A700 replacement and new path for Alpha

[jiun_der_chung]

<p>Well Richard, this is the news you have been waiting for:</p>

<p>http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2010/09/21/sony-affirms-nex-future-and-slt-path-for-alpha/</p>

<p>I wonder what you think of it. I for one am not that excited. At least not until the SLT becomes a proven technology anyway. And I would seriously miss an optical finder for most of my photography seeing as I don't need 10fps. lol</p>

[ricardovaste]

<p>LOL, is it? :)</p>

<p>I'm with you, not excited, not certain, just not really sure what to think. If they gave us a D300S with a few different things, I would be really happy like most. But they're obviously wanting to 'innovate' and push things in different areas - the obviously question, and a really important one, is whether any 'innovation' with compromise basic/previous photographic controls, output, useage. There really isn't any room for error when you're talking about a 7 series camera and up too - these people know their cameras, know photography, and don't want to be let down by an wizz-bang-latest gadget.</p>

<p>If there is any sort of delay, flicker, or rainbow-type-artifact in the EVIL viewfinder - EPIC FAIL. But they've taken years over this, so "surely they can't fail?"</p>

<p>The advantages are better tracking (as there is never a 'cut off' to the AF system as the mirror doesn't block off the light) and I guess a brighter viewfinder in low light. As you know, the AF system is the one area I feel let down by the A700, but there are stil lots of other features that they simply coudn't take away from me... I for one would like more external controls, not fewer. If they take away that C button and don't give us any other sort of direct control I will likely cry.</p>

<p>Just my thoughts :P</p>

[paul_de_ley]

<p>Not sure what to think yet, since we still haven't been shown anything more tangible than the same old mockup from PMA.</p>

<p>At this point Sony is clearly really happy with the initial reception of the a33/a55, but perhaps a tad too optimistic about how quickly it will catch on through the wider photography community. If lots of new SLT owners start reporting in the months to come that the ghosting is a significant issue however, then that may cause some rain on the parade and significantly dampen intial SLT enthousiasm, thus forcing Sony to reconsider an OVF-based a7xx after all.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if the limitations on the initial SLT models turn out to be much less of a genuine problem, then I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that an a77 could to a very large (and for me sufficient) extent step in the shoes of our expectations for an a7xx. Regardless of what is the real extent of any problem, no doubt the canikon strategy will be to play up the ghosting anxiety as much as possible, at least among on their own customer base if not among first-time buyers. So expect to read/see a lot about it in the ad-saturated photography press.</p>

<p>I am wondering though why Sony haven't shown us anything more developed with more detailed specs yet, other than the statement of principle that a77 is coming and in their minds will be "the" a700 successor. I also wonder why they didn't hold back the a55 and/or a580 announcement for Photokina itself, so as to leave something new for the event itself. With an a55 announcement at yesterday's press conference they could have indicated more clearly that the SLT line will lead to advanced models even if that advanced camera was still (and a very long still it is) under wraps.</p>

[ricardovaste]

<p>Now that the usual Sony-Confusion is out the way, can we talk about how beautiful that Fuji X100 is & how Jiun is going to buy us all one for Christmas? :)</p>

[left_ayyones]

<p>LOL indeed. Or more like BOO! If they can continue to fight the ghosting problem, then it will be great. And really, if you look at depreview's ghosting analysis for the a55, it's not a huge deal. But it will be something for pros to consider, especially if you're going to stay with Sony long term and the next top-of-the-line model is the a99</p>

<p>http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta55/page13.asp</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>We shot hundreds of frames with two samples of the A55 and the A33 in 'real world' environments, and after examining them all pragmatically as well as critically, we're confident that Sony has controlled this issue very well. Even in images where the effect is noticeable on extremely close inspection, it is largely of academic interest only. After exhaustive studio testing, we estimate that when ghosting is visible, it is roughly 8EV darker than subject brightness - or approximately 1/200th. In practical terms, the abberrations created by mounting a poor quality lens on the front of the A55 are likely to have a more noticeable effect on image quality than ghosting.</p>

</blockquote>

[mark_k3]

<p>This is not essentially the end of our expected A7xx upgrade. Things are improving. The essential thing left for Sony to do is how to keep up with competition from others. Take for Nikon for an example. The difference between A700 and D300 was too obvious. Side by side for years, I notice constant better image quality from D300 because of <br>

