My Conclusions of the Sony Alpha, Future Looks Good

[james_frater]

Well I think from what I have seen from just reading the "dpreview" review,

the initial release model looks like a winner from Sony. And I am eagerly

awaiting higher level models.

 

The people who jumped off the Minolta band wagon and set fire to them, I think

will be having some guilty feelings about the fire sale of their gear.

 

After looking at their first release model, it has rejuvinated my thoughts and

efforts with regards to all my current gear, the fact that my Minolta gear

will live on with Sony in so many ways.

 

I still love the feel and control of the 7D, the dials are perfect on the 7D,

and with the grip added, feels like a real pro camera. So I hope Sony builds

on the KM 7D camera later.

 

I feel Sony has come out with a camera that lies between the 5D & 7D, and has

so many KM features still there, that it will more than make the Minolta users

happy from the start about their future.

 

To sum up, they have created a camera that

 

- Takes my lenses

- Takes my flash

- Takes my cable release

 

I am more than happy, and the price for what you get, I feel smashes anything

else on the market for "spec for price" ratio.

 

The Sony push for world domination is on.

[peterblaise]

.

 

Agreed.

 

I wonder if Sony will release cheaper models, too, without AS Anti Shake, er, SSSS Sonny Super Steady Shot.

 

And, of course, full frame anyone?

 

This is, after all, only ONE camera, and I fully expect a LINE, and not just a chronological updating of ONE camera over time.

 

And the wish list ALWAYS calls for a digital full frame Minolta SR/MC/MD/X-600-mount camera, but perhaps only one cry per year (month?) is needed until that comes true, rather than carrying on every week about not having one. I LOVE my Minolta SR/MC/MD/X-600 lenses and would like to skip the film/developing/scanning steps to bring their offering into the digital domain! Oh well, I don't think it's just me, but someone has to figure out a way to do it for the older gear ... WAAAHH! I'm sorry, was my crying distracting? Sorry!

 

Click!

 

Love and hugs,

 

Peter Blaise peterblaise@yahoo.com Minolta Alpha Photographer ... STILL! ;-) http://www.peterblaisephotography.com/

 

PS - I still wish Sony had called it the 101! =8^o

[peter_evans4]

Me, I might be interested in a digital full frame Konica AR mount body.

[weatherman]

I agree this is really good news for us, existing users. I felt same way. Happy that minolta are fully alive albeit under another name and are even evolving..

[chris_harley1]

Well done Sony, I'm sure that Cannon are interested and Nikon worried.The price and spec are excellent a real competitor to the Nikon

DSLR's.Personally I would still like to see full-frame, ISO 50 for my Landscape interests.If that were to happen then I'm sure even Cannon would take note.

Also glad to see that the SSM lenses I haven't been able to get hold of yet should be available later in the year.Glass half empty wonders if this means that Sony aren't jumping in with both feet until they can gauge a market response to their camera, half full hopes that this means a more prosumer camera is being readied for later in the year.

Anyway this looks like a great camera can't wait to read full reviews.

[bjmarkowitz]

I dont think you will see a model without AS (SSSS). I think that feature is such a selling point that sepperates the Sony from Canon/Nikon that they will leave it on all models.

 

To me, I think this camera is a supped up version of the 5D, which for me, is EXACTLY, what I want. I was/am a HTSIPlus and 5 shooter in film and would not know what to do with the extras of the film 7 or 9. For me, leaving Minolta for Canon/Nikon digital would have been easy: not much invested in lenses or flashes. However, now, the Sony Alpha allows me to have 10mp, AS(SSSS), use my few lenses (not my flash as I have the non-ADI 5600HS), and still have the same feel as my old cameras. I am psyched!!!! My only regret is my wife said I have to wait till Hanukah to get it.

 

All that said, I have used the film 7 with the verticle grip once, and thought that was a great feature. Sony should have incorporated one into this camera.

[robert_paul1]

According to the press release, Sony is planning to produce 80,000 A100 bodies a month.

[m.l]

Looking at the line-up of the lenses I draw the conclusion that a FF-body is on it's way. Why would Sony still manufacture so many full frame lenses if there are no plans to go full frame with the DSLR's?!

The A-100 sure is quite a big improvement. Although it lacks the robustness and functionality of the 7D, it has some features that the 7D lacks (mirror lock-up?). The CCD-cleaning, B&W option, extended zoom function on the camera screen, zooming in on RAW images are a plus, compared to the 7D. A battery grip would help a lot imho, as the camera is somewhat small and light at this moment. Will there be a battery grip??

