Processing Problems

[david_gardner2]

First, I posted this a couple of days ago, but for the first time I

never got any responses, nor can I find any sign of it, so I'm

thinking that it got lost in electronic limbo. My apologies if this

repeats my previous post, but I don't think it actually posted.

 

After 20 years of processing my own B+W, I'm having a problem that I

can't identify, so I'm looking for some help. Over the last year,

everything I process is 3-4 stops too thin; a roll I processed last

week was so thin that I wasn't sure at first that there was even an

image.

 

I've tried a lot of things to solve this, so let me list them as

quickly as possible:

 

- I use 3 35mm bodies and a 4x5 camera with two lens/shutter

combinations. I'm getting the same results with each.

 

- I use the in-camera 35mm meters, a handheld incident exposure meter

and a spot meter. All seem to be more or less in agreement, and

certainly not off by 3-4 stops.

 

- I use two dial thermometers. They disagree by two degrees, and I

process according to the lower temp reading.

 

- I've purchased brand new chemistry, with no change.

 

- I've tried distilled water, with no change.

 

- I've used Kodak and Ilford film; both have the same results.

 

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance

David Gardner

[Troll]

Shoot a roll of slide film and have it processed. If the slides are okay, then the problem is your processing. If they are too dark then the problem is your exposure (camera shutter/lightmeter/brain).

[gene m]

At the risk of sounding like a wiseguy I must say that whatever you got...I don't want to catch it. I suggest you follow the post regarding having someone else do your processing and see if you can learn anything. It sounds like an exposure problem to me though.

[eugene_singer]

David, it sounds like a processing problem to me. It's highly unlikely that the shutters on all of your cameras and your meter readings could be that far off. It would help to solve the problem if you could be more specific and furnish the details about the actual type of film, the type and dilution of your developer, and the method of processing you are using.

[ken_lee11]

If it turns out that a processing lab gives you good results, then the question becomes: perhaps something changed in your own methodology, unbeknownst to you.

 

Did your water change ? Whether or not you are connected to a public water supply, it may be possible that something changed which would have an effect on chemistry. Did you have any plumbing work done in your house ?

[leonard_evens]

The laws of physics and chemistry haven't changed for the rest of us, so it has to be something very special to you. But there doesn't seem to be any obvious cause from what you say. I certainly suggest that you have the film processed elsewhere to check on the processing, as someone else suggested. You should also let us know exactly which films you are developing in which developer and with which equipment. Finally, what are you doing after development? Is it possible that you are bleaching the film in a step following development?

[c_p_goerz]

Are the frame numbers on the film of normal density?

 

 

CP Goerz

[rick_jones5]

David-if I were in your shoes I would go back to the basics-think time, temperature and chemical dilutions. If your exposures are ok the answer has to be in one of those three areas. I would asume there is an error in my timer and absolutely eliminate that possibility. I would assume my developing temperature was way off and absolutely eliminate that possibility. I would assume I had made an error in mixing or diluting my chemistry and look at that VERY carefully. Even after 20 years its easy to get distracted or go brain dead when mixing and diluting. Is this why so many people are going digital?

[chad_jarvis1]

What developer? Are all the problems with the same batch of developer?

[david_gardner2]

Thanks to all the responders so far. To answer a few questions and add some more info:

 

- I also shoot C-41 and chromes regularly, and I'm having no problems with those.

 

- For B+W, I shoot Tmax 100, Tmax 400 and Ilford 100. I've been using Ilfosol, diluted 1:9; since this has been happening over the course of a year, probably not the same batch <g>. I process roll film in a stainless steel daylight tank, and sheet film in trays by hand.

 

- Re: the water issue, that was my first thought, which is why I tried distilled water.

 

- Re: the temp/timing/dilutions, those were my second thoughts, which is why I bought a second dial thermometer. I haven't checked the accuracy of my timer, so that bears investigation, but I have tried +25% and +50% development times, with little or no change. I use a graduate for mixing, and the math is fairly simple.

 

- After development, I use a stop bath, then a water rinse, and then fix. After fixing, I slip the film into a suitable containing of photoflo solution, rinse and hang.

 

- Re: frame numbers, that is a great question, and I'll check when I get home.

 

- The only thing that has changed in my methodology that I'm aware of is the addition of a pre-soak step, which I started doing when I started in large format. For the first year or so, processing was still fine, and my guess would be that, if a pre-soak affected things in any way, it would go the other way, i.e. processing would be more complete and uniform, resulting in a darker negative instead of a lighter one.

 

Thanks again for the responses.

 

David

[jerry_breault]

Is the developer less than 6 months old? Ilford states a lifetime of 24 months unopened and 4 months is a half full bottle. If you call Ilford, they'll decode the date code on the bottle and tell you how old it is.

 

Do you dilute directly from the bottle just before use, or do you keep pre-diluted stock on hand? Once mixed, the life of the developer is dramatically shortened.

 

Do you store it in Ilford's container, or do you transfer the solution to another container? Not all containers are created equal.

 

Jerry

[eugene_singer]

David, as you and I discussed off of this forum, I suspect that your developer is no longer working. Ilfosol-S has a very short shelf life, to begin with, and you had no control over the age of the product when you purchased it. Who knows how long it was sitting on the dealer's shelf? Try mixing a one liter package of Ilford Microphen powder film developer (less than $3 from B&H) in distilled water. Dilute it 1:1 with distilled water when you are ready to process. The developing times for the films you use are available at ilford.com. Look under the tech, sheet for Microphen. I think your problem will be solved.