1. better processing<br>

2. better AF tracking<br>

3. better telephoto primes. </p>

<p>I have been wondering if Sony is doing something to improve their AF system. Looking at Nikon, if D90 can be upgraded to a specs seen on D7000, what will happen to a D300s upgrade?</p>

[paul_de_ley]

<p>I went to the local sonystyle store two days ago and handled the a33 a bit, as a result I'm now more inclined to agree with the online previews that describe SLT as potentially or actually groundbreaking. The EVF is not half as bad as I feared, although there clearly still is room for further improvement in the detail, color rendition etc. There is definitely weaker contrast and less vivid color compared to an OVF. Plus the various indiators such as digital level/artificial horizon almost give the a33's EVF a computer-game like look - and I don't mean the most recent super-realistic HDTV games. Those limitations are strongly offset however by the ability to boost light levels or magnification without taking your eye off, and no doubt the quality of the EVF will increase further in SLT models to come. The magnification boosting button is definitely in the wrong place but will presumably be reassigned in a firmware upgrade.</p>

<p>So on the one hand I feel no compulsion to buy an a33/55 soon, but on the other hand and I am all the more interested now to check out the a77 if/when it appears. It might really turn out to be quite an exciting model for current a700 users, even if it does not directly fit the various hopes and expectations most of us have been harboring for the a7xx - for what seems like an eternity now.</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mr. Chung... <br /><br />Thanks for the info. I guess it is time to switch systems away from Sony-Minolta. I usually shoot film. The only digital SLR I have is an old Minolta 5D. I have not used it in years. It is only 6mp. 7.2mp is needed to fully populate a puny 8x10. I thought of getting the A900 as I like full frame and 24mp but decided to wait for its replacement hoping that it might step up to the newer and better Canon or Nikon abilities. It looks like they just cannot get it together so they are trying to change the market. I sure like in-camera anti-shake which makes all my old premium white Minolta lenses "IS". The 100% optical viewer is great. EVF is a pain. <br /><br />On the other hand, I just shot a dozen rolls of Kodachrome in Miami with a Canon 7Ne and a 28-135mm IS lens I bought for that purpose. I liked shooting the Canon a lot better than my film Minoltas. It is probably because I used an old RT (when it was new and current technology) so much years ago the Canon just felt natural. I'm now waiting for the 5D II replacement and I'll just get a few "L" zooms as those lenses should resolve well enough for a full frame chip.</p>

<p>Sony...</p>

<p>Taking up Minolta along with its warrantee problems was an expensive but smart way to start out in the SLR market with a built in customer base. So now you throw it away and write it off???? ..........Goooooooood bye!</p>

<p>A. T. Burke</p>

[timb196]

<p>I guess I'm not ready to throw the towel in on Sony yet, although I was hoping that Photokina would reveal a little more. I guess as I see it, the following lines exist<br>

Mirrorless: Nex3/5 with 7 coming perhaps<br>

DLSR: A390, A450,A560,A580 and A850 (I think you can still buy the 850)<br>

DLST: A33, a55 with the A77 coming<br>

DLSR and DLST lines contain a common lens mount. Nex has the emount which it will share with the VG-10.</p>

<p>I think it is worthwhile to recognize that they have made a definitive and apparently successful attempt to improve their IQ. There is little differene now in my meanderings across the various cameras IQ. The SLT and the NEX line to a lesser extent show an investment in technology and it does appear that number of lens are coming to the use base on the lines. This is an area where I would like to see a little more emphasis rather than the body a month we seemed to be going through for awhile<br>

I haven't tried an a33 or a55 but in reading reviews the sense that I get is that most people who have tried have liked it. Like Paul says above it is not perfect but it seems to be pretty good.<br>

I could very well be enticed into a A77 assuming it had some additional functionality. My surmise is that Sony has done a lot of work with sensors and we are now seeing the fruit of that labor and investment. I think they have some intriguing ideas on what consititutes their line. An A99 might be most impressive.</p>

<p>That said my 900 and 700 both work well and my Maxxum 9 is coming back reay to go with the SSM changes so I'm set for a while</p>