Good work Sony, and I am looking forward to the a-200 :-)

[craig_gillette]

I read these various threads and I wonder if some of the posters have ever even seen the KM cameras or followed what KM or Sony have done for the last several years.

 

There isn't going to be a KM or Sony dslr using the old MD lenses. Won't happen - unless Phoenix does it. Don't hold your breath. Sony continues with the same lenses KM has had for a while and all of a sudden it's clear evidence that a full frame camera is on the way? (As opposed to a gappy line-up for the smaller sensor line? And look at the "Zeiss" lens on the horizon? It's a great walk around range - for an APS-C camera.) I think the best thing to do is closely read the announcements - literally, not as some kind of veiled augury from the gods, buy and use the cameras you like - and not try to read anything into any of the tweaks or twinges in products, typos, strange translations or anything else.

 

This has all the earmarks of both raisng the entry level bar substantially - and slowing the price crash as well. We'll know what they really do when full reviews and tests hit the streets. I for one, will wait to see how flashes do when people start using them. Fit didn't help all that much for the 7D although it seems the 5D did some better. If all they've done is rebadge them, then, that's all they've done. There's no hint that older flashes will work with the new cameras, or that the new flashes will work with the old cameras. there'sn o data yet on the lenses, they may well be the same-old same-old, which is in many cases, not bad at all. But the line gaps bother me, not as a full-frame indicator but just for the gaps for the APS-C user. Do they really expect all users to want the 18-70 which has been described as a toy in some reviews? or that they'll jump to the "Kilo-buck" G series lenses?

 

One can't argue it's not a good evolutionary step but it's still only the first step.

 

The 7D doesn't lock up the mirror per se but does flip it up with the timer on 2 second self-timed setting.

[robert_paul1]

Craig, only Peter has brought up the question of Sony coming out with a DSLR using the old MC/MD lens mount. Matjin, and I, in another forum question, asked why Sony has lenses that are suited for a full-size sensor DSLR. In my case, I asked why would Sony have a 16mm f2.8 fisheye, that on a APS-C sensor DSLR would become the equivalent of a 24mm f2.8? If Sony wanted a fisheye lens (180 degrees corner to corner) that filled the full frame of an APS-C DSLR, they would have to come out with a 10mm-11mm lens like Nikon did. The amount of barrel distortion the 16mm has, when used on an APS-C sensor DSLR, is not very useful. A 24mm lens, on a 35mm film camera is not an 'ultra-wide' angle lens like Sony says on their website. So, it doesn't make much sense to have it.

 

If Sony's future in DSLRs, is only going to be APS-C sensors, why not start with a clean slate like Olympus did with their 4/3 cameras? They could have made their lenses smaller and lighter, but they didn't, so this raises the question- 'Is Sony going to come out with a full-sized sensor DSLR?'

 

Either Sony is planning something, or they don't know much about photography.

[craig_gillette]

Look at what Minolta and then KM was offering in lenses over the past several years for film Maxxums. All the classic lenses were developed and used with the the Maxxum film cameras, and the high end lenses with the pro level Maxxums (the 9s of various sorts and others too). Of course they "fit" a full frame application and line - that's what film was. These are what the loyalists have always pointed to as "proof" Minolta was competing with the big boys. It's a legacy line, just like much of Nikon's and Canon's. The "new" lenses are there to cover the wide end at a reasonably affordable price.

 

The point is, hyperventilating and hyperguessing over the restart of the line is trying to read too much into little things and isn't likely to be productive. There are only a couple of moderately comprehensive previews. We don't have full insight into the production specs or performance yet. It's hardly time to declare victory.

 

Things will happen if and when Sony and/or KM decide they will. Is full-frame desirable? Of course. If a sensor, preferably with anti-shake, can be put together in an affordable package (and what passes for affordable for dedicated pro's is often wildly different from affordable for a consumer), then we would likely see it.

 

The future sensor developments may be such that superlative performance can be achieved on the smaller sensor (APS-C type sizes although if that tech arrives, there would be no reason not to port it to smaller digicams). There is no inkling of that necessarily happening and there are certainly limitations to current technology, however, the costs of larger dies remains higher than smaller dies. That might make full frame size sensors less desirable or make the performance of many current lenses questionable.

 

Sony has made a good first step. But Minolta and KM made a number of major technological leaps as well, film and digital, sometimes leading the way, sometimes a little behind the leading edge but raising the performance/price bar. But technological competence at a laggardly pace or poorly supported won't make them successful. Poor business decisions may still cripple progress. Something we've seen from KM and Sony before. The anti-Sony people will undoubtedly trot out all of these "mistakes" again and again.