[brian_ellis3]

I can't imagine that this alone would cause the kind of negatives you describe but FWIW I seem to recall that Ilford recommends against a presoak for its films.

 

Have you used different packages of the developer for your working solution, i.e. although all the working solutions have been fresh, are you working out of the same box (or jar, I forget how Ilfosol is packaged?). Since this doesn't occur with color film, clearly the problem is in the processing rather than the exposure. And the only thing I can think of in the processing that would cause the problem you describe, considering the fact that it occurs with both tray and tank, is the developer itself. I've read that excessive fix can bleach film but I wouldn't think bleaching would show up as you've described your negatives.

 

These kind of things can drive you crazy. I had a similar experience with PMK - I'd develop two or three rolls of 220 film at the same time, one or two would be fine and the third would be so thin it couldn't be printed. Working solution mixed at the same time from the same source, developed for the same time, same water, same darkroom, same me, sometimes in a two roll tank where one roll would be fine and the other would be unprintable, sometimes three rolls in three separate single roll tanks to eliminate the possible problem of insufficient capacity in the two roll tank. I tried everything and never could figure it out - one of the many reasons I abandoned PMK.

[j.w.]

Forgive me for sounding like a know-it-all, but I had a somewhat similar problem just a week ago, only with paper developer. I had some pre-mixed paper developer, stored without contact with air, but I knew it was probably getting close to being exhausted. After doing a test print, I had absolutely no change in paper density from virgin white. I rechecked temperature, decided to pour the tray's contents into a plastic beaker and microwave it up to 72, then retried another test strip. Nothing. Not a bit of density change. To eliminate exposure as an issue, I took the next test strip and fogged the hell out of it under a bright desk lamp. Into the soup...nothing, not a bit of density.

 

So, I figured it was just exhausted developer, so I mixed another batch from the bottle (it was Ilford liquid paper developer). The contents of the bottle had precipitated out into a white powdery layer in the bottle's bottom. I tried shaking/aggitating the bottle, but the chunks wouldn't dissolve back into solution. I figured I was sunk, would have to go to the camera store and buy some more developer, but that would have to wait till the next day.

 

In the meantime, I went ahead and tried mixing up another batch with what I had. First test strip, nothing...finally, I poured the contents of the tray back into the beaker, and stirred the solution real good for several more minutes (I had mixed it up upon dilution, I thought 'good enough'). Back into the tray...viola!...a good test strip. I had saved the original 'bad' working solution in a plastic cup...I went ahead and stirred/agitated it real good, too. Viola...it started working, too!

 

Lessons:

1)Even though you've gotten away with 'short cuts' in the past (like using used developer with good results in the past), never assume anything. There's reasons why the manufacturer says it should be done a certain way. Probably because they had similar problems during product development.

 

2)Proper mixing of solution is critical, even if you've gotten away in the past with pouring the concentrate developer in the distilled water beaker and calling the pouring action 'sufficient agitation'. Stir the solution for at least 30 seconds continuously, even with liquid developers that 'just' need to be diluted with water.

 

A final thing to consider is housekeeping/cross-contamination issues. You may know that acids will neutralize the effect of your developer. Some acetic or other acid splashed into the wrong container or labware can give you fits. Sanitize ALL of your darkroom labware with bleach water, then thoroughly rinse until the bleach odor is completely gone. This includes trays, tongs, beakers, film reel/tank, etc.

 

Several summers ago I was in the darkroom, working on a print. It was hot in there. I have a little portable fan for some cooling, but it stirs up dust, so I had to live with the heat. I started sweating. My perspiration is acidic (I know...too much information...), and a drop fell into the paper developer tray (a small 5x7 tray). Sure enough, after that my prints started looking real thin and underexposed. I had to dump the developer and mix a new batch.

 

Personal Lesson: In the hot summer, do darkroom work at night, when the garage (where the darkroom is located) ain't so hot. These days I have an insulated garage door, so the place doesn't get nearly as hot as with the old metal, south-facing door in the summer New Mexico sun.

 

In general, don't take for granted proper mixing of chemicals, and cross-contamination/cleanliness issues. You may find your culprit there.

[david_gardner2]

Thanks to all who contributed, and we have a winner <g>.

 

To the person who advised me to try Microphen, I will at some point, but neither of the stores relatively near me carried it. I went with Microdol X, shot a test roll with some shots of a density card, and processed. these shots came out great.

 

The moral of the story, apparently, is don't buy Ilfosol S without first calling Ilford and verifying the date. I've purchased new bottles of Ilfosol twice during my attempts to solve this issue, and used each within a weak, with the same results. If the shelf life is as low as was reported, it just doesn't have much use for the average, low volume photographer.

 

Thanks again.

 

David

[jonathan_borden]

FWIW, I've used PMK solutions which are several years old without problems - particularly the pyro solution A, the metaborate solution B can be mixed up more frequently. I'd previously been using Xtol, D-76 etc. but having this long lasting solution is so convenient ... and in the long run so low cost, that I've switched to PMK for all my roll film -- I use ABC for sheet film (to keep this message on topic for LF :-)