<p>Tim<br>

I probably would have gone for a Nex 7 if it had been available as I'm still thinking of a digital light box for all those MC/MD lenes I have</p>

<p> </p>

[s._prior]

<p>I think it is safe to say that Sony has decided that SLT and NEX is where it is going to find its market share. What that means is that there will be fewer DSLR cameras that will be released as they concentrate more on SLT and NEX cameras. The fact that a successor to the A700 has been talked about for so long and nothing materialised says that Sony has decided to move away from traditional DSLRs.</p>

[timb196]

<p>There does seem a general ground swell that says "Sony is done with the DSLRs" because of the DSLT and the obvious hints about the A77. However, how does one reconcile that thought with the announcement of the 560/580. Maybe it's me but since they brought both of those DLSRs to the market at the same time as 33/55, they will follow the same model with the a77. I'm a little surprised the 560/580 combo are not getting a little more press as they seem to be capable models.</p>

<p>Tim</p>

[tom_montemarano]

<p>I have a question. I don't know if what I am seeing is important in the scheme of things, or is not.<br>

After I read the dpreview discussion on ghosting, I also saw that they had added a raw shot to their camera comparisons (their standard "raw studio shot"). I looked around at that shot in general and using their 100% comparisons. I compared the A55 with the NEX5 and the A550. In those comparisons, it seemed clear to me that the A55 was not as sharp as either of the other two cameras. As I looked further, I saw what appeared to be a band of low contrast where there were brights over darks. Not separate images like ghosts of street lamps, and not only where brights were blown out (for example the goldish bands on the bailey's bottle label.</p>

<p>I recall that there have been discussions that xyz had lousy IQ compared with abc at 100%. I did download some of the dpreview shots and looked at them at different magnifications, and the bands and reduced sharpness was obvious at lower magnifications. I did try to resharpen the images to see if I could improve them using a few different methods, but nothing really helped and some just "enhanced" the bands.</p>

<p>For video and small prints, I don't expect that the differences would be noticeable. But when people say they can't wait to use their G lenses or CZ lenses on such a camera I wonder why. If the camera limits the sharpness, what will the super sharp lens bring? And all of the shots so far are with new cameras. What happens when a fine layer of sticky dust starts to coat the mirror (I normally use my cameras for more than a couple of years)? For a 3 and 5 level camera or a second travel camera, again, I don't see an issue. For a 7 or 9 level (with their expected price tags) what's the attraction for a camera that shows it is not as sharp as an earlier model DSLR?</p>

<p>I respect the opinion of the posters on photo.net. This is a big issue for me since I have been replacing my moderate priced lenses with premium glass (because I do see a difference.) What am I missing?<br>

thanks<br>

tom</p>

<p> </p>

[paul_de_ley]

<blockquote>

<p>For a 7 or 9 level (with their expected price tags) what's the attraction for a camera that shows it is not as sharp as an earlier model DSLR?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>At this point my response would be: if only we had an actual 7 or 9 level SLT and/or SLR replacement to complain about in the first place!</p>

<p>No reason to assume that any genuine loss of quality due to the SLT implementation in the a33 and a55 will automatically transfer to the supposedly much more advanced a77. Maybe there are genuine issues that Sony still hasn't solved, and that could be one of their reasons for the endless postponement of an official announcement with full specs.</p>

<p>Then again for all we know = nothing tangible yet, there might be no such issues at all with the a77 and they're mainly keeping it under wraps as long as possible for specs-independent reasons (e.g. they want to release it along with the 500 f4) or other kinds of tactical reasons, e.g. to minimize the ability of competitors to have an immediate countermove ready a week or two after the official unveiling of the a77.</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mr. Prior...<br>

<br />"I think it is safe to say that Sony has decided that SLT and NEX is where it is going to find its market share." <br>

<br />I think so too. The question is "Is it by default or design?" I say default. They paid all that money to acquire Minolta's (SLR/DSLR) customer base so that they could expand it and not have to start from scratch. Then they took far too long to put out a new up-to-date product. It too came out at a higher than announced and anticipated price, a costly mistake which lost them some of what they paid for. But still I waited. Then they made THE top MP full frame unit and again it came out at higher than announced and anticipated price,. It did not perform as well as some of the competition's APS DSLRs with fewer MPs to boot. They lost some more ex-Minolta customers. But still I waited. Then their mid-priced offerings started coming out on a regular basis but seemed to come in third place in most published comparisons. They lost some more ex-Minolta customers. But still I waited. <br>