 

The MD foray would be an orthogonal - and unlikely, when someone has pointed out recently, Sony is trying to return to well defined core competencies.

[ilkka]

It may not be a confirmed success yet, but it is sure a big victory compared with the past few months where many people lost faith in this whole project. I am happy I waited. I will not buy this A100, I want something bigger, but I feel now much more confident that Sony will come up with new models both to the cheaper and more expensive end of the range. I can easily wait another six months to a year.

 

I wonder if the new Zeiss lenses work on old Minolta bodies like Dynax 7 (and 7D). The fast 85 and 135 are interesting.

[robert_paul1]

Craig, you seem to confusing the 'MD' Legacy line of lenses with the Dynax/Maxxum (AF) lenses. The 'MD' lenses are the manual-focus lenses that fit the SRT101, X-700, and other such cameras. The Dynax/Maxxum mount-line is what Sony bought from K/M. Peter B.,was talking about Sony coming out with a DSLR camera that would use the 'MD' lenses.

 

Martjin and I are talking about the auto-focus lenses. Again, I'll ask, why would Sony need to have a 16mm f2.8, 180 degree Ultra-wide FISHEYE lens, if they have no plans to come out with a DSLR that uses a 24X36mm sensor? It makes no sense, as far as I can see. You couldn't use it as it was designed to be used, on an APS-C sensor DSLR. Sony could be accused of false advertising for calling it a 'FISHEYE' ultra-wide angle lens. As it would be the equivalent of a 24mm lens when used on the new Sony DSLR, it would be considered a 'wide-angle' lens, not an 'ultra-wide angle fisheye' lens.

[james_frater]

People seem to not understand evolution, in specific evolution of digital camera's.

 

DSLR's are becoming more common place, more and more models are hitting the market from makers other than the big guns such as Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc. Now Panasonic, etc, etc are releasing cameras.

 

The plan is to get bigger and better, larger sensors, more megapixels. Like usual, prices will come down as more people buy and technologies are developed to make these things cheaper.

 

All makers in the future will make 35mm sensors and larger sensors, if not already. They have already on the market medium format digital camera sensors.

 

I used to think why not just name the lense correctly. But the thing is KM 7D & 5D sensors are bigger than Olympus sensors and even certain makes of Nikon and Canon.

 

Just look as the specs for different models to see the variation in sensor size. Naming focal length really is a non issue.

[tmorgan]

Ilkka,

<br><br>

According to the

<a href="http://www.zeiss.de/C1256A770030BCE0/WebViewAllE/

D863E2F9C4EB0C5DC125718500227B87">press release</a>, yes the Zeiss lenses will

work with the film bodies.

<br><br>

From the press release:

<br><br>

"Although designed primarily for current and future Sony DSLR cameras, most Carl Zeiss

ZA lenses - except the Vario-Sonnar T* DT 3,5-4,5/16-80 ZA - cover the full 35 mm

frame and are therefore compatible with existing Alpha-mount cameras in the market.

These include the well-known Minolta Dynax and Maxxum SLRs, both digital and analog."

<br><br>

&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp ...Tom M

[craig_gillette]

I've been using Minolta products for 30 years. I started with an SRT-102. I am well familiar with the product line. Read what I wrote. I wrote - there will be no dslr for the MD line unless Phoenix makes it. That's my guess. I'm not predicting based on inside knowledge - so I won't tell you the new 7D, 9D family cameras are in the containers and on the way and that I'll talk to people at PMA.

 

The bulk of the Maxxum lens line will support full frame not because they expect a full frame dslr sensor but because they are legacy lenses from when Maxxum was a film camera. In a nutshell, ith current technology, the "full frame" sensor offers the potential to have both high resolution and large picture sites, it would be desirable to have a full frame sensor. If and when one becomes available in quantites and prices suitable for use in a saleable camera. A pro camera could be sold at higher prices and in more limited quantities. The lenses would be there to support it. Technology could swing towards improved performance on smaller sensors - keeping prices down and making them more available t a general market. I don't pretend to know which way Sony would go under those conditions. There is no reason to redesign the lenses to support the small sensor.

 

That fisheye lens is from 1986. The lens collection we have just seen "announced" may reflect build out of existing lens pieces and parts as well as convenient line starts as much as anything else. That could explain the odd choices and/or "gaps" until things ramp up. But I'm not about to consider that lens as an indicator that the full frame camera is on the boat.

[peterblaise]

.

