphics.

[ben_hutcherson]

Dan, thanks for the references on those.

 

I actually have a Graphic 22 back(6x6) but use it on my RB67. I wasn't paying that close of attention when I bought it-I actually intended to get the 23(6x8)-on my next visit to the shop I'll see if the whether the other holder I have is a 22 or 23.

 

I have a 2x3 Crown, but it doesn't have a Graflok back so I'm limited to cut film holders for it. I think my local shop has a 2x3 Speed with a Graflok so that would be an option. I know you know a lot more about Graflexes than I do, but from what I understand it's easier to just find a miniature Graphic with a Graflok on it than to try and find one separate from the camera.

 

In any case, I appreciate all the other responses. Rick, thanks for the complete run-down on the various lenses available for the Bronica.

[dan_fromm2]

Ben, the 38/4.5 Biogon won't work on a 2x3 Speed Graphic. The body's too deep.

 

Century Graphics have integral Graflok backs.

 

Your 2x3 Crown with spring back is not limited to sheet film. I use 2x3 Adapt-A-Roll 620 roll holders with my 2x3 Graphics. These are insertion type roll holders that will feed from a 120 spool but must take up on a 620 spool. An AAR 620 goes in like a sheet film holder.

 

2x3 is not 6x8. There are no real standards for roll film formats but nominal 6x9 is usually 56 mm x 82 mm, that is, 2.25" x 3.25". Nominal 6x8, as in the Fuji GX 680, is 56 x 76.

[ben_hutcherson]

Thanks again, Dan. I know that you are "the man" when it comes to Graflexes. You've helped me out plenty with Graflexes and LF in general both on the Gralfex forum and the LFP forum.

 

My miniature Crown is a Pacemaker. I've used it some as I have a bunch of film holders and still have some Efke 50 in the freeze. Overall, though, it's mostly just a shelf piece that sits on top of its original box. My 4x5 Pacemaker Speed is the camera I usually use, and even though I have a decent B&J field camera I like that I can use the freebie lenses with dead shutters I've picked up on the Speed. With that said, when I get "a round tuit" I'm planning on making a board for the B&J from scratch(I haven't found any aside from the one on the camera, and they're simple enough pieces of wood) with a square hole and locking rails in the center to take a Pacemaker board. There's plenty of area to do that, and it lets me mount future lens purchases on a Pacemaker board and use them on both cameras.

 

I'll keep my eyes open for a miniature Century Crown. They're certainly cheap enough these days and thanks to the Graflok on the RB67 I can cross-shop a lot of backs. I'll also keep my eyes open for the roll back you mentioned.

 

While I'm at it, I need to find a 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 carrier for my Besseler 23c. As I understand, the "23" means that it can handle that size film. I just wish I could find a cheap 4x5 enlarger...