<br />Yes, they are attracting new consumers with the Sony name, good salesmanship/advertising and perhaps a lot of BS. However they may be realizing that they are losing their base customers faster than creating new ones. Their answer is to pick up their ball, glove and bat and go home with their tail between their legs. Considering their ability to compete that may be a good decision. Then how are they going to do in the SLT/NEX type of market? If Mr. Montemarano is right, and I presume he is, they haven't exactly entered their "new" business any better than they did with their DSLR business. How soon before they give up on that too? </p>

<p>So... I quit waiting and am now waiting for the Canon 5D II upgrade. I still like a real viewfinder. I can see more detail than the EVF has. Clarity of sight picture makes for better manual focus in the few conditions that the camera misses "tack sharp". </p>

<p>A. T. Burke</p>

[timb196]

<p>Mr Montemarano:<br>

Have you tired to dowload any other image from the a33? Most of those look pretty sharp to me. I find it it is difficult to judge IQ on a sample of one.<br>

I doubt that Sony is losing more ex-Minolta users than they are gaining new users regardless of line. Personally, I don't think Sony is running home with its tail between the legs. I am midly interested in the SLT technology and I'm interested in the 580. The 560 seems to have achieved pretty good reviews although one doesn't read much about it.<br>

However, I still havea 700 and a 900 that all work well so I have need to rush anywhere. I have been with Minolta sice my first XK back in 1976. I also wonder exactly how many users actually chnaged systems. Lots of words out there but little hard data<br>

Tim</p>

 

[tom_montemarano]

<p>Tim,<br>

I believe I remember you from the Yahoo Minolta group. Good to read your posts again. </p>

<p>I am disappointed because I was looking for an upgrade to the A700, and as I mentioned above I have concerns about the SLT. However, I will keep using my A700 and KM7D as long as they work. I have a nice collection of lenses and flashes and don't look forward to switching brands. I will also try the SLTs at my local Sony Style (if they ever get one in), to see how I like them or not. When a 7 series is released I will check it out also. If necessary and possible I will buy used A700/A850/A900 to keep things going. There are features of those models that I use that aren't in the A560 or A580.</p>

<p>But, unfortunately, there may come a time if things with Sony don't work out when I will need to consider another brand. I did back in 2000 and the Maxxum 7 kept me in the fold. But since then, I have not paid much attention to anything other than a-mount cameras. I will have to start learning, just in case.</p>

<p>tom</p>

[jiun_der_chung]

<p>Dear Mr A. Thomas Burke, Jr.</p>

<p>I don't quite understand why you are so disappointed with Sony. I mean to be fair, they gave us Minolta users a system to continue on. I have now had 3 Sony cameras, the A100, A700 and A900. I have been very happy with the A700 and A900. I have also bought some very nice Sony glass, particularly the Zeiss stuff. So the way I look at it, I am set for a while to come. Because the A900 realistically fulfills most of my digital needs for now. In fact I believe that the A900 will probably be the last of the purist cameras without all the other stuff that I don't particularly want or need.</p>

<p>Whilst I understand some of your complaints about Sony, most of us probably have similar ones, I don't understand your bitterness towards them. They are a commercial company marketing their goods in a manner that they think they can make money. Your complaints about their full frame offering seems misguided to me. Sony I believe with the A850 offer a price/quality combination that is not matched by anyone.</p>

<p>In fact I don't understand why you are waiting to jump to the 5DII. From all accounts it is a very capable camera. Sounds like you are never happy with what is on offer.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, I have a very capable system that I enjoy using. I am still hopefully that Sony will continue to offer stuff that I will enjoy using. I have no problems with innovation as long as it is innovating with good reason.</p>

[s._prior]

<p>A.T. Burke,<br>

I understand your view towards Sony. When I wanted to upgrade from my A-100 to a full-frame camera I thought the A-900 was going to fit the bill but unfortunately I wasn't happy at all with the noise it produced at high ISOs and wasn't sure when they would come out with an improved FF camera. I then went ahead and got a Canon 5D Mark 2. I always had second thoughts because I thought Sony might come out with a new and better FF camera. Well, the quality of the results from the 5D has been enough to justify my switch to Canon. I still use my A-100 and will probably use it till it dies.<br>