 

Wandering off topic, but this is a perennial thread:

 

DSLR for Minolta MANUAL FOCUS SR/MC/MD/X-600 lenses

 

Phoenix? Who's Phoenix? Do you mean Seagull, Minolta's China Optical company? They released their current SLR issue as PENTAX-K-compatible! What were they thinking? Oh, WE already have our Minolta-style SR/MC/MD/X-600-lens compatible SLRs and WE know the used market well. It's NEWBIES who are looking for a cheap, entry level manual 35mm camera for photo class, and Pentax-K-compatable is the easiest sell!

 

Korean Phoenix ne Samyang, and also the final gasps of Vivitar, is kind of out of the SLR and SLR-lenses game. Does anyone have a current reference for their "official" web sites? Samyang shows only their three T-mount 500mm and longer lenses. The Phoenix and Vivitar that I find in stores is limited to available stock, no new supplies - Korea has gone digital! Soligor, Kalimar, Jessops, Dakota and other "your name here" resellers" got from - where - Samyang, Seagull or Cosina?

 

Cosina Japan makes M-rangefinder bodies for Epson who puts in the digital electronics, and I imagine that Cosina will eventually run out of people willing to buy their Voiglander and Zeiss M-rangefinder film bodies. Cosina, the last SUCCESSFUL film hold out, will have to go digital or make lenses for other people's cameras only. I see a Zeiss M-digital on the horizon, can a Voiglander M-digital be far behind? Leica promises an M-digital, so Cosina MUST follow or die. So, Cosina is probably the most likely source for a MANUAL FOCUS DSLR, but, as I speculate, I imagine they will make M-rangefinder digitals under the Voiglander and Zeiss names.

 

A MANUAL FOCUS DSLR is probably NOT on anyone's horizon, especially since there are already 2 rather complete OFFICIAL (original manufacturer) lines of MANUAL FOCUS DSLRs out there:

 

- Nikon

 

and

 

- Pentax

 

... though they aren't making manual focus lenses anymore.

 

Unless we organize a MINOLTA MANUAL FOCUS UNION and clamor en ma$$e, I see no possible motivation for ANY vendor to make a Minolta-SR/MC/MD/X-600-lens-fit DSLR especiallly if NO ONE IS MAKING ANY NEW LENSES! Okay, Tamron Adaptall are still available, and Cosina makes a "premium" SL line for Minolta MD lenses in Nikon reverse focus (damn Nikon) turning.

 

Since there's manual stop-down-merering adapters to the 4/3rds digital system, no vendor thinks anyone would want a dedicated, Minolta-style-SR/MC/MD/X-600-lens-ONLY digital camera body. much less a full frame body. Not yet, and the longer anyone waits for the prices of source materials to come down, the more of us Minolta manual focus afficianados find digital capture alternatives and become non-customers for a Minolta manual focus DSLR. Loose, loose.

 

So, I keep shooting what I've got and scan on my Minolta DiMage Scan Elite 5400 II - still a few steps removed from the digital domain, but at least I have non-crashable non-digital backups of my images! ;-)

 

Click!

 

Love and hugs,

 

Peter Blaise peterblaise@yahoo.com Minolta .A. to SR T to HiMatic to X-series ... and Minolta Alpha and DiMage Photographer http://www.peterblaisephotography.com/

[robert_paul1]

Craig, once again you miss the point of my inquiry- why does Sony have a 16mm Fisheye, if they have no plans to come out with a DSLR that would have a full-size sensor?

 

If they have no plans for a full-sized sensor DSLR, they would have been better served to come out with a 10-11mm f2.8 fisheye, like Nikon did. As it stands, the 16mm is not very useful as a 'FISHEYE' to an owner of the Sony A100. A 'fisheye' lens has an angle of view of 180 degrees, either in a circular format, or from corner-to-corner like the 16mm does. When used on the A100 (or 5D or 7D), the 16mm is not a 'fisheye' lens, but a 24mm lens with a heck of a lot of barrel distortion.

 

In addition, instead of keeping the 300mm f2.8 from K/M, why not keep the 200m f2.8, which when used on the A100, would be the equivalent of a 300mm on a 35mm film camera. The 200mm is smaller and lighter than the 300mm, and is also less expensive.

 

If Sony has no plans to come out with a full-sized sensor DSLR, they could have come out with a clean slate line-up of lenses, like Olympus did with their Evolt 4:3 format line of DSLRs. They could of saved the buyers of their new A100, a lot of money, not to mention weight in their camera bag. This would have given them more leverage in the battle for DSLR buyers.