No one knows for sure what Sony's long term plans are for DSLRs. I just think that waiting as long as they have to upgrade the A-700 and not having a FF camera with video is losing them an important customer base. Maybe the low to mid-end of the DSLR chain is where Sony thinks it can compete hence all the DSLRs they have come out with recently in that range.</p>

[timb196]

<p>Tom:<br>

Sorry for not remembering! I too was a little disappointed that there was not more on the a77. I have a 7D, a100,a700 and a900.I no longer use the a100 and 7D. so they are going on the block for a NEX shortly. The reason I want a NEX is because I want a digital light box for my MC/MD lenses of which I have a bunch.<br>

I almost switched before the 7d came out to Canon. I have an EOS-1v hs which I occasionally use but to be honest, I never liked the Canon colors.<br>

I feel we are approaching a convergence point. It is to me, at least clear, that the line dividing still and motion photogrpahy is getting increasingly blurred. The technology is there and the user base is there. The impacts of youtube is considerable. Secondly, the increasing computational power available within the camera body is increasing almost exponentially. The film darkroom is almost gone to be replaced by the digital darkroom. The EVF technolgies are evolving. The examples are almost too numerous to mention. I like to think in terms of the print when I take a shot; so the promise of EVF does help to visualize the final product easier. I believe the zone system came out for the same exactly the same reason so photogs for decades have been looking for ways to translate the "raw lght" and scene into a final product. This is compounded by the desire for multi-media i.e the integration of motion and still visual media into a coherent product displayed on a digital viewer. The power of this concept is enormous. Look at some of the modern art museums to see examples of the merging of media and styles. Multimedia is all over the place. I see this occuring in the light box you will be holding in your hands. The point is that not too far in the distant future is that there will be largely no difference between media and it will be integrated into a single box rather than the seperate boxes we use now and the complex post processing required.<br>

As I see it, what Sony is doing or perhaps the direction they are heading is pushing this convergence point. From that point of view, I applaud it. From my standpoint, however, it seems like a fractured implementation. With the three lines: NEX, DLSR/DLST and e-mount camcorders, there appears to be a set of tools that can get to the point where a user can select the primary media emphasis point whether it be motion, stills or a combo point of view. You will be able to transfer it to your computer and finalize your product via software tools changing the original settings to suit your interpretation or emphasis as required. The idea of media tools has been around for decades. I have everything from small P&S to a 4 x 5 view camera to suit what I think I need for a given situation but that is weight and mass that needs to be carried wherever I go. The promise of the Axx is that I will not need to do have go through that planning process and carry all that weight.<br>

I'm not into video per se but I like the idea of being able to explore it and combine it as I see fit. I want to be able to tailor my image capture, merge it, extract it or combine as I see fit but I want the emphasis to be my choice. But we are not quite there yet, so for the moment I will wait on the sidelines. I have enough on my plate at the moment working on impressionistic photography media.</p>

<p>Cheeers<br>

Tim</p>

 