[robert_paul1]

<<Naming focal length really is a non issue>>

 

Jimmy, I wholly agree with you on this. However, Sony chose to name their 16mm as a 'Fisheye'. By doing so, it implies certain things that their A100 cannot deliver. Only a full-sized sensor DSLR can produce a 'fisheye' image with the lens.

[bjmarkowitz]

Dumb question, but why cant an aps sized sensor produce a fisheye effect?

 

As for whether SONY will make a FF sensor version, that will probably depend on sales of the A100. If Sony believes they can compete with Canon, they will bring one to market. Chances are closer to Christmas.

[ilkka_nissila]

They need to make FF lenses on APS-sized sensors because the anti-shake is based on the larger circle of coverage. It would not work on a FF sensor. So we can be pretty sure there will never be a FF Sony DSLR.

[craig_gillette]

Why don't you find Eugene or KM SEA and ask them why Sony rebadged an old film line lens? I can't tell you why they did it. What I can tell you again is that this is not a whole "new" line of lenses. Comparisons are easily done at Michael Hohner's site:

http://www.mhohner.de/minolta/lenses.php

 

With a limited number of exceptions, these come from the Maxxum line up and that originated with film cameras. So the focal lengths and zoom ranges for many of the lenses reflect use on film cameras. That means that they will "fit" well with a full frame sensor. It doesn't mean that there will necessarily be a full frame sensor any time soon. I didn't say there wouldn't be. I didn't say there will never be. But Sony hasn't said there is going to be one yet.

 

This grasping at straws and trying to make more of what is there and is announced through real sources is what people did when Eugene and KM Sea tossed little qualified scraps out there. Now somebody is claiming Eugene foretold the end of KM and others suggest he's KM Sea. Well KM Sea obviously didn't see the train coming because his last predictions were about the shipping and imminent delivery of a couple of new KM cameras and a presence at PMA. Which could mean a number of things but maybe mostly he'd forgotten he'd predicted the end of KM.

 

There is no definite reason to not expect a full frame sensor - Sony has not said they will never offer a full frame sensor. Nor is it conclusive that the a mount won't accomodate anti-shake and full-frame. Which could certainly mean that if the highest level decisions have been to maintain anti-shake (and by incorporating anti-dust with it) as a valuable system feature, then if they aren't compatible, going to full-frame at the cost of anti-shake may be off the table. But decisions of this magnitude are kept close.

 

I'd be happy to see a full frame camera, so would the Nikon community. But wanting it and seeing the technical advantages (and added costs) won't necessarily translate into getting it quickly. We can all see that Sony kept to their basic original "Summer" schedule for their camera even after the later changes to/with KM. So if there is a full frame sensor around the corner, it's probably comng at the same speed it was before.

[ilkka_nissila]

Craig, it is 100% certain the existing lenses won't allow FF and anti-shake. They're designed for FF film and a movement of say 5 mm off axis will generate a 5 mm area of black in the edge of a frame. Which is not exactly what one would like in photos, I assume.

[robert_paul1]

<<Dumb question, but why cant an aps sized sensor produce a fisheye effect?>>

 

Brian, an APS-S sized sensor CAN produce a fisheye effect, but you need a shorter lens. Due to the 1.5X factor of using an APS-C sized sensor, K/M's, and now Sony's, 16mm fisheye produces an image with the angle of view of a 24mm lens (when compared to a 35mm camra). Nikon came out with a lens of either 10mm or 11mm, I can't remember which, that gave a 180 degree corner-to-corner image, when used with their DSLRs. If you bought the Olympus Evolt 4:3 DSLR, you would need a lens that is 8mm to achieve the fisheye effect due to the fact that their sensor has a 2X effect. On the other end, their 300mm lens gives the same angle of view as a 600mm on a 35mm camera. It gives you a 600mm effect, in the same space and weight as a 300mm, because it is a 300mm lens.

 

As it stands now, the Sony 16mm Fisheye, does not give a 'fisheye' image when used with their A100, or K/M's 5D and 7D.

[robert_paul1]

Craig, if you go to the following webpage, you'll see that KM SEA made a statement on dpreview, that alluded to K/M ending their presence in the photo business. This was done last year, after the annoucement of the jointly developed DSLR by Sony and K/M, and before K/M closed down in Canada.

 

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1035&message=14484146

 

When I first read it last year, I had a feeling that he was talking about K/M selling the photo business to Sony. This is why I believe that KM SEA (aka Eugene Cunningham), had insider information. But, he was chased off this forum. At least, he always said that the 'Pro' DSLR would be a Full-sized sensor camera.