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mr. Chung... <br /><br />Thank you for your response. Although it was in disagreement, you made your points in a nice and gentlemanly way. That's the original spirit of Photonet. <br /><br />1. I am disappointed in Sony because I see them making some of the same mistakes many of the once-great American corporations have made in the last 20 years. In the late 60s or so I arranged through a friend of a friend to be the first retail customer in the USA to buy Sony's new to the American market portable color TV. I've bought a lot of their products over the years. Even today both TVs in my house are Sony. My VCR player is a Sony as is the "home theater" unit with the main TV. They used to be a leader in consumer electronic devices. However was I to replace many of my Sony items today I probably would end up with another brand. Not because I have a dislike for Sony, but because others have passed them by. <br /><br />At any rate, they sure dropped the ball with their DSLR line after "buying" the Minolta customer base. Think of a neighbor who buys a nice shiny new top-of-the-line automobile. Then he leaves it outside all year (even though there is room in his garage), never changes the oil, never washes it and doesn't replace the trim bits broken off in the shopping center parking lot. I might look over at that once nice car, sagging with a low (and bald) tire, covered in bird droppings, clanking and smoking as he backs out of his driveway and think "Why did he ever pay all that money to buy such a nice car if he was going to keep it like that? What a waste." <br /><br />2. " .....I am set for a while to come." Good for you. I would feel that way too if I had bought one (and I almost did). However, if I was to buy one now it would seem like buying the last Edsel** off the production line as the line shut down. <br /><br />3. "... I don't understand your bitterness towards them." That is because there is none. <br /><br />4. "Sony I believe with the A850 offer a price/quality combination that is not matched by anyone." The 850 isn't a bad camera but it is still a 900 minus. I'd rather pay the extra to have a 950 which would cure some of the faults of the 900 and have upgraded abilities. Unfortunately that doesn't look to be in the offing. <br /><br />5. "In fact I don't understand why you are waiting to jump to the 5DII." It has been out for a while. I think it would have been upgraded already except the factory was shut down and moved creating a later demand for pent up sales when the distributers were out of stock. If I bought the 5DII today I'd feel like I bought a 2010 car just before the 2011s came out. Not only would I instantly have a model years depreciation but I would have been too early to take advantage of year end sales prices. I've lived all these years on sound financial planning with few deviations into the temptation of instant gratification. That is why I own both my houses, all my cars, and all my income producing assets free and clear plus have cash in the bank while the world goes broke around me. <br /><br />6."Sounds like you are never happy with what is on offer." Sir...you have made an incorrect assumption based on insufficient data. <br /><br />**You probably do not remember the Edsel. Ford Motor Company had three brand automobile lines to compete with and cover the same price spread as GM and Chrysler who each had five. So they thought up the Edsel, even proudly naming it after a prominent Ford family member, to compete with GMs Pontiac and Olds 88, Chrysler's Dodge and lower end Desoto. Google Edsel and you will probably find that it was the most thoroughly researched major product released in America, and they spent a LOT of time and money to do that. The concept was stalled for years through indecision as the Pontiac/Dodge market sector changed and evolved along with those cars.</p>

<p>The Edsel was finally released around 1958 with great (and expensive) fanfare. It looked pretty good on the spec sheet. It offered the big Lincoln motor (think Sony full frame chip) during the horsepower race but de-cubed and de-tuned it (so as not to be as powerful as Ford's flagship Lincoln) turning it into a sluggish gas hog. The other features were cutting edge in the early 1950s when the concept was first thought up but were dated in 1958 and the competition had evolved. You can't fool all of the people all of the time. There was a recession about that time to boot. They tried to re-invent the brand on the fly but failed to win public acceptance. So, in 1961 or 1962 they wrote off their investment, having not recouped it, and shut down production. This left them short of R&D monies both in capital and credit lines to properly update their other products and had rough going for a few years.</p>

<p>Good fortune, not good planning, smiled upon them because the mass market was becoming more accepting of pick-up trucks. The Ford 150 became the best selling motor vehicle in America and was able to pay off the Easel's debts and re-capitalize the Ford Motor Company. It also provided the R&D funds to bring the other Ford products back into a competitive position. <br /><br />A. T. Burke</p>

[jemal.yarbrough]

<p>So is it a safe assumption that I should not upgrade to an A850 and move my kit from Pentax to Sony? I have an A350 and nice Minolta lenses, but I really am looking for my next Camera. Sony hasn't shown anything new. I wanted an A850 just because its full frame and I can't afford an A900. But it seems that Sony isn't really interested in the Dslr market, and trying one of its new products is not high on my list since the cost of switching is already high enough with having to buy more lenses, flashes, and the body. Pentax k-5, Nikon D7000 or an older model Sony A850. What to do, what to do...</p>

[jiun_der_chung]

<p>Jemal, what brings you to that conclusion? Just one of two people's negative opinion about Sony?</p>

<p>The A850 is not that old. You say you already have a Sony camera and Minolta lenses so you are not totally moving your kit. If you do want to have a full frame camera, as I said previously, the A850 is still the best price/quality combination available today. Whilst Pentax makes good cameras, they don't offer full frame, at least at the moment anyway. Any full frame from Canon and Nikon will cost a lot more.</p>

<p>Let me assure you, unless you are a photojournalist or sport photographer, the A850 will do everything you need. Obviously digital technology evolves very fast but on the flip side of the argument, to sit around and not buy a camera because you are hoping for something spectacular to be unveiled in the future, that is unwise also. I would personally rather have a camera in my hands which I am actually using and which meets my needs. It does depend on what you want from a camera of course, I really do think that the A850/A900/D3X etc, are the last of the purist still cameras. Because we can all see which way the technology and development is moving. And let's face it, these cameras are all so capable right now that they would meet if not exceed the requirements of most photographers, unless you are a full blown professional who requires the latest cutting edge technology.</p>

[jemal.yarbrough]

<p>Jiun,<br>

You are right, of course. I want the A850 because it is full frame and can replace my A350, which I like but has noise issues. The real issue is one of money and a future SUPPORTED upgrade path. If I stay with Pentax, I have only maybe 3 lenses to add to have a complete kit. That means the K-5 at $1700, plus about $2000 in lenses. (Not pushing pentax at all). But if I move to the A850, I have the same problem that I have with the A350, namely getting 2 flashes ($1,000), and since I only have two quality lenses (the 50mm f1.4 and 50mm f2.8 macro -I love it), I will have to purchase something in the 85-90mm range ($600-1000), and probably a fast wide zoom 15-50mm f2.8 ($700ish) and the camera it self ($1800) at a minimum. So the cost of moving is huge, just like the draw of having FF. I don't want my camera to double as a video recorder. But hey, if it did, I'd probably use it since it's always handy. But it is not a feature that I want or need. I love the fact that both Pentax and Sony have in body shake reduction. Sure mirrorless cameras may be the future, but I'm not ready to jump into that new fandangled system when I barely got my feet wet with this one. That's my problem. Sony products have always commanded a premium over the competitors, but I'm now leary of spending money when Sony seems to be going left, when I need it to go right or at the very least, keep a boat in the waters that I like sailing in. </p>

[jiun_der_chung]

<p>I hear what you are saying Jemal. At the end of the day, you'll have to decide whether the Pentax platform will offer you what you want. Yes there is a significant cost to shifting platforms, there always is, but I would still argue that you can get into the Sony FF system for less than Canon or Nikon. I personally have bought quite a lot of glass second hand for a whole lot less than retail.</p>

<p>I don't think that there is any doubt that Sony will continue to offer a supported upgrade path. They are big enough as a company and so heavily invested into the industry now. I would say that Pentax is far more likely to throw it in and sounds like they have a limited upgrade path for you. What the real question is from my point of view, is whether what Sony offers in the future is what I would personally ideally like. I suspect they won't, but that would also be true of all the manufacturers. I just don't particularly like the direction the development of the industry is going.</p>

<p>Just out of curiosity, why did you buy the A350 given that you are already using Pentax?</p>

<p>Btw, I take back what I said about Pentax not having FF. I just remembered, you can always get the Pentax 645D. I would if I had a spare $10k or so. I already have all the lenses I want for it. lol</p>

[jemal.yarbrough]

<p>I bought a Pentax because my friend recommended it to me as my first SLR. I stayed with it as a Dslr because I had lenses. <br>

I bought the A350 because I was considering a move and Circuit City was going out of business and had a stack of them for cheap. <br>

The fact that Sony has a FF camera and a backlog of excellent glass really has me considering just getting an A850. But then Nikon has the new D7000 coming out at an attractive price too.<br>

My statement about Pentax only having 3 more lenses for me is based more on what I need than a limitation in the system. When I first got into it I was addicted to buying second hand lenses and thus ended up with a bunch I didn't need or want. Now i am buying lenses based on what I actually want to shoot. So for me there is only 3 or so of the Pentax Limiteds that I would need to complete a kit. I have to some extent bought stuff that I don't need for the Sony, but far less since at best the A350 was /is my back up and walking around camera. <br>

My problem is that I don't want to get stuck with a system that is not going to be fully developed. Pentax uses the Sony sensor in the new K-5, so clearly Sony can make a stellar sensor in APS-C. I just wish they would do it or update the A850 so I can purchase a body and spend the next 2 years purchasing lenses and not having to worry about whether they will be obsolete if my camera body breaks or if there is no future upgrade path for the system.